Should Dragon Ball's canon be reset?

[funrush]

If someone tries to argue that Daima and Super fit together, then I can only assume they’re in denial. There are various contradictions between the two series that would make it a huge head-scratcher to try and fit them together.

Goku doesn't go SS4 in Super, Vegeta doesn't go SS3 in Super, but that's fine cause they use SSB after the first arc anyway.

Uhh there's the whole thing about Kibitokai and the Potara, that's totally different between the shows. That's the main contradiction.

Goku getting told about Universe 7 early in Daima but you could say "he forgot because he's dumb." The backstory about the universe's creator is different but you could say that guy is Zeno's dad or something.

Anything else I'm missing? Seems like the differences are nowhere as egregious as "How come none of the characters and forms from Super ever show up in GT?" which there's no plausible explanation for. Yeah if we're operating under the idea that there can't be any continuity contradictions at all, then sure they can't fit together, but I think the amount of contradictions are few enough that you could still reasonably lump Super and Daima into the same timeline if you wanted to as long as you're willing to ignore the Potara screwup.

[Kaboom]

The two Supers themselves already constitute separate continuities that can't even fit with each other. Trying to shove Daima in with either of them, much less trying to force all three into any semblance of a single straight line, is completely wacko. Labeling it as "denial" feels inadequate if anything. If I was a more paranoid man I'd be tempted to label all this pointless fussing as just a focused effort to specifically exclude GT from the pool of so-called "canon" at all costs.

...Anyway, the past ten years have shown that the creative powers-that-be behind modern Dragon Ball aren't even capable of churning out a decent spin-off series. I would never trust them to attempt a full-blown remake. Just cut your losses and lay it all to rest (again) already.

[JulieYBM]

Why should the Super comic and the Super cartoon bother being in the same continuity? Dragon Ball (1984) and it's three cartoon adaptions aren't. Hell, they shouldn't be. There's no point to repeating yourself like that.

[miguelnuva1]

If someone tries to argue that Daima and Super fit together, then I can only assume they’re in denial. There are various contradictions between the two series that would make it a huge head-scratcher to try and fit them together.

I know the fandom has a long-standing belief that any Dragon Ball story that’s made with Toriyama’s involvement is “canon,” but the simple fact is that Toriyama never seemed to care all that much for that concept. Frankly, I always felt like the “canon” debates in the fandom originated because people needed a reason to invalidate GT’s existence.

Kibitokai is the only thing that makes it not fit. Vegeta has clowned SS3 every chance he gets even in Daima and with modern writing I can see either

A. Beerus beat Goku too fast for him to use SS4.

B. They'll make a joke Goku forgot about SS4.

They're contradictions but they're not 100% can't fit like GT can't.

[super michael]

If someone tries to argue that Daima and Super fit together, then I can only assume they’re in denial. There are various contradictions between the two series that would make it a huge head-scratcher to try and fit them together.

I know the fandom has a long-standing belief that any Dragon Ball story that’s made with Toriyama’s involvement is “canon,” but the simple fact is that Toriyama never seemed to care all that much for that concept. Frankly, I always felt like the “canon” debates in the fandom originated because people needed a reason to invalidate GT’s existence.

Kibitokai is the only thing that makes it not fit. Vegeta has clowned SS3 every chance he gets even in Daima and with modern writing I can see either

A. Beerus beat Goku too fast for him to use SS4.

B. They'll make a joke Goku forgot about SS4.

They're contradictions but they're not 100% can't fit like GT can't.

Vegeta was able to beat Tamagami 2 with his SSJ3.

DBS they went overboard with Goku being extremely dumb, including the things that he should know very well. Imagine Goku not knowing meditation and believeing that isn't training, when Goku used meditation to train and even unlock SSJ Grade forms.

I would like to see the manga exclusive chapters animated not because I care about canon or continuities, but so those characters, forms and story can make it into Dragon Ball games. Dragon Ball games are not allowed to use anything that is manga exclusive, that is why we got Daima characters while we never got any manga exclusive characters such as Moro, 7-3, UE Vegeta, Granolah, etc.

[funrush]

I'd like more Super anime for that reason and also because IMO the series cannot end until the Black Freeza plotline is resolved. If we just say "it's over now because Toriyama is dead" it's just gonna be unfinished forever in my mind because they ended it with Space Hitler being the strongest character in the universe. Goku lets a genocidal maniac free, he becomes way stronger than both Goku and Vegeta combined, and the series ends.

