Forget Black Freeza, this is the real wasted potential of Dragon Ball Super

[LoganForkHands73]

If the Dragon Ball Super manga, in its recognisable form under the primary pen of Toyotaro* never returns, I will mourn the clearly incomplete character arcs most of all. There are many frustratingly hanging plot threads, Black Freeza being the most obvious example, but the journeys of Goku, Vegeta and a few other key characters may forever be at odds and ends. It sucks, because while the manga's overall narrative quality was spotty and inconsistent at best, but the characters kept me coming back for more.

Vegeta may have been sold shortest (haha) of everyone. Toyotaro was doing something very cool and ambitious with Vegeta, which was really pulled into focus from the Moro and Granolah arcs, but was sadly cut short due to the sudden swerve into the Super Hero adaptation. Toyotaro was committed to expanding Vegeta's characterisation beyond simply being Goku's eternal rival/sidekick.



I wouldn't necessarily say Toriyama "regressed" Vegeta's character, as many claim, but I think he did turn the rival dynamic into an overused crutch, which led to Vegeta feeling like a superfluous addition to several stories. When you look at the last modern Dragon Ball projects primarily authored by Toriyama, Vegeta headlines with the memorable "aura-farming" scenes, but what does he really contribute, narratively? In Daima, Vegeta has so little stake in the central conflicts that he's literally relegated to Bulma's B-team. In Super Hero, Vegeta's rivalry with Goku is the butt of a post-credit joke.

Toyotaro instead dissects Vegeta's uncertain place in this universe with a surprising degree of maturity and psychological depth. Vegeta isn't the only character to benefit from this, but since he is practically in the dictionary definition for the phrase "character development", it's only fitting that he reaps the most. The Broly movie establishes that Vegeta now has a clear motivation to increase his strength, beyond petty one-upmanship with Goku: to be prepared for the threat posed by Freeza.

The manga expands on this by focusing on Vegeta's struggle to find an independent path to power; essentially, his second major "midlife crisis" arc after that ill-fated business with Babidi. However, Vegeta's insecure need to stand apart from Goku ironically highlights his inability to leave his rival's shadow. He travels to Yardrat to learn Spirit Control, which is framed as Vegeta stubbornly forging his own path, but... he's literally just re-treading Goku's. In all fairness, he manages to find the perfect countermove to Moro, and he only loses because of his own showboating and guilty conscience clouding his judgement (also, he neglected the baby's-first-steps Spirit Control technique simply because he couldn't bear to be seen to be copying Goku, which is still funny to me).

Feeling wayward from his humiliating choke in the Moro arc, Vegeta instead turns to Beerus. On the one hand, Beerus teaches Vegeta a valuable lesson about the uselessness of dwelling on the Saiyans' past sins. On the other, Beerus is... just the shittiest martial arts mentor you could ever ask for. Vegeta's big takeaway from this training arc (mostly consisting of Beerus hurling debris for him to destroy) is a fancy new hair-dye transformation, which he self-styles as a deliberate contrast to Goku's Ultra Instinct.

Ultra Ego ultimately comes off as a watered-down parody of Ultra Instinct, with a dose of the old Saiyan motto of "I'll get stronger from all this catastrophic organ failure". Despite all that hype, Vegeta couldn't obtain a single victory with it. Worse, his anxiety about Freeza is validated, and the gap between them is larger than they ever imagined.

I find myself wondering about the trajectory of Vegeta's arc after this. His attempts to prove himself as Goku's equal and opposite were ill-conceived. Although he's stronger than ever, he's possibly at his lowest point in terms of morale. The Super Hero movie had a scene of Vegeta contemplating the truth behind Jiren's strength. I'm trying to imagine how a future Super arc would deal with Vegeta continuing to find new ways of strengthening both his body and mind, rather than slavishly mirroring Goku every step of the way.

