How are we feeling about Superman? (HEAVY SPOILERS)

[Rory]

I'm surprised I've not seen a thread about this so far! The new Superman is out and there's a twist that the Dragon Ball fan in me was really taken aback by.
By the way Superman is a great movie so if you're not seen it, please see it!

Spoiler:

It's not so much a retcon, as this is a new established continuity, however there's something really strange about the Jor-El/Bardock story coming full Circle:

• Originally we have Jor-El and Lara sending their son Clark (originally Kal-El) to Earth to protect him from their dying planet. He then becomes its greatest protector.

• In Toriyama's subversion, Gokuu (originally Kakarott) is sent to Earth from their dying planet. He then becomes its greatest protector. The twist? He was sent there to conquer this planet, and it was luck that he avoided his planet's destruction.

• Years later, we have the Toiryama retcon - Goku being sent to Earth was indeed by his loving parents. It was to save him after all. Now have a much stronger connection to the clear inspiration.

And what happens now? We have the reveal that Jor-El and Lara sent their son to conquer Earth! We got peanut butter in our chocolate! We got chocolate in our peanut butter!

So what do you guys think? Is this an intentional nod? I'd be lying if I said I was well versed in Superman lore, I mostly know him from the Reeve movies and the 90's-00's DC Animated series - but I'd be really shocked to hear that this was a complete coincidence. Maybe it's just an inevitable twist - if you write enough Superman stories, you need to try this version eventually. Either way, I'd be interested to hear how you guys felt about this one.

[Grimlock]

I'm feeling Bardock should become the brilliant scientist he's fated to be.

[JulieYBM]

I also really loved Superman (2025). As a gal with some experience with the comics, I remember reading the storyline where Jor-El was brought from just before his death to Earth and spent some time captured and experiencing human cruelty first hand before eventually meeting up with his full-grown son and having a sour outlook on humanity. I don't know how much of this Dan Jurgens-written storyline had an affect on James Gunn's writing, but I wouldn't be surprised.

In terms of the 2025 film by itself, though, I really liked the way that the change in characterization for Jor-El and Lara allows the film to have its anti-colonial and found family messages better. It really ties into the theme of who we are having a strong self-determination element. When you look back at the original depiction of Son Gokuu coming to Earth and his supposed Saiyan brutality being erased by the head injury that he sustains, it really paints Gokuu's arc in a somewhat lame fashion lol.

As a fan of the Dragon Ball Super: Broly version of Gokuu's origin, I like how Bardock sending Gokuu to Earth is an extension of his own arc in that Bardock has grown tired and weary of the Saiyan way and wonders if it might not be possible to be something different. Bardock will never not be a killer and a soldier for a colonizing state, but perhaps his son can have a clean slate in that regard to make something more of himself. I think that's a pretty relatable message, sci-fi gunk notwithstanding.

Do I know for sure that Superman (2025) was directly inspired by Dragon Ball? I do not. I do know that Gunn is a fan of tokusatsu and anime, though, so I would not be surprised at all if he is aware of the similarities between the two projects. Given how much press there has been for Superman (2025) in Japan—at least going by my Twitter feed, lol—I am curious to see if it might serve as some sort of influence on future Dragon Ball projects, too.

[Rory]

I'm feeling Bardock should become the brilliant scientist he's fated to be.

It took me far too long to realise that referring to Bardock as a scientist was almost certainly a Superman nod (otherwise what's the point of the line).

Bardock will never not be a killer and a soldier for a colonizing state, but perhaps his son can have a clean slate in that regard to make something more of himself.

I will always prefer the original version of Bardock - The story is so dramatically powerful and has always shaken me to my core. The fact that he never truly changed - it was too late for change, and this power he was given was a curse. I love that he accomplished absolutely nothing. For Dragon ball that's such a disturbing and relatable fear.
That being said - I think there's a lot to enjoy about your interpretation. As I get older I feel I'm becoming more sentimental, and the idea of "It's too late for me, but not for you" does carry a lot of weight to me now. Maybe I don't love that it's Bardock, but it's a story worth telling.

