Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[GreatSaiyaman123]

My old pal has asked me again to share his power level list, because he's made a change: Taking a middle ground on the strongest Boo debate, he made Kid Boo and SSJ3 Goku (End of Kid Boo fight) = Ultimate Gohan. In his words:

When Good Boo is removed from Evil Boo, Boo begins reverting to his original self. When he reverts to his South Kaioshin absorbed form, Goku notes his Ki is increasing. After reverting to his original self, it’s assumed by Goku and Vegeta that this Boo is weaker than before, but Pure Boo is noted to be the strongest Majin Boo many times. Now, the official Dragon Ball website notes that absorbing South Kaioshin made Boo stronger and both Bootenks and Boohan claim to be the mightiest Majin despite remembering their existence as Pure Boo. As such, it would be fair to say Goku’s assertion applies to the forms of Boo without anyone powering him. Even Evil Boo, despite having Good Boo absorbed, is having his power suppressed by Dai-Kaioshin, hence why he’s weaker than Pure Boo. Goku also seems to think Gohan and Gotenks would turn things around in their favor, so we can be sure Pure Boo isn’t stronger than Bootenks and Boohan. The Manga De Legende also backs this up, claiming that if Gohan and Gotenks worked together with Goku, they could’ve defeated Pure Boo.

Logically this makes a lot of sense to me, DBS says Goku is #1 after killing Boo, and it explains why everyone is so strong in Daima... But when I went back to read the final chapters of the manga, it's not the vibe I get at all. It really feels like Toriyama just hurriedly nerfed Boo so Goku could save the day, but 20-30 years later he just thought "Well Goku is the MC and Kid Boo is the final bad guy, so they must be the strongest". It doesn't help.

What do you think?

[QuakingStar]

Pure Boo didn't use his true power until the Spirit Bomb was thrown at him, because this time his life was actually in danger. So he is stronger than SS3 Goku. But Ultimate Gohan level? I sincerely and severely doubt it.

[DanielSSJ]

My old pal has asked me again to share his power level list, because he's made a change: Taking a middle ground on the strongest Boo debate, he made Kid Boo and SSJ3 Goku (End of Kid Boo fight) = Ultimate Gohan. In his words:

When Good Boo is removed from Evil Boo, Boo begins reverting to his original self. When he reverts to his South Kaioshin absorbed form, Goku notes his Ki is increasing. After reverting to his original self, it’s assumed by Goku and Vegeta that this Boo is weaker than before, but Pure Boo is noted to be the strongest Majin Boo many times. Now, the official Dragon Ball website notes that absorbing South Kaioshin made Boo stronger and both Bootenks and Boohan claim to be the mightiest Majin despite remembering their existence as Pure Boo. As such, it would be fair to say Goku’s assertion applies to the forms of Boo without anyone powering him. Even Evil Boo, despite having Good Boo absorbed, is having his power suppressed by Dai-Kaioshin, hence why he’s weaker than Pure Boo. Goku also seems to think Gohan and Gotenks would turn things around in their favor, so we can be sure Pure Boo isn’t stronger than Bootenks and Boohan. The Manga De Legende also backs this up, claiming that if Gohan and Gotenks worked together with Goku, they could’ve defeated Pure Boo.

Logically this makes a lot of sense to me, DBS says Goku is #1 after killing Boo, and it explains why everyone is so strong in Daima... But when I went back to read the final chapters of the manga, it's not the vibe I get at all. It really feels like Toriyama just hurriedly nerfed Boo so Goku could save the day, but 20-30 years later he just thought "Well Goku is the MC and Kid Boo is the final bad guy, so they must be the strongest". It doesn't help.

What do you think?

Having a direct statement from the website that absorbing South Kaioshin made Boo stronger is a really good find.