I don't think Toriyama wanted that to be the ending of the franchise! He was clearly setting up another Freeza arc. I understand the sentiment that continuing without Toriyama could be disrespectful, but I think it WOULD be disrespectful to let "Freeza wins" be the ending of the series he spent nearly 40 years of his life on.

So there's gotta be one last hurrah of sorts either in manga or in the anime and so it would make sense to do a Season 2 of Dragon Ball Super adapting Moro and Granolah and finally the Black Freeza story. They'd probably do reanimated versions of Broly and Super Hero as well, so we'd be looking at a minimum of 5 arcs. Maybe they could do some extra arcs going past EOZ if they really wanted but I don't NEED it, they just have to do Black Freeza to wrap everything up. After that I think the story can rest.

I don't really want a "reset canon" with no involvement from Toriyama but I wouldn't oppose some side stories here or there. If they wanna really milk the franchise further past "Super 2", maybe they could try reanimating the manga using the artstyle from this commercial https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vn1GRZnzbHQ

[Saiya6Cit]

No. People pleasing is bad at any level, franchise level included. Plus some of the new fans only stay in the fandom from 4 months to 3 years and then watch another anime or stop watching anime altogether.

People should accept different canons and understand that canon is anything that comes out and is branded, under the sueisha or the toei animation brand. Sometimes animator producers don't do their homework well enough and they don't really dig into a series, which causes the series to go off canon, character to act out of character and having plots in current series that cancel and/or contradict past series. It should not happen, but it does happen, it is part of life, sadly not everyone is willing to do their jobs with quality and ethics, dragon ball is just another victim of mediocrity whenever that happens.

No reset needed. New series with new plots, more Daima, that is what is needed.

[BernardoCairo]

No. Keep each material as its own separate story.
The closest thing we have to a "canon" is the original manga anyway...

[miguelnuva1]

Dragonball doesn't have a canon anyway according to most that work on it so there's that. If someone could connect Daima, Super and GT together there is nothing stopping them lol.

[WittyUsername]

Goku makes it very clear in BoG that he does not have a transformation beyond Super Saiyan 3. The existence of Super Saiyan 4 in Daima explicitly contradicts that, as does Vegeta having Super Saiyan 3. Also, let’s not forget Bulma and her anti-aging bugs.

I don’t see what benefit there could possibly be in trying to cram Daima and Super into the same continuity. It’s not like that’s going to somehow invalidate one or the other. They can coexist as their own separate things. It’s all fiction anyway.

[JulieYBM]

Goku makes it very clear in BoG that he does not have a transformation beyond Super Saiyan 3. The existence of Super Saiyan 4 in Daima explicitly contradicts that, as does Vegeta having Super Saiyan 3. Also, let’s not forget Bulma and her anti-aging bugs.

I don’t see what benefit there could possibly be in trying to cram Daima and Super into the same continuity. Just let them exist separately.

I mean, I don't see the benefit of being anal about continuity simply because minor details are inconsistent. I really don't think Toriyama gives a shit about details perfectly matching, because if he did, there would have been a firm, "These are completely separate continuities!" statement, because weird anal writers do that sort of thing when they release new work.

[WittyUsername]

Goku makes it very clear in BoG that he does not have a transformation beyond Super Saiyan 3. The existence of Super Saiyan 4 in Daima explicitly contradicts that, as does Vegeta having Super Saiyan 3. Also, let’s not forget Bulma and her anti-aging bugs.

I don’t see what benefit there could possibly be in trying to cram Daima and Super into the same continuity. Just let them exist separately.

I mean, I don't see the benefit of being anal about continuity simply because minor details are inconsistent. I really don't think Toriyama gives a shit about details perfectly matching, because if he did, there would have been a firm, "These are completely separate continuities!" statement, because weird anal writers do that sort of thing when they release new work.

My understanding is that Japanese creatives and audiences generally don’t care about “canon” nearly as much as people in the West often do, thus, they feel no need to clarify which Dragon Ball continuity is which. My only point is that I don’t see why fans should be so hellbent on trying to force everything together into a single “canon.”

[JulieYBM]

Goku makes it very clear in BoG that he does not have a transformation beyond Super Saiyan 3. The existence of Super Saiyan 4 in Daima explicitly contradicts that, as does Vegeta having Super Saiyan 3. Also, let’s not forget Bulma and her anti-aging bugs.

I don’t see what benefit there could possibly be in trying to cram Daima and Super into the same continuity. Just let them exist separately.

I mean, I don't see the benefit of being anal about continuity simply because minor details are inconsistent. I really don't think Toriyama gives a shit about details perfectly matching, because if he did, there would have been a firm, "These are completely separate continuities!" statement, because weird anal writers do that sort of thing when they release new work.