Do I know for sure that Superman (2025) was directly inspired by Dragon Ball? I do not. I do know that Gunn is a fan of tokusatsu and anime, though, so I would not be surprised at all if he is aware of the similarities between the two projects. Given how much press there has been for Superman (2025) in Japan—at least going by my Twitter feed, lol—I am curious to see if it might serve as some sort of influence on future Dragon Ball projects, too.

I wasn't aware he was a fan of tokusatsu, that's genuinely cool to know! I'd say if he's well versed enough in Japanese entertainment to be a fan of tokusatsu, that almost solidifies my feeling that this take on the character is at least an acknowledgement.

[JulieYBM]

I will always prefer the original version of Bardock - The story is so dramatically powerful and has always shaken me to my core. The fact that he never truly changed - it was too late for change, and this power he was given was a curse. I love that he accomplished absolutely nothing. For Dragon ball that's such a disturbing and relatable fear.
That being said - I think there's a lot to enjoy about your interpretation. As I get older I feel I'm becoming more sentimental, and the idea of "It's too late for me, but not for you" does carry a lot of weight to me now. Maybe I don't love that it's Bardock, but it's a story worth telling.

Hopefully this comes across legibly:

I think what makes Bardock hit so hard for me in Dragon Ball Super is that I've been where he is in the sense of just being really tired of everything he's ever tried to live for and as. I've grown up—ostensibly—and been through a lot of shit. I can look back and go, "God, I wish I had done things differently" over a sizable portion of my life. It was enough to completely upend my life by coming out of the closet, after all. So, I feel like I can look at Bardock in that movie and go, "Yeah, this is a really real feeling that Bardock is experiencing and hits as a lot more relatable in that respect of wanting to keep going and live a better life."

Basically, estrogen would have fixed Bardock.

Okay, okay, that and I just think in general, at my age, I'm not really looking for—for lack of a better term—'faux-edginess' in my stories. Like, ain't nothing edgier than being trans and bi, so I don't really need big, cold ideas like, "the Saiyans are all just pure evil and Bardock's fate is a cruel joke, for he would never be able to change no matter what" or whatever. It's been a few years since I watched the original TV special, lol. Both Bardocks die—not an issues for me, given their misdeeds—but I think what I find more interesting is that sort of peace that Bardock comes to with himself that's present in the movie. I'm not sure how much of this was something that Toriyama was even conscious of when writing the script—or if maybe Director Nagamine Tatsuya changed the script himself while storyboarding—but I think the Bardock elements there really click well.

Additonally, I don't subscribe to the idea that nobody can change or should be arbitrarily denied the opportunity to try and change. The Bardock of Dragon Ball Super won't ever make his mistakes go away, but I do kind of wonder what kind of story one might come up with if Bardock was mysteriously plucked away from his death and given the opportunity to live a life after those realizations he made and after sending that toddler of his off to try something new with his life.

I wasn't aware he was a fan of tokusatsu, that's genuinely cool to know! I'd say if he's well versed enough in Japanese entertainment to be a fan of tokusatsu, that almost solidifies my feeling that this take on the character is at least an acknowledgement.

Yeah, Gunn's apparently quite into Kamen Rider, for instance. When I was watching Peacemaker, I could not help but feel like The Vigilante's suit had some degree of Kamen Rider influence, given how sleak it looks.

[MasenkoHA]

For what it’s Superman 2025 isn’t the first Superman adaptation to bring up the idea that Clark was sent to conquer earth. Smallville had it as a plot point way back in 2002 but I think eventually retconned it out as a misunderstanding or something.

Granted, I can buy James Gunn is a Dragon Ball fan and maybe even inspired by it. I doubt the writers of Smallville knew anything about Dragon Ball other than “that dumb violent Japanese cartoon my kids/nieces and nephews watch”

[JulieYBM]

For what it’s Superman 2025 isn’t the first Superman adaptation to bring up the idea that Clark was sent to conquer earth. Smallville had it as a plot point way back in 2002 but I think eventually retconned it out as a misunderstanding or something.