While I'm more willing to flirt with the idea that Kid Boo is stronger than Super Boo than I have been in the past, it only really works if you assume Boo was holding back the whole time and Goku on his own never actually stood a chance. I don't care what shows 20~30 years after the fact say, reading the manga, I can't remotely buy that Gotenks is flatly weaker than Goku on all fronts. All the stuff about him being #1 in the universe 100% reads as marketing written by someone who only has surface level memories of the Boo arc ("He's the hero guy, so he must be the strongest!").

Moreover, if we accept the logic of Buff Boo being stronger than Kid Boo, then it's simpler just to say that Super Boo is suppressed compared to the former, not the latter, like if Kid Boo was a 10 and Buff Boo was a 20, Super Boo is a 15. Or whatever numbers and gaps you prefer.

[Haighter]

This is something I've seen mentioned by Herms and have mentioned myself before: I think it's worth considering the possibility that Toriyama implemented a (bad) retcon of Goku's strength just before the Kid Boo fight. His comment that he could have defeated Fat Boo but held back obviously puts him ahead of Fat Boo, and that's widely known, but with just how much material Post-Z consistently portrays Goku as #1 (some that Toriyama probably could have corrected), I can't help but think maybe that's how it was in Toriyama's mind as well. Obviously, there's overwhelming evidence in the series itself that Gotenks and Gohan are stronger than Goku and strong evidence that Super Boo is stronger than Kid Boo, but the Boo arc is also the sloppiest arc penned by Toriyama, with some of the easy examples of poor writing/planning being him forgetting the number of wishes on the Dragon Balls and writing the characters to think Gohan is somehow dead, despite there being no logical reason to think that. It's not absurd to me that Toriyama had just not realized how much evidence he had written for "Gotenks > Goku" and assumed he could retcon it and it would still all work out without a headache so that he could have the MC be at the top again by the end, after he had taken back the lead in the narrative.

A retcon wouldn't really provide a satisfying in-universe explanation, but sometimes those don't exist. I'm also not trying to say that the retcon theory is definitely the case, just that it's something to consider as a possibility in such a long-running debate. My two cents.

[PhantomSaiyan]

This is something I've seen mentioned by Herms and have mentioned myself before: I think it's worth considering the possibility that Toriyama implemented a (bad) retcon of Goku's strength just before the Kid Boo fight. His comment that he could have defeated Fat Boo but held back obviously puts him ahead of Fat Boo, and that's widely known, but with just how much material Post-Z consistently portrays Goku as #1 (some that Toriyama probably could have corrected), I can't help but think maybe that's how it was in Toriyama's mind as well. Obviously, there's overwhelming evidence in the series itself that Gotenks and Gohan are stronger than Goku and strong evidence that Super Boo is stronger than Kid Boo, but the Boo arc is also the sloppiest arc penned by Toriyama, with some of the easy examples of poor writing/planning being him forgetting the number of wishes on the Dragon Balls and writing the characters to think Gohan is somehow dead, despite there being no logical reason to think that. It's not absurd to me that Toriyama had just not realized how much evidence he had written for "Gotenks > Goku" and assumed he could retcon it and it would still all work out without a headache so that he could have the MC be at the top again by the end, after he had taken back the lead in the narrative.

A retcon wouldn't really provide a satisfying in-universe explanation, but sometimes those don't exist. I'm also not trying to say that the retcon theory is definitely the case, just that it's something to consider as a possibility in such a long-running debate. My two cents.

I thought this as well, but I think what happened is that since post manga material was written years after it was finished, the last thing on his mind was simply Goku vs Kid Buu, so in his head, Goku = strongest Z fighter.

"Toriyama forgot" is so overdone at this point but I think this is what it is here, because as you said, evidence in the manga shows us that at the time he definitely didn't think Goku was stronger than Gotenks and Gohan

[Dragon15]

In my mind, what matters is what is in the manga. I don’t care about interview or magazines or Even what toryama Said.

Toryama said that to him, when he invented the ssj, It was only a 10x increase. But by analizing the manga, all the fan agreed that It was 50x. And what toryama said after that didn’t change their opinion.