My understanding is that Japanese creatives and audiences generally don’t care about “canon” nearly as much as people in the West often do, thus, they feel no need to clarify which Dragon Ball continuity is which. My only point is that I don’t see why fans should be so hellbent on trying to force everything together into a single “canon.”

They don't tend to care about canon, you're correct. Dragon Ball has, though, gone out of the way to establish Dragon Ball GT and the Heroes franchise as separate continuities, though.

That being said, I think it's a good bet to consider Daima as a series that will be referenced in future Dragon Ball Super, because they're going to want to show off and sell more Super Saiyan 4 merch, which they can do under the veil of, "Toriyama was involved with it's introduction!"

[miguelnuva1]

My thing with Super and Daima is, if Toyotaro brings Super back and Daima events start getting brought up then what?

Either Super will continue with Toyotaro and Daima will has some form of continuation that does its own thing or

Daima will be mentioned when Super comes back. Yes Daima and Super shouldn't fit together right now but if they do Kibitokai in BOG is the only hard hurdle they have.

Vegeta mentioned SS3 has a weakness before so he doesn't use it. Goku has been written dumb enough lately I can see him forgetting SS4 as a Joke or saying Beerus beat him before he uses it being jokes.

[WittyUsername]

The future of Super seems pretty uncertain at the moment, but assuming we ever get to a point where the manga or the anime or whatever references Daima, it is what it is. For the time being though, I think it’s best to view them as separate.

[funrush]

Idk I don't expect Super Saiyan 4 to get brought up a whole lot if Super does come back. After all, the idea that Super and Daima could be on the same timeline does hinge on the idea that Super Saiyan 4 is a form that they wouldn't have any reason to use when they have all these new forms. We already have to wonder why Goku doesn't use it against Beerus or Caulifla. Now remember in Z, Super Saiyan 3 is like this very ki-intensive form that's good for short bursts but it's really not ideal. Super Saiyan 4 is probably like that but even more draining, and that could be a reason we never see it in Super when they can just go Super Saiyan Blue instead.

Now I think if Toriyama was alive he'd have probably tried to do a Vegeta SS4 scene somewhere like how he put Super Saiyan God Vegeta in the Broly movie but I can't think of a logical reason for it to come about now that we're all into the Ultra Instinct/Ego thing. It'd be strange for Goku or Vegeta to be like "for this fight I'm gonna use this form I haven't used in like 8 years cause it kinda lowkey sucks function-wise" unless it's like to show it to someone like Cabba or something. Or I guess maybe we could see Goku whip it out in a fight once for fun.

I think the Tertian Oculus is a thing that could show up again (or the powerup bugs) although I'd also imagine that's the type of thing Toriyama would forget he introduced. But I could pretty easily imagine an arc in Super where they're fighting a bad guy and Dende is like "remember those eyeballs we have in the attic?" and then Piccolo uses one and becomes Red Piccolo or something.

But who knows maybe the plan was actually to do more Daima eventually and we would have seen Toriyama do his own version of the Baby arc or something and that would have had a lot more SS4 action. I kind of doubt it though. It seemed like a one and done to me. Even the name "Daima" is Daimao without the O because it's about an adventure through the demon world.

[GokuIsMyDad77X]

Right now I think Daima and Super fit in separate categories. I agree with this. But if Toyotaro-san decides to pull something with the Super manga involving Daima, how many of us would complain?

I feel like if we operate off a loose notion of different timelines a'la Xenoverse, that reconciles the canon a bit better than slap-dashing a Transformers "Everything is G1" method on top of it. I'd honestly hate that.

[GurixDr34]

I say accept the existence of a Multiverse and everyone will be happy that Super and Daima both have their own continuity

[Peach]

I would love an American take on Dragon Ball, whether its a comic series or a cartoon. Imagine if Skybound, the crew of My Adventures With Superman, or the crew of the Castlevania Netflix show made their own Dragon Ball.

I am not in favor of permanently rebooting the series across everywhere though. The multiverse approach works best. One creator should be able to set something in the Super manga continuity, another should be able to continue where Daima left off, another should be able to do their alternate continuation to Buu, others should be able to pull elements from multiple continuities like the games do, and so on. I'm in favor of creative freedom.

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

I don't know about that, but I think that future adaptations should be able to take liberties with the property in order to make it work better as a TV show or movie. Manga and anime aren't the same so if the anime gets a full reboot someday I wouldn't mind things being changed if it makes the show better.