Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

[QuakingStar]

Ss4 is wired because when they want it to it acts like SS3. Remember what it did to fusion.

Yeah, but it only did that with the fusion, I assume they needed a way plotwise to have Gogeta fail so they went with the old fusion times out due to form thing.

[QuakingStar]

While looking at the SDBH colored chapter covers, I noticed something.

The manga seems to imply that not only does a SS4LB users hair and fur color change to the same red as all other users, but that their eye colors all change to the same green color(Broly had no pupils in his cover but his hair and fur were also the same color as Goku and Vegetas while using SS4LB)

I don't recall the anime doing this, the arcade either. Still interesting.

[QuakingStar]

So with Super Dragon Ball Heroes: Ultra God Mission Chapters 19 and 20 we see that Goku Xeno and Goku CC are equals in base, Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2 and and Super Saiyan 3.

We also see that Super Saiyan 4 and Super Saiyan Blue are on an equal level of power, and Super Full Power Saiyan 4 Limit Breaker and Ultra Instinct - Sign are on an equal level of power.

The Ultra God Mission anniversary guide flat out says that Super Full Power Saiyan 4 Limit Breaker is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue.

So how strong the two Super Saiyan 4 forms are has finally been answered.

Yes, I know this is late but I had forgotten this thread was even made.



NOW.. I just want info on how strong Dragon Ball Daimas Super Saiyan 4 is.

We know that Adult Daima Goku is weaker than BoG Goku Pre-God ritual in base because it takes place before the events of BoG so we can't use that to compare anything.

[Almighty Majin]

So with Super Dragon Ball Heroes: Ultra God Mission Chapters 19 and 20 we see that Goku Xeno and Goku CC are equals in base, Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2 and and Super Saiyan 3.

We also see that Super Saiyan 4 and Super Saiyan Blue are on an equal level of power, and Super Full Power Saiyan 4 Limit Breaker and Ultra Instinct - Sign are on an equal level of power.

The Ultra God Mission anniversary guide flat out says that Super Full Power Saiyan 4 Limit Breaker is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue.

So how strong the two Super Saiyan 4 forms are has finally been answered.

Yeah SDBH and other supplementary material such as FighterZ and Sparking Zero seem to place GT SSJ4 equivalent to Blue. From a meta-narrative perspective within the franchise itself it is clear that these 2 forms are portrayed to be on the same level. GT Goku and Super Goku are effectively equals as Xeno Goku and CC Goku are (not including Ultra Instinct shenanigans although you could perhaps argue that GT Goku post-ascension at the end of the Omega Shenron fight might have gotten a boost of a similar degree).

NOW.. I just want info on how strong Dragon Ball Daimas Super Saiyan 4 is.

We know that Adult Daima Goku is weaker than BoG Goku Pre-God ritual in base because it takes place before the events of BoG so we can't use that to compare anything.

This is a bit trickier seeing as the power levels in Daima are difficult to parse. The child debuff is quite vague and we don't really have the best idea as to where the characters stand power-wise. I suppose the question here would be how strong you think Evil Third Eye Gomah is and how strong he got throughout the entire battle against him. I personally think that Daima SSJ4 boosted Goku to a level beyond any form of Buu. This is the power he was training for after all, he wanted a power that could defeat Buu no matter what so it would make sense to me that Daima's SSJ4 pushes Goku to that level. As for how he compares to Vegetto, that is a whole other matter.

[QuakingStar]

I would assume it would have given him enough power to defeat something such as Buuhan as well, since that was the highest powered enemy he had since he is also Vegito, and Buuhan is still Buu. So SS4 would have probably have given him around the same boost as what he and Vegeta got to get to Vegito's SS power at most, Vegito's base power at least.

[miguelnuva1]

I would assume it would have given him enough power to defeat something such as Buuhan as well, since that was the highest powered enemy he had since he is also Vegito, and Buuhan is still Buu. So SS4 would have probably have given him around the same boost as what he and Vegeta got to get to Vegito's SS power at most, Vegito's base power at least.

So SS4 gave the same increase as it did in GT.

[Koitsukai]

I agree it's probably like in GT, but with a much weaker Goku due to the base power difference.
Math goes out the window of course, these people don't even care about things contradicting each other let alone exactly how much stronger this form is; whether it was Toriyama or Toei, they probably were going for a form that could surpass Majin Buu, like Goku himself said, so at least Base Vegito.
Probably, base Vegito, since it was Goku's first time using the form.