That is the same for me. The manga clearly show that super buu is stronger than kid buu.
Goku said he couldn’t beat super buu, after seeing gohan beating super buu.
And goku was fighting as an equal vs kid buu. He only lost because of his low stamina.
So goku=kid buu<super buu<gohan

[Kaboom]

Yeah, I don't buy the "Toriyama decided to ignore the previous parts of the story and make Goku and Pure Boo the strongest at the last moment" idea for one big reason: South Kaioshin.

His sole role in the narrative, revealed in that brief flashback right after Pure Boo first appeared, is to explain where Boo got all his prior "too much for Goku to fight" power in his Evil/Super form, and how he could now in turn lose all that extra power to re-level the playing field for the final big fight with Goku. Absorbing South Kaioshin made him stronger. Then absorbing Grand Kaioshin made him weaker. Now he's lost both of them and he's back to his baseline power level.

If Pure Boo was really meant to be the strongest, then South Kaioshin's absorption and Boo's "Buff" form have no reason to exist. It would have been so much simpler for Toriyama to just write, "this original form of Boo was the strongest, but absorbing the gentle Grand Kaioshin weakened him." No need to add an extra Kaioshin to the mix. But instead, it seems like Toriyama scrambled to do the exact opposite, realizing he had to come up with a workable way for Boo's final and true form to be weaker than the previous ones, and the answer was South Kaioshin.

[Jack Bz]

I think Goku only specifying that he could have beaten fat boo is pretty solid proof that Toriyama didn't retcon anything in the manga. Otherwise why specify?

Absolutely agreed that this has been retconned in the revival era though.

[Koitsukai]

The retcon in the revival era is a thing, for sure. Specially, in Daima. Probably, it goes to show just how much he cared about the scaling in his final years, "Gohan was the strongest back then? well, now I want Goku to be the one, fuck it".
But in the Buu arc, that's not even a possibility.

Even if Akira meant for Goku to be the strongest back then, he dropped the ball several times, on purpose. The story told is bigger than its author and their intentions.

I'm always surprised how people(not in this thread/page, of course), just to have their main guy come up as the strongest, have no quarrel with rendering the story and its author stupid.
So Akira threw useless characters into the mix just because, had no problem contradicting what he wrote 3 weeks ago, nor had any sense of narrative whatsoever; he was that amateur.

[QuakingStar]

The retcon in the revival era is a thing, for sure. Specially, in Daima. Probably, it goes to show just how much he cared about the scaling in his final years, "Gohan was the strongest back then? well, now I want Goku to be the one, fuck it".
But in the Buu arc, that's not even a possibility.

Even if Akira meant for Goku to be the strongest back then, he dropped the ball several times, on purpose. The story told is bigger than its author and their intentions.

I'm always surprised how people(not in this thread/page, of course), just to have their main guy come up as the strongest, have no quarrel with rendering the story and its author stupid.
So Akira threw useless characters into the mix just because, had no problem contradicting what he wrote 3 weeks ago, nor had any sense of narrative whatsoever; he was that amateur.

I think the issue with him was he was stuck on rule of cool, and his editors only stepped in for specific things. If they would have tried to keep him more "in line" with stuff besides those certain things then there would have been less retcons going forward.

[LightBing]

It's overwhelmingly obvious that Goku was never stronger than Gotenks and Gohan. Even post-fight with him thinking Vegeta's plan was to bring Gotenks and Gohan.

In modern Dragon Ball...
I can't say I have everything fresh in my mind. At least in Daima it seems they purposely avoided including Gohan and kids.

In Super rapidly Goku gets an upgrade. The power scale in the face of Beerus doesn't really matter.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The manga did have some issues though. Stuff like Vegeta saying only Goku can fight Boo, Gohan’s energy not being enough in the Genki Dama, and them freaking out and saying it’s all over when Boo notices the Genki Dama.