Granted, I can buy James Gunn is a Dragon Ball fan and maybe even inspired by it. I doubt the writers of Smallville knew anything about Dragon Ball other than “that dumb violent Japanese cartoon my kids/nieces and nephews watch”

Gunn is familiar with Smallville, too, given that he is friends with Michael Rosenbaum, the actor for Lex Luthor. That Jor-El plotline kind of just gets glossed over the longer the series goes on. The Jor-El AI—fittingly played by Terrance Stamp, known for playing General Zodd in the Christopher Reeve films—briefly mentions, "Hey, you're the one who wants to try being a hero instead" to Clark, if memory serves, but yeah, it seems like this was something ignored in the later seasons as the newer showrunners were trying to make Smallville feel less like its own thing and closer to the Reeve films. It was weird, yeah.

In My Adventures With Superman, Jor-El isn't a conquer, but Krypton is a colonizing world.

[Hellspawn28]

I haven't seen the new Superman yet because of time, money, and me being iffy about it. The movie looks like it will be adapting All Star Superman, and I always found that comic to be overrated. I also feel like they are trying to rehash that Superman 1-2 nostalgia. I'm so sick of those two movies being the go-to guide on how to adapt the character. There are so many ways to adapt Superman without using those movies. I like the shows like My Adventures with Superman as it focus more on the human side of Superman than how powerful he is. Superman bores me if it's just him being strong all the time. Both the boy scout Superman and "dark and edgy" (using these terms loosely) Superman are both cringy to me.

John Byrne and Dan Jurgen's respective runs of the character is my ideal run of the character. A perfect middle ground of being more serious, while staying true to Superman's image. Oh right, I was talking about again? How is this related to DB somehow?

[Rory]

I like the shows like My Adventures with Superman as it focus more on the human side of Superman than how powerful he is.

That is quite literally what the new Superman movie is about.

[JulieYBM]

I haven't seen the new Superman yet because of time, money, and me being iffy about it. The movie looks like it will be adapting All Star Superman, and I always found that comic to be overrated. I also feel like they are trying to rehash that Superman 1-2 nostalgia. I'm so sick of those two movies being the go-to guide on how to adapt the character. There are so many ways to adapt Superman without using those movies. I like the shows like My Adventures with Superman as it focus more on the human side of Superman than how powerful he is. Superman bores me if it's just him being strong all the time. Both the boy scout Superman and "dark and edgy" (using these terms loosely) Superman are both cringy to me.

John Byrne and Dan Jurgen's respective runs of the character is my ideal run of the character. A perfect middle ground of being more serious, while staying true to Superman's image. Oh right, I was talking about again? How is this related to DB somehow?

The movie is not like the Reeve films or All-Star Superman. Clark is rougher and rawer as a person and hero, going so far as the stop what is clearly an Israel stand-in from invading a Palestine stand-in. Superman is an aggressively progressive film and easily stands as the best film for the character.

Clark's personal arc throughout the film contrasts with Gokuu, who has a similar backstory.

I like the shows like My Adventures with Superman as it focus more on the human side of Superman than how powerful he is.

That is quite literally what the new Superman movie is about.

I love how Clark spends the whole film running around, running himself ragged, trying to face off the very system itself. It's very underdog-esque, which I think is exactly the sort of meta perspective to take with the character in 2025.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I was meant to see Superman this weekend, but that isn't going to plan, as of now. That sounds really neat though. I kinda suspect there are more people out there in the entertainment business that are closet Dragon Ball fans (I'm sure plenty like it, but I don't think Dragon Ball has reached the point of being accepted as much as American comics) and like to throw nods in there for the people that will notice them.

[MasenkoHA]

For what it’s Superman 2025 isn’t the first Superman adaptation to bring up the idea that Clark was sent to conquer earth. Smallville had it as a plot point way back in 2002 but I think eventually retconned it out as a misunderstanding or something.