It's truly sad that the story just splutters out there, with the open-ended denouement of the Granolah arc still unresolved. It's not just about what Freeza may do with his newfound power - it's about how the heroes are gonna deal with this problem. This may be a hurdle that raw power alone cannot overcome - emulating the conclusion that can be drawn from the end of the Majin Buu arc.

There are plenty of other characters that had potential to go places. Jiren lost the ideological war about the meaning of strength in the Tournament of Power, so it would have been amazing to see how much his encounter with Goku changed his outlook in a future arc. What's Granolah going to do with his last couple of years alive? What are Dr. Hedo and Gamma #1 up to at Capsule Corp? All these powerful allies across the multiverse waiting for another chance to job... Err, I mean, "shine".

I'm okay with open-ended finales. Hell, the original manga ended this way, yet thematically, it still felt conclusive. Uub was deliberately introduced late enough that nobody would really get too attached to him or wonder what would happen after he flew off on Goku's back. With Super, it instead feels like we've been watching a play through to the end of the second act, with a metric shitload of unfired Chekhov's Guns lying all over the floor... and we're still waiting for a "BANG". What kind of postmodernist fringe festival shit is this? I'd want my money back.

*let's be honest, Toriyama's creative involvement towards the last few arcs seems to have been minimal beyond a few core plot beats, such as Planet Cereal having a Namekian and Dragon Balls. Still, I see that last series of panels from Chapter 103 as a fitting farewell to Toriyama through Piccolo.

[JulieYBM]

There's definitely always a story to tell and I do hope that these loose threads get picked back up at some point. As someone who really liked Vegeta's chiller attitude in the Battle of Gods film, I would really like to see that brought back for more scenes where he doesn't feel like he perpetually has a stick up his ass, especially if it involved his family. It'll be interesting to see what Toyotaro is allowed to work with when the comic returns, because I know that these things typically push the big action-heavy arcs harder.

[LoganForkHands73]

There's definitely always a story to tell and I do hope that these loose threads get picked back up at some point. As someone who really liked Vegeta's chiller attitude in the Battle of Gods film, I would really like to see that brought back for more scenes where he doesn't feel like he perpetually has a stick up his ass, especially if it involved his family. It'll be interesting to see what Toyotaro is allowed to work with when the comic returns, because I know that these things typically push the big action-heavy arcs harder.

Yeah, and I think Toyotaro did a fine job of balancing Vegeta's personality so he wasn't bugging out every five minutes, though he slipped into bad habits quite often. Though now you mention it, it's interesting that Vegeta rarely acts that chill again after Battle of Gods. Beerus and Whis added much stress into his life, it seems.

I was occasionally critical of Toyotaro's "fanboy-isms" bleeding into the writing, but his approach wasn't entirely without merit, because it seemed to me that he was much more interested in breathing a bit of three-dimensionality into these characters that was often lacking in his mentor's latter-day work. And that is very much the impetus of a fan writer, they want to elevate the material in any way they can. Lord knows Toyotaro didn't always succeed in that objective, but in retrospect, I applaud his effort.

I liked Daima just fine, but its returning cast received hardly any meaningful development, while the new characters had, at best, fairly rudimentary growth arcs that were sadly not as compelling as they could have been. People ragged on Jiren for being a dull, yet there's somehow pages and pages of analysis and tropes about him online. It's fun to talk about him (and Zamasu, and Beerus, and...). Even disregarding Daima relatively flying under the radar compared to Super, I've yet to see the same level of discussion for Glorio, Panzy and Gomah. I've seen some, pretty much only on this forum, but it's just like... there's not much to even say in response to it. Every character is an open-and-shut case. That simplicity can be appealing, especially where Toriyama's writing is concerned, but it doesn't scratch the same itch for me.

[JulieYBM]

There's definitely always a story to tell and I do hope that these loose threads get picked back up at some point. As someone who really liked Vegeta's chiller attitude in the Battle of Gods film, I would really like to see that brought back for more scenes where he doesn't feel like he perpetually has a stick up his ass, especially if it involved his family. It'll be interesting to see what Toyotaro is allowed to work with when the comic returns, because I know that these things typically push the big action-heavy arcs harder.

Yeah, and I think Toyotaro did a fine job of balancing Vegeta's personality so he wasn't bugging out every five minutes, though he slipped into bad habits quite often. Though now you mention it, it's interesting that Vegeta rarely acts that chill again after Battle of Gods. Beerus and Whis added much stress into his life, it seems.

I was occasionally critical of Toyotaro's "fanboy-isms" bleeding into the writing, but his approach wasn't entirely without merit, because it seemed to me that he was much more interested in breathing a bit of three-dimensionality into these characters that was often lacking in his mentor's latter-day work. And that is very much the impetus of a fan writer, they want to elevate the material in any way they can. Lord knows Toyotaro didn't always succeed in that objective, but in retrospect, I applaud his effort.

I liked Daima just fine, but its returning cast received hardly any meaningful development, while the new characters had, at best, fairly rudimentary growth arcs that were sadly not as compelling as they could have been. People ragged on Jiren for being a dull, yet there's somehow pages and pages of analysis and tropes about him online. It's fun to talk about him (and Zamasu, and Beerus, and...). Even disregarding Daima relatively flying under the radar compared to Super, I've yet to see the same level of discussion for Glorio, Panzy and Gomah. I've seen some, pretty much only on this forum, but it's just like... there's not much to even say in response to it. Every character is an open-and-shut case. That simplicity can be appealing, especially where Toriyama's writing is concerned, but it doesn't scratch the same itch for me.

Battle of Gods was such a breath of fresh air in that regard. Vegeta felt more like a normal, relatable person who had his priorities and thought his actions through, even if he was running around trying to keep Beerus from snapping. It's an approach to writing that I wish was handled more often, because the sort of perpetually angry and being incapable of any emotion other than that and having no sense of fun really bores me. It's a style of writing that Dragon Ball makes feel very much like pandering to a notion of who the character is. Everything is a tool in creating art and I wish more people used more tools to create their stories in this franchise.

Hell, at least with the Tournament of Power we got to see Vegeta be very much of the mindset of, "Hey, I don't want to miss out on my kid's birth!"

Let character's have lives outside of fighting, it makes the fighting more exciting!

[funrush]

The thing about Ultra Ego is that even though it theoretically gives Vegeta some Hulk-esque "he gets stronger as the fight goes on" powers, at the end of the day Vegeta narratively is the jobber. He is the villain's warmup before Goku shows up. So you have Vegeta go up against a guy who's so much stronger than him that he gets KOd before the Ultra Ego powerboost can build enough momentum to matter.

Now if the writer wanted Vegeta to actually win, the Ultra Ego thing could be a truly epic way of achieving it. Like a Freeza vs. Goku length fight but instead of where Goku was significantly weaker until he hits Super Saiyan 1 for the first time, Vegeta would be gradually getting stronger throughout the whole fight. But this requires the writer to actually want Vegeta to win against a big bad for once.

I agree that he had a pretty interesting direction going. He could become the new God of Destruction, or maybe not. I loved the idea of sending him to Yardrat and teaching him new techniques. I'm always excited to see new moves that aren't just ki blasts or punches.

[Vegard Aune]

Honestly, with Super's track record of Goku either not being the one to deliver the final blow or the good guys flat-out not winning at all, I don't see why Vegeta can't defeat the main antagonist once. If Android 17 could win the Tournament of Power, Vegeta can deliver the knockout blow on Gas or Moro. Dude's in a bit of a weird spot of being generally treated as just as much of a protagonist as Goku is, yet somehow always being relegated to playing support for Goku when the chips are down. And I don't know about anyone else, but the fact that Android 17 won the Tournament of Power was one of my favorite things about that entire arc, for being simultaneously unexpected, but also perfectly logical and narratively satisfying.

[LoganForkHands73]

The thing about Ultra Ego is that even though it theoretically gives Vegeta some Hulk-esque "he gets stronger as the fight goes on" powers, at the end of the day Vegeta narratively is the jobber. He is the villain's warmup before Goku shows up. So you have Vegeta go up against a guy who's so much stronger than him that he gets KOd before the Ultra Ego powerboost can build enough momentum to matter.

Now if the writer wanted Vegeta to actually win, the Ultra Ego thing could be a truly epic way of achieving it. Like a Freeza vs. Goku length fight but instead of where Goku was significantly weaker until he hits Super Saiyan 1 for the first time, Vegeta would be gradually getting stronger throughout the whole fight. But this requires the writer to actually want Vegeta to win against a big bad for once.

I agree that he had a pretty interesting direction going. He could become the new God of Destruction, or maybe not. I loved the idea of sending him to Yardrat and teaching him new techniques. I'm always excited to see new moves that aren't just ki blasts or punches.

IMO, Toyotaro was setting Ultra Ego to be fundamentally flawed. Vegeta has always been a durable bastard, but his body still has limits. He can't self-heal or survive devastating wounds like Freeza, Cell or Buu. One of my favourite moments in the Granolah arc is when the adrenaline rush wears off, the pain suddenly floods into his head, and he realises he's taken far too much damage. Let's be real, in any fight, the objective should be to avoid as many hits as possible. Standing there and letting the opponent hit you not only a terrible idea (unless you're in Rocky II), it actively goes against every self-preservation instinct a person should have. Yet throughout the arc, Vegeta still touts Ultra Ego as a power derived from instinct, even though he wants to distinguish it from Ultra Instinct.

I get the impression that Vegeta latched onto the "zenkai" adjacent power-up method because he was in a weird headspace at the time, torn up about his Saiyan heritage. Beerus told him that he needed to become a cold, single-minded destroyer to succeed. So naturally, he channelled the old days when he was hammer-punching Namekian elders and abusing zenkai boosts left and right.

I don't know if Spirit Control really suited Vegeta much better, but at least it worked. Vegeta had to humble himself to a teacher to achieve it, after claiming that he never needed mentorship in the Tournament of Power. I wonder if he would have realised his mistake in abandoning it in favour of Ultra Ego and revisited it later down the line. Or he could mix the principles of everything he's learned like Goku, rather than trying to stubbornly cling to one path only.

Honestly, with Super's track record of Goku either not being the one to deliver the final blow or the good guys flat-out not winning at all, I don't see why Vegeta can't defeat the main antagonist once. If Android 17 could win the Tournament of Power, Vegeta can deliver the knockout blow on Gas or Moro. Dude's in a bit of a weird spot of being generally treated as just as much of a protagonist as Goku is, yet somehow always being relegated to playing support for Goku when the chips are down. And I don't know about anyone else, but the fact that Android 17 won the Tournament of Power was one of my favorite things about that entire arc, for being simultaneously unexpected, but also perfectly logical and narratively satisfying.

I think Toyotaro was pushing the long-awaited Big Vegeta Dub as far back as possible so that when it eventually happened, it would be legendary. Vegeta eventually getting a win would feel like the culmination of all his struggles, but he would have to find full conviction in his path before he can fully earn it. Android #17 is a purely logical and underhanded pragmatist, so he doesn't feel the need to earn a victory in the same way.

Until then, Vegeta's NOT ALLOOOOOWED TO GET THE WIN, HE'S NOT ALLOOOOOOWED

[Koitsukai]

I really liked Vegeta's development in the Granny arc. With UE he is supposed to become a cold-blooded killer, a destroyer, like he used to be, like every other saiyan, like he was taught to be. But he cannot do it anymore, he is willing to die at the hands of a saiyan victim rather than becoming something he no longer is.

I also think that's why he chose to exploit the zenkai part of UE, because he lacks the mindset Beerus was trying teaching him. Like those gym bros that can't lift properly but still try to lift a lot of weight, even if it means hurting themselves.

It's a shame all of this was cut short and probaby never will be continued.

[Lionel]

I really liked Vegeta's development in the Granny arc. With UE he is supposed to become a cold-blooded killer, a destroyer, like he used to be, like every other saiyan, like he was taught to be. But he cannot do it anymore, he is willing to die at the hands of a saiyan victim rather than becoming something he no longer is.

I also think that's why he chose to exploit the zenkai part of UE, because he lacks the mindset Beerus was trying teaching him. Like those gym bros that can't lift properly but still try to lift a lot of weight, even if it means hurting themselves.

It's a shame all of this was cut short and probaby never will be continued.

I wish we could have seen how he might have been able to do what Goku did with Ultra Instinct and find a compromise between his form's inherent state of mind and the personality growth he's undergone. Less of a sadistic brute, something more in the middle, if that makes sense.

Also, the whole bit with taking damage to become stronger isn't very smart either, I agree. Like what happens if they aim for Vegeta's head? He starts bleeding out significantly. It won't matter how powerful Vegeta is if he's delirious and addled from blood loss.

[LoganForkHands73]

I really liked Vegeta's development in the Granny arc. With UE he is supposed to become a cold-blooded killer, a destroyer, like he used to be, like every other saiyan, like he was taught to be. But he cannot do it anymore, he is willing to die at the hands of a saiyan victim rather than becoming something he no longer is.

I also think that's why he chose to exploit the zenkai part of UE, because he lacks the mindset Beerus was trying teaching him. Like those gym bros that can't lift properly but still try to lift a lot of weight, even if it means hurting themselves.

It's a shame all of this was cut short and probaby never will be continued.

Exactly, it's all about the mindset. The gym bro comparison is a good analogy. Both Goku and Vegeta have always pushed themselves beyond their limits, but Vegeta in particular has a habit of pushing himself beyond what's sensible. He'll get stronger even if it means breaking his body again and again. I think Vegeta relishes a certain amount of self-punishment to prove how tough he is, but the Granolah arc proved that he isn't a total sadomasochist like Goku Black. He claims that he enjoys the pain, but in most of the panels, he's wincing or gritting his teeth.

It occurs to me that I never really intended for this thread to be all about Vegeta. He is a whore for the spotlight, I guess.

I wish we could have seen how he might have been able to do what Goku did with Ultra Instinct and find a compromise between his form's inherent state of mind and the personality growth he's undergone. Less of a sadistic brute, something more in the middle, if that makes sense.

Also, the whole bit with taking damage to become stronger isn't very smart either, I agree. Like what happens if they aim for Vegeta's head? He starts bleeding out significantly. It won't matter how powerful Vegeta is if he's delirious and addled from blood loss.

Agreed. I think Beerus's teachings are partly to blame for Vegeta failing to find any kind of middle ground. Whereas Whis encourages Goku to forge his own path, Beerus tells Vegeta that he has to be a certain way to maximise his potential, and he has to commit to it 100%. Ultra Instinct is fluid, but Destruction power is rigid.

I suppose this leads into the whole thing about Goku and 'Geets coming to terms with the Saiyans' bloodsoaked past. The narrative pushes them into not only accepting this, but almost celebrating it to a degree, what with that scene of Monaito giving them classic Saiyan battle armour. Regardless of how great a guy Bardock turned out to be, it's such an odd scene for a genocide survivor to happily create outfits based on his oppressors.

[JulieYBM]

I've never gotten the sort of 'gym bro' thing from either Gokuu or Vegeta, but I imagine a lot of that sort of fan interpretation of those two comes from the fact that people still view these characters through the lens of the old FUNimation dub and their attempt at making Dragon Ball have a sort of 'American masculinity' to it. Gokuu just doesn't come across as a 'man' to me in the same way that I don't really view Vegeta as a 'manly man'. Like, he's a snappy, spoiled little prince. They're both very faggy, I think.

He claims that he enjoys the pain, but in most of the panels, he's wincing or gritting his teeth.

That's what all the bratty bottoms say.