It feels wrong to say that, but I think that stuff is just bad writing. Artificial tension Toriyama made up so the final battle could have stakes. The problem is trying to find in universe explanations for that: The Genki Dama just collect a fraction of the power? Was Gohan not at FP? Is he dumb? Maybe Goku is the strongest?

[PhantomSaiyan]

The manga did have some issues though. Stuff like Vegeta saying only Goku can fight Boo, Gohan’s energy not being enough in the Genki Dama, and them freaking out and saying it’s all over when Boo notices the Genki Dama.

It feels wrong to say that, but I think that stuff is just bad writing. Artificial tension Toriyama made up so the final battle could have stakes. The problem is trying to find in universe explanations for that: The Genki Dama just collect a fraction of the power? Was Gohan not at FP? Is he dumb? Maybe Goku is the strongest?

The way I always interpreted it is that if the Genki Dama took all of someone's power they would be left unconscious or in a near death state, so it has to take a fraction.

Total headcanon ofc since it's not stated anywhere but hey it always made sense to me. Other than that I agree that those statements are there just to build tension and aren't well thought out

[DanielSSJ]

Alternatively, Goku's been burned twice by underestimating how much energy the Genki Dama needs AND Boo has absurdly cracked regeneration. Nothing but absolute overkill would've ever actually killed him.

[Koitsukai]

I'm not so sure the genki dama's power depends on how strong people lending their ki are. Sure, it would make the most sense but it was never ever mentioned at all, so seeing it as a contradiction, or worse: evidence, doesn't really work for me.

I believe they all lend a somewhat similar amount of life force, some providing more than others due to having more of it, but I doubt it makes or breaks it.
I agree it was just to create tension, without caring much if it messed up the possible ways of the genki dama. But since it cannot overwrite what was shown previously (it sure isn't its intention), then the attack works by using a fraction of their life force.

[LightBing]

The manga did have some issues though. Stuff like Vegeta saying only Goku can fight Boo, Gohan’s energy not being enough in the Genki Dama, and them freaking out and saying it’s all over when Boo notices the Genki Dama.

It feels wrong to say that, but I think that stuff is just bad writing. Artificial tension Toriyama made up so the final battle could have stakes. The problem is trying to find in universe explanations for that: The Genki Dama just collect a fraction of the power? Was Gohan not at FP? Is he dumb? Maybe Goku is the strongest?

Nothing wrong with calling it how it is. It begins with them destroying the potaras, a sure victory. We have to suspend disbelief.
It's still an incredibly fun final bout and an excellent ending.

The mechanics of the Genki Dama aren't really well explained. I remember an interview of Toriyama were he divided Ki into 3 parts one of them being Genki.
Assuming the Genki Dama can only be made of that type of Ki, then Gohan's contribution wasn't his full power, nor was everyone else.

I also have the headcanon that a good bit of energy was lost in the trip. It travelled millions upon millions of kilometers after all.

[dbgtFO]

The manga did have some issues though. Stuff like Vegeta saying only Goku can fight Boo, Gohan’s energy not being enough in the Genki Dama, and them freaking out and saying it’s all over when Boo notices the Genki Dama.

It feels wrong to say that, but I think that stuff is just bad writing. Artificial tension Toriyama made up so the final battle could have stakes. The problem is trying to find in universe explanations for that: The Genki Dama just collect a fraction of the power? Was Gohan not at FP? Is he dumb? Maybe Goku is the strongest?

Nothing wrong with calling it how it is. It begins with them destroying the potaras, a sure victory. We have to suspend disbelief.
It's still an incredibly fun final bout and an excellent ending.

The mechanics of the Genki Dama aren't really well explained. I remember an interview of Toriyama were he divided Ki into 3 parts one of them being Genki.
Assuming the Genki Dama can only be made of that type of Ki, then Gohan's contribution wasn't his full power, nor was everyone else.