Granted, I can buy James Gunn is a Dragon Ball fan and maybe even inspired by it. I doubt the writers of Smallville knew anything about Dragon Ball other than “that dumb violent Japanese cartoon my kids/nieces and nephews watch”

Gunn is familiar with Smallville, too, given that he is friends with Michael Rosenbaum, the actor for Lex Luthor. That Jor-El plotline kind of just gets glossed over the longer the series goes on. The Jor-El AI—fittingly played by Terrance Stamp, known for playing General Zodd in the Christopher Reeve films—briefly mentions, "Hey, you're the one who wants to try being a hero instead" to Clark, if memory serves, but yeah, it seems like this was something ignored in the later seasons as the newer showrunners were trying to make Smallville feel less like its own thing and closer to the Reeve films. It was weird, yeah.

In My Adventures With Superman, Jor-El isn't a conquer, but Krypton is a colonizing world.

I believe right around the fifth season there was also a demand to have show fall in line with the then upcoming Superman Returns (which was a requel/jerkoff to the Donner film(s)) so the Fortress of Solitude had to look right out of the Donner films, Pa Kent was killed off to match the Donner/Singer films, and they dropped the Jor-El is a bastard angle

[Yuji]

I thought about this too while watching but I've seen Gunn say that having two morally good sets of parents make Superman being good an inevitability, rather than an intentional choice, which is a core theme of the film. This is a major reason most DB fans also share for preferring the OG over Minus.

[JulieYBM]

For what it’s Superman 2025 isn’t the first Superman adaptation to bring up the idea that Clark was sent to conquer earth. Smallville had it as a plot point way back in 2002 but I think eventually retconned it out as a misunderstanding or something.

Granted, I can buy James Gunn is a Dragon Ball fan and maybe even inspired by it. I doubt the writers of Smallville knew anything about Dragon Ball other than “that dumb violent Japanese cartoon my kids/nieces and nephews watch”

Gunn is familiar with Smallville, too, given that he is friends with Michael Rosenbaum, the actor for Lex Luthor. That Jor-El plotline kind of just gets glossed over the longer the series goes on. The Jor-El AI—fittingly played by Terrance Stamp, known for playing General Zodd in the Christopher Reeve films—briefly mentions, "Hey, you're the one who wants to try being a hero instead" to Clark, if memory serves, but yeah, it seems like this was something ignored in the later seasons as the newer showrunners were trying to make Smallville feel less like its own thing and closer to the Reeve films. It was weird, yeah.

In My Adventures With Superman, Jor-El isn't a conquer, but Krypton is a colonizing world.

I believe right around the fifth season there was also a demand to have show fall in line with the then upcoming Superman Returns (which was a requel/jerkoff to the Donner film(s)) so the Fortress of Solitude had to look right out of the Donner films, Pa Kent was killed off to match the Donner/Singer films, and they dropped the Jor-El is a bastard angle

Yup, this is exactly how things panned out. I thought that it was really lame, because Smallville was always at its best when it was doing things differently and breaking rules.

Kind of like anime-original Dragon Ball stuff lol

[LoganForkHands73]

Surprisingly, my mind did not drift to Dragon Ball when the twist about Clark's birth parents was revealed. I thought it was more inspired by Invincible's central twist surrounding Omni-Man's true motivations, and Invincible's immensely betrayed reaction to that revelation. That felt like a more immediately relevant comparison to draw, considering that Omni-Man is one of the definitive "evil Superman" archetypes in pop culture at the moment. I suppose it's hard to draw such a comparison when Bardock, in neither telling of his story, actively tells Kakarot to rule over the puny earthlings and spread his superior Saiyan DNA. Even when Raditz told Goku that he was sent to Earth to plunder its resources, that was literally the first Goku ever heard about his alien origins, so it wasn't like this upended some mistaken preconception about him being sent there for a noble purpose. If anything, it upended much more.

The action sequences reminded me more of Dragon Ball, if anything. Superman's two-vs-one battle against Ultraman and the Engineer had dynamic, hard-hitting choreography that reminded me of the Super: Broly, and the sequence of Superman getting dogpiled by Luthor's Raptors only to rapidly shake them of was like when Freeza's soldiers failed to restrain Bardock on his warpath up to the spaceship. I swear this must be the first DC movie to show Superman using kicks, holds and other realistic combat techniques, besides just throwing out haymakers.