[QuakingStar]

Yeah the way they treat fusions now, base potara and fusion dance fusions are above almost all transformations so it could be base Vegito. Especially since base Vegito was already stronger than Ultimate Gohan.

[Kaboom]

What if Fake SS4's power is smack dab between that of Gold Ape and Real SS4? Because I'm sure there's at least a little bias at work here, but the doofy-looking gorilla arms and uniform color kind of give me "Incomplete SS4" vibes. As if Goku just stopped halfway through the proper SS4 transformation sequence.

Numbers-wise, if Gold Ape is 4,000x base (SS3 x 10), and Real SS4 is 40,000x base (another 10x, based on Goku vs Baby), then Fake SS4 could fall right in the middle at 20,000x. Only being half as strong as the genuine article feels thematically appropriate, too.

[QuakingStar]

Toyotaro could easily give it the original design once he brings it to the manga, and give a small explanation for that but I doubt he will. When he brings it to the manga it will probably just have the most minor tweaks. In terms of power I wouldn't mind if there was at least one more stage to the form. My favorite version of Super Saiyan 4 is the Super Full Power Saiyan 4: Limit Breaker.

[TheComicCurator]

Just want to say one thing about this, after reading all this.

The Chozenshuu saying the ultimate form is SSJ4 is because SSJ4 is an actual Saiyan form and God isnt. How Vegeta did it was through training with Whis to correctly adapt his ki to God ki and the details were not given. Saiyans cannot just turn God form naturally.

SSJ4 is a transformation that any Saiyan can potentially reach through rage and training and forms in general leading to SSJ4 like in the case of Heroes Broly who reached limit breaker SSJ4 seemingly just by being brain washed without training.

GOD form is not a Saiyan form. Its a special ritual + whatever Whis helped Vegeta get right for his side. So when the Chozenshuu says SSJ4 is the ultimate form, that is quite wrong to say is the ultimate form over the SSJG tier.

Base Goku and Buu were even in Super, and Majin Buus power level is around 1 billion in that form.
SSJ1 Goku + God Ki was not even noticed as a shift to Goku, which implies Red God and God Ki + SSj1 are the same level of power.

Beerus had to tell Goku this was the case and he didnt even notice the power level change. Red God = God Ki being used with SSj1.

-CC

[QuakingStar]

Just want to say one thing about this, after reading all this.

The Chozenshuu saying the ultimate form is SSJ4 is because SSJ4 is an actual Saiyan form and God isnt. How Vegeta did it was through training with Whis to correctly adapt his ki to God ki and the details were not given. Saiyans cannot just turn God form naturally.

SSJ4 is a transformation that any Saiyan can potentially reach through rage and training and forms in general leading to SSJ4 like in the case of Heroes Broly who reached limit breaker SSJ4 seemingly just by being brain washed without training.

GOD form is not a Saiyan form. Its a special ritual + whatever Whis helped Vegeta get right for his side. So when the Chozenshuu says SSJ4 is the ultimate form, that is quite wrong to say is the ultimate form over the SSJG tier.

Base Goku and Buu were even in Super, and Majin Buus power level is around 1 billion in that form.
SSJ1 Goku + God Ki was not even noticed as a shift to Goku, which implies Red God and God Ki + SSj1 are the same level of power.

Beerus had to tell Goku this was the case and he didnt even notice the power level change. Red God = God Ki being used with SSj1.

-CC

Ok? This is about SS4, not SSG. SS4 didn't exist in canon until Daima anyway(and they fucked that up too, by not giving proper explanations for anything) and SSG wasn't even thought of when GT existed.

[Hulk10]

What if Fake SS4's power is smack dab between that of Gold Ape and Real SS4? Because I'm sure there's at least a little bias at work here, but the doofy-looking gorilla arms and uniform color kind of give me "Incomplete SS4" vibes. As if Goku just stopped halfway through the proper SS4 transformation sequence.

Numbers-wise, if Gold Ape is 4,000x base (SS3 x 10), and Real SS4 is 40,000x base (another 10x, based on Goku vs Baby), then Fake SS4 could fall right in the middle at 20,000x. Only being half as strong as the genuine article feels thematically appropriate, too.

Hmm that could be possible.