I also have the headcanon that a good bit of energy was lost in the trip. It travelled millions upon millions of kilometers after all.

Yes, it would be a very indirect messaging, if the intent is that Gohan is just straight up weaker.
Though I agree with the notion that Gohan and everybody else gave up close to their full powers and not just genki, I don't agree that this equals him being weaker than Buu.
Going by DB's own logic and Goku's track record with the Genkidama, both times against Vegeta and Freeza, he was sure they had enough power to finish the job, but he was very wrong about that.
This time he just makes an extremely overpowered Genkidama and he gets it right for the first time.

Furthermore the characters rely on huge charged ki blasts to finish off their enemies and Gohan vs Pure Buu wouldn't be different, since he can come back from almost nothing. So Gohan may be stronger than Buu, but that wouldn't be enough to kill him, even with a basic ki blast enveloping him.
All throughout DB we see, that characters can survive the full power blasts of others on their same level or in some cases stronger than them. And Buu is evem harder to kill!
Look at how Goku with a Kaioken x4 + Kamehameha factually surpassing Vegeta in power still wasn't enough to just kill him, but only send him flying for a bit.

[Jack Bz]

Genki does seem weird. If it's just straight up a certain percentage of someone's energy, it makes no sense that Goten and Trunks didn't fuse beforehand before donating theirs. Who's to say each living being doesn't just have similar amounts of genki, so it's always more of a numbers game than anything else?

[LightBing]

Plus as we can see, characters multiply and focus their KI. The Genki Dama doesn't have any of that.

Logically it wouldn't extract the maximum possible energy as if it wielded by it's user.
In Dragon Ball with the exception of the movies, pure addition usually isn't used. Or else everyone would just charge their Kamehameha's, kikoho's , etc.. at the same time, defeating the villains fairly easily.

Going by visual cue we can see that the Z-Team and some of the others only contributed to about a fifth of the final size. Their influence wasn't that impactful.

Remembered another line where Goku implies he's weaker than Gohan:

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P10.4-5
Goku: “Hahha—ah! Piccolo’s coming out strong now! Looks like the Fused squirts have returned to normal! You ran out of time! Tooo—oo bad! Your power’s fallen a whole lot. Cheh…I’m a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own…”
Note: presumably be saying that "the Fused squirts have returned to normal", Goku means that Gotenks has split back up into Goten and Trunks, not merely that Gotenks' reverted from Super Saiyan 3 to regular Gotenks. At the very least, Goten and Trunks are separate by the time Goku and Vegeta find them inside of Boo.


He says Gohan can defeat Boo, not himself.

[QuakingStar]

Plus as we can see, characters multiply and focus their KI. The Genki Dama doesn't have any of that.

Logically it wouldn't extract the maximum possible energy as if it wielded by it's user.
In Dragon Ball with the exception of the movies, pure addition usually isn't used. Or else everyone would just charge their Kamehameha's, kikoho's , etc.. at the same time, defeating the villains fairly easily.

Going by visual cue we can see that the Z-Team and some of the others only contributed to about a fifth of the final size. Their influence wasn't that impactful.

Remembered another line where Goku implies he's weaker than Gohan:

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P10.4-5
Goku: “Hahha—ah! Piccolo’s coming out strong now! Looks like the Fused squirts have returned to normal! You ran out of time! Tooo—oo bad! Your power’s fallen a whole lot. Cheh…I’m a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own…”
Note: presumably be saying that "the Fused squirts have returned to normal", Goku means that Gotenks has split back up into Goten and Trunks, not merely that Gotenks' reverted from Super Saiyan 3 to regular Gotenks. At the very least, Goten and Trunks are separate by the time Goku and Vegeta find them inside of Boo.


He says Gohan can defeat Boo, not himself.

Vegeta assumed his plan was to bring Gohan to beat Pure Buu at one point didn't he? So yeah, in the actual story itself Gohan was stronger.