[Grimlock]

It took me far too long to realise that referring to Bardock as a scientist was almost certainly a Superman nod (otherwise what's the point of the line).

I have no doubt that line is a Superman nod, which is why I made that post. I believe we have come full circle, but to truly make it perfect, we need Bardock to become a scientist. Then all the possible parallels would have been established on-screen.

[JulieYBM]

Surprisingly, my mind did not drift to Dragon Ball when the twist about Clark's birth parents was revealed. I thought it was more inspired by Invincible's central twist surrounding Omni-Man's true motivations, and Invincible's immensely betrayed reaction to that revelation. That felt like a more immediately relevant comparison to draw, considering that Omni-Man is one of the definitive "evil Superman" archetypes in pop culture at the moment. I suppose it's hard to draw such a comparison when Bardock, in neither telling of his story, actively tells Kakarot to rule over the puny earthlings and spread his superior Saiyan DNA. Even when Raditz told Goku that he was sent to Earth to plunder its resources, that was literally the first Goku ever heard about his alien origins, so it wasn't like this upended some mistaken preconception about him being sent there for a noble purpose. If anything, it upended much more.

Yeah, I think that this is also important context to keep in mind. This movie does definitely seem like a response to the cultural zeigest in recent media of the 'corruption' of the 'Superman' archetype, like in characters like Omni-Man and Homelander. Gokuu—while broadly accepted by the general fan as a sort of 'Superman equivalent'—doesn't really try to fit or outright counter anything that makes 'Superman' such. All-Might from Boku no Hero Academia probably fits that better.

The "sent by parents from their dying world to another" aspect feels like the only thing that really sets those two up to be comparable, but in this film's continuity, Clark probably would have more in common with Gokuu...well...not enough that they won't totally not get along lol

The action sequences reminded me more of Dragon Ball, if anything. Superman's two-vs-one battle against Ultraman and the Engineer had dynamic, hard-hitting choreography that reminded me of the Super: Broly, and the sequence of Superman getting dogpiled by Luthor's Raptors only to rapidly shake them of was like when Freeza's soldiers failed to restrain Bardock on his warpath up to the spaceship. I swear this must be the first DC movie to show Superman using kicks, holds and other realistic combat techniques, besides just throwing out haymakers.

Ooh, yeah, that does feel true. The live action Superman films and television series have been pretty boring in that respect, up until Superman & Lois, where I feel like there was a more conscious choice to incorporate Clark's different powers into his battles. Still, I really liked how Clark was just body-slamming Ultraman around.

[Yuji]

Goku and Clark would definitely get along. Especially this film's version who seems more compassionate and meek than your typical moral grandstanding Superman portrayal. But I think most (good) Superman portrayals would get along with Goku regardless.

[WittyUsername]

I don’t think Gunn was specifically drawing inspiration from Dragon Ball with Superman’s parents. Aside from the aforementioned Smallville, My Adventures with Superman also teased that idea. Also, we can’t forget about Invincible.

By the way, my two cents is that I don’t like the plot point. I find it weird that Gunn referred to the movie as an immigrant story, despite his decision to include that revelation regarding Superman’s birth parents. It kind of has some unfortunate implications behind it.

[MasenkoHA]

By the way, my two cents is that I don’t like the plot point. I find it weird that Gunn referred to the movie as an immigrant story, despite his decision to include that revelation regarding Superman’s birth parents. It kind of has some unfortunate implications behind it.

Gunn referring to the movie as an immigration story is like Bryan Singer referring to his X-men movies as a story of the persecution of minorities. Yes, that is what the story has always been about (or mostly been about in X-men’s case). It’s what made the right wing outrage so entertaining and frustrating. Gunn could have said nothing and it would still be an immigration story because it’s Superman. I’m sure Gunn’s leans into it more than previous adaptations which would rather scream in your face GET IT? HE’s JESUS!!!! But it doesn’t change what the story has always been about.


I don’t think Superman’s parents having nefarious intentions really has any unfortunate implications with the immigration metaphor, they’re not the ones coming to earth. The actual immigrant chooses to accept earth as his new hime and protects it.