Dragon Ball should be understood as multiple valid continuities rather than a single "canon"

[NeverRamza]

Each new significant release brings the potential of someone involved in production going "hey, maybe if all this crap made sense moving forward, that would be better for the brand." Other big unwieldy franchises attempt it, such as American comic books, and people generally enjoy being able to discuss coherent lore more so than the incoherent.

I know people tend to complain about the canon debate on this forum but to a lot of normies I know, the type of people who wouldn't be caught dead making a post on Reddit let alone on a message board, yet still dorky enough to watch anime, the mess Dragon Ball has gotten itself into with continuities and sidelining Super has annoyed them away from the series. Not everyone just wants to see random stories featuring the lovable Goku without any care to what happened before. A lot of people fell in love with the series because of the long, nutty, multigeneration continuity. Lore was actually one of this franchise's strong points year ago. They threw that out because they didn't care and the people who did care now like Dragon Ball less.

Super was great. Goku got massively dumber, which is terrible, but it felt like a legitimate continuation and the way of the future. Then, well, that got tossed aside and then Daima slowly raised its middle finger (despite it not being that bad).

If there's ever a major effort to get Dragon Ball back on track and not have it be a legacy brand to sell a dumb card game, continuity could be addressed. As it is, they probably can't discuss continuity though due to the corporate in-fighting.

[JulieYBM]

Dragon Ball was always about selling dumb shit, though. I don't even disagree, because as a writer myself, I'd be anal enough to make everything fit together if I was in charge, but manga like Dragon Ball typically don't aim for a ton of continuity control because they're owned and controlled by the original creator. With, say, Gundam, it's easier for them to establish official timelines, because it's owned by Sunrise, rather than an individual. US franchises work similarly: being corporate-owned means they can be run as such by an assigned in-house team.

Heck, Mark Waid—who is currently writing New History of the DC Universe—is an unofficial historian for DC Comics right now and is the one going through every issue since the 1930s to create a timeline of events for current writers to be able to reference for writing modern DC stuff.

I agree that Dragon Ball would benefit from a proper continuity team on a creative-level, but it's a franchise aimed primarily at kids and kids don't really give a shit. From Iyoku's likely point of view, all kids need to know is to read the original comic and watch and read what Toriyama was involved with.

[super michael]

Continuity also means to take character growth into account, they shouldn't regress their character just because they are lazy to come up with good ideas.

DBS Super Hero Goku didn't act like Goku at all.
DBS episode of Beerus in a costume, that wasn't Goku at all but a clown that looks like Goku.
DBS Goku Black Saga, that Goku was very dumb and forgetful.

They had many ways to make good gags, but instead chose to be lazy.


There is nothing funny with characters being forbidden from training and fighting, it is just annoying when it happens so much.


Ben 10 Ultimate Alien they got rid of Ben character growth, since CN thought he was too mature in Alien Force, so the writers had to make the character worse in Ultimate Alien. Ben 10 Omniverse they made Ben worse and the art style is also worse than the previous Ben 10.

[SupremeKai25]

I'm not sure why some people in this thread are saying that Super "has been pushed aside". There's a legal dispute going on since one year BEFORE Toriyama died, so new content is unlikely to happen until that legal dispute is resolved. But aside from that, there is absolutely no reason at all to believe future content won't continue from where Super left off.

That gives us a pretty coherent and logical continuity that is simple to follow.

As for Daima, it was never going to tie to Super because it was conceived as a celebration of GT that all the 1990s Millennials that grew up with GT could watch with their kids. That's why Daima turned everyone into babies like GT (and did adventure and exploration well, unlike GT).

Sparking Zero, the biggest Dragon Ball videogame ever, featured an all-Super cover, which was a delight to see. Any belief that Super will be pushed aside in favor of a new "world" is unfounded.

[Jord]

So that is why there was no actual Super-branded video game during it's run. We got multiple games like Kararot and FighterZ, and of course Xenoverse marched on. None of them wanted to try branding it as Super. And then...poof! Super anime got cancelled after only around 130 episodes. Teasing a return of the anime that never happened.

Then we got Daima and people moved on from Super.

DBS Super Hero Goku didn't act like Goku at all.
DBS episode of Beerus in a costume, that wasn't Goku at all but a clown that looks like Goku.
DBS Goku Black Saga, that Goku was very dumb and forgetful.

They had many ways to make good gags, but instead chose to be lazy.


There is nothing funny with characters being forbidden from training and fighting, it is just annoying when it happens so much.

Goku could have sensed KI. Heck, even young Goku from DB could recognize the opponent by smell. I actually wonder why they dumbed Goku that much for Super. Both GT and Daima did a way better job.

[super michael]

There was legal dispute when it came to remastering and remaking Sonic 3 & Knuckles, due to legal issues with some stage music. That is the reason why Whitehead couldn't release Sonic 3 & Knuckles on mobile and console when Michael Jackson died. However with Sonic Origins they came up with a solution, to replace any music that has legal issues in Sonic 3 & Knuckles.


As for DBS I hope whatever legal issue there are to get sorted. I only want DBS to return if they stop exaggerating certain characters flaws for no reason and put effort into their writing, I am looking at Goku, Chi Chi and Buu. Goten and Trunks they were written good in DBS Super Hero.

Daima may have turned the characters into physical babies and children, but their mind is still sharp as ever.

So that is why there was no actual Super-branded video game during it's run. We got multiple games like Kararot and FighterZ, and of course Xenoverse marched on. None of them wanted to try branding it as Super. And then...poof! Super anime got cancelled after only around 130 episodes. Teasing a return of the anime that never happened.

Then we got Daima and people moved on from Super.

DBS Super Hero Goku didn't act like Goku at all.
DBS episode of Beerus in a costume, that wasn't Goku at all but a clown that looks like Goku.
DBS Goku Black Saga, that Goku was very dumb and forgetful.

They had many ways to make good gags, but instead chose to be lazy.


There is nothing funny with characters being forbidden from training and fighting, it is just annoying when it happens so much.

Goku could have sensed KI. Heck, even young Goku from DB could recognize the opponent by smell. I actually wonder why they dumbed Goku that much for Super. Both GT and Daima did a way better job.

That is true we got Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball GT games, but we never got a game called Dragon Ball Super at all.
Here is a short list:

Dragon Ball: Advanced Adventure
Dragon Ball: Revenge of King Piccolo
Dragon Ball Z Budokai
Dragon Ball Z Budokai Tenkaichi
Dragon Ball Z Kakarot
Dragon Ball GT Final Bout
Dragon Ball GT: Transformation


Yes exactly Goku could find a stone by his sense of smell and even recognise anyone in Dragon Ball. With his sense of ki, he could tell if someone was strong or weak and even their identity. They made Goku really dumb in DBS for no good reason, he was normally the focus of the dumb moments that happened in DBS. Daima they toned it down a lot.

[Vegard Aune]

And then...poof! Super anime got cancelled after only around 130 episodes. Teasing a return of the anime that never happened.

Super got a movie right after it wrapped up, and also 130 episodes is more than most anime ever get nowadays. The show aired for three years straight. Is that less than classic DB's run by a significant amount? Absolutely. But it also lasted more than twice as long as GT, and both Broly and Super Hero kept the brand alive thereafter, though obviously at this point its future is uncertain.

[JulieYBM]

Yeah, ending at 131 episodes does not constitute a 'cancelation'. They decided not to keep producing new episodes and shifted to a movie, instead. Long-running action-heavy anime all have been doing this since the latter half of the 2010s.

[super michael]

They don't want to animate the manga exclusive chapters, therefore the games can't add those story, characters and forms. That is what it means by not animating the manga.

If they could add the manga exclusive content into the game, then it wouldn't be problem if it never got animated.


DBS writers at times didn't put any effort at all. Sometimes I had doubts if those writers read the manga or watch the anime at all. There were times that it looks like amateur were writing the anime.

[kemuri07]

I dont buy into the notion that continuity inherently makes a story good. In fact, I would argue that one of the worst things that happened to fandom is the utter fetishizing of lore. Like I'm not saying that your story shouldn't make sense. But the notion that every event should connect with each other for the sake of continuity...all that does is limit the story. It's why fucking Star Wars is only about Darth Vader and Skywalker--because it can only be about those two assholes.

I mean I get it: when a story pulls this off, it can be some of the best storytelling in the world. "Oh yeah, remember that one thing that happened in the first chapter? Well that plot points pays off several years later...and it's awesome!" Most stories cannot pull this off. something like Dragon Ball shouldn't even attempt it. And I think such a rigorous commitment to continuity would take away what works about Dragon Ball, a franchise that reinvented itself several times over whenever Toriyama needed it to.

[Jord]

And then...poof! Super anime got cancelled after only around 130 episodes. Teasing a return of the anime that never happened.

Super got a movie right after it wrapped up, and also 130 episodes is more than most anime ever get nowadays. The show aired for three years straight. Is that less than classic DB's run by a significant amount? Absolutely. But it also lasted more than twice as long as GT, and both Broly and Super Hero kept the brand alive thereafter, though obviously at this point its future is uncertain.

Dragon Ball isn't like most animes. It's one of the biggest anime brands in the world. I believe it's only second to one piece.
And good point, it did last about twice as long as GT. The difference? GT aired at the tail end of a 10 year DB anime run.
Super aired after a DB anime drought of about 18 years(!) in which the brand got tons of new fans due to video games, reruns, dubs and such. To only have twice as much episodes as GT and getting cancelled when there is still story left is a huge letdown.

[Koitsukai]

The Broly movie is the worst offender of the franchise, that movie got cancelled after 100 minutes.

[super michael]

And then...poof! Super anime got cancelled after only around 130 episodes. Teasing a return of the anime that never happened.

Super got a movie right after it wrapped up, and also 130 episodes is more than most anime ever get nowadays. The show aired for three years straight. Is that less than classic DB's run by a significant amount? Absolutely. But it also lasted more than twice as long as GT, and both Broly and Super Hero kept the brand alive thereafter, though obviously at this point its future is uncertain.

Dragon Ball isn't like most animes. It's one of the biggest anime brands in the world. I believe it's only second to one piece.
And good point, it did last about twice as long as GT. The difference? GT aired at the tail end of a 10 year DB anime run.
Super aired after a DB anime drought of about 18 years(!) in which the brand got tons of new fans due to video games, reruns, dubs and such. To only have twice as much episodes as GT and getting cancelled when there is still story left is a huge letdown.

Lets not forget Vegeta was going to get to Universe 6 planet Sadala to visit, which never happened at all.

I would like to use in the game UI Avatar Goku, UE Hakai Vegeta, Granolah, Moro and Gas. I would like to use Black Freeza.

[JulieYBM]

And then...poof! Super anime got cancelled after only around 130 episodes. Teasing a return of the anime that never happened.

Super got a movie right after it wrapped up, and also 130 episodes is more than most anime ever get nowadays. The show aired for three years straight. Is that less than classic DB's run by a significant amount? Absolutely. But it also lasted more than twice as long as GT, and both Broly and Super Hero kept the brand alive thereafter, though obviously at this point its future is uncertain.

Dragon Ball isn't like most animes. It's one of the biggest anime brands in the world. I believe it's only second to one piece.
And good point, it did last about twice as long as GT. The difference? GT aired at the tail end of a 10 year DB anime run.
Super aired after a DB anime drought of about 18 years(!) in which the brand got tons of new fans due to video games, reruns, dubs and such. To only have twice as much episodes as GT and getting cancelled when there is still story left is a huge letdown.

The anime industry is in a completely different place now. Things worked differently in 2015-2018 than they did in 1986-1997. If Dragon Ball was some failed franchise then Super wouldn't be continually referenced and expanded upon outside of that 2015-2018 television series.

[SupremeKai25]

Unpopular opinion, perhaps, but I really liked the ending of 131. I felt like it concluded all the major plotlines established in Super, and works perfectly well as an ending. Sure, it would be cool to see Goku vs. Beerus rematch, but that is not necessary to conclude the story. At least for the anime, where it is made pretty clear that Goku mastered Ultra Instinct and may have surpassed Beerus.

With that being said, I cannot imagine a world where Toyotaro doesn't continue the set-up from the Granolah arc.

Black Freeza, anyone? Most evil villain in the universe just unlocked an almighty new form with which he oneshot the Saiyans? You can't sweep that under the rug.

Like, clearly there are plans to continue the story. It's just this legal dispute that is blocking new Super content. And this legal dispute began before Toriyama's death and it will take a lot more time for it to resolve. But I am patient, and I will eagerly wait.

[super michael]

Unpopular opinion, perhaps, but I really liked the ending of 131. I felt like it concluded all the major plotlines established in Super, and works perfectly well as an ending. Sure, it would be cool to see Goku vs. Beerus rematch, but that is not necessary to conclude the story. At least for the anime, where it is made pretty clear that Goku mastered Ultra Instinct and may have surpassed Beerus.

With that being said, I cannot imagine a world where Toyotaro doesn't continue the set-up from the Granolah arc.

Black Freeza, anyone? Most evil villain in the universe just unlocked an almighty new form with which he oneshot the Saiyans? You can't sweep that under the rug.

Like, clearly there are plans to continue the story. It's just this legal dispute that is blocking new Super content. And this legal dispute began before Toriyama's death and it will take a lot more time for it to resolve. But I am patient, and I will eagerly wait.

In the anime Goku can no longer use Ultra Instinct, this was mentioned in the final episode of DBS. In DBS Broly Movie Goku failed to access his Ultra Instinct power and in DBS Super Hero he was a clown, who doesn't show any signs of improvement.

They had many years to animate the manga exclusive chapters, yet they don't want to do it. Toriyama was still alive at the time when the manga finished DBS Super Hero chapters.

[Vegard Aune]

Unpopular opinion, perhaps, but I really liked the ending of 131. I felt like it concluded all the major plotlines established in Super, and works perfectly well as an ending. Sure, it would be cool to see Goku vs. Beerus rematch, but that is not necessary to conclude the story. At least for the anime, where it is made pretty clear that Goku mastered Ultra Instinct and may have surpassed Beerus.

With that being said, I cannot imagine a world where Toyotaro doesn't continue the set-up from the Granolah arc.

Black Freeza, anyone? Most evil villain in the universe just unlocked an almighty new form with which he oneshot the Saiyans? You can't sweep that under the rug.

Like, clearly there are plans to continue the story. It's just this legal dispute that is blocking new Super content. And this legal dispute began before Toriyama's death and it will take a lot more time for it to resolve. But I am patient, and I will eagerly wait.

Episode 131 worked as an ending. Broly kinda messed that up by confirming without a shadow of a doubt that Freeza would continue to try for revenge and was now going to be a recurring issue for Goku and Vegeta to deal with, his final scene even hinting that he still wants to win Broly over to his side so as to even out the playing field. Like, even beyond him literally saying "I'll be back!", his final scene in that movie was very much framed as a "To be continued". Which the manga of course then doubled, tripled and quadrupled down on in the Granolah arc. So yeah, the window for the Tournament of Power being a satisfying ending to Super has come and gone, with both the anime and the manga in their own ways tugging at loose threads that weren't that noteworthy in the episode itself.

[SupremeKai25]

Unpopular opinion, perhaps, but I really liked the ending of 131. I felt like it concluded all the major plotlines established in Super, and works perfectly well as an ending. Sure, it would be cool to see Goku vs. Beerus rematch, but that is not necessary to conclude the story. At least for the anime, where it is made pretty clear that Goku mastered Ultra Instinct and may have surpassed Beerus.

With that being said, I cannot imagine a world where Toyotaro doesn't continue the set-up from the Granolah arc.

Black Freeza, anyone? Most evil villain in the universe just unlocked an almighty new form with which he oneshot the Saiyans? You can't sweep that under the rug.

Like, clearly there are plans to continue the story. It's just this legal dispute that is blocking new Super content. And this legal dispute began before Toriyama's death and it will take a lot more time for it to resolve. But I am patient, and I will eagerly wait.

Episode 131 worked as an ending. Broly kinda messed that up by confirming without a shadow of a doubt that Freeza would continue to try for revenge and was now going to be a recurring issue for Goku and Vegeta to deal with, his final scene even hinting that he still wants to win Broly over to his side so as to even out the playing field. Like, even beyond him literally saying "I'll be back!", his final scene in that movie was very much framed as a "To be continued". Which the manga of course then doubled, tripled and quadrupled down on in the Granolah arc. So yeah, the window for the Tournament of Power being a satisfying ending to Super has come and gone, with both the anime and the manga in their own ways tugging at loose threads that weren't that noteworthy in the episode itself.

Yes. I thought Freeza's goal at the end of the Broly movie was to take control of Broly in some way and unleash him against the Saiyans, because he realized he by himself has been left in the dust.

Then in Super Hero they are trying to protect Broly from Freeza by giving him refuge in Beerus' planet.

This seems to be another storyline that has been put on hold.

There's also that anime-only set-up of Freeza planning to usurp the gods...

... which is a whole other can of worms (all those fanfictions and theories about "gods civil war", "rebellion against the gods", "big mUlTivErSaL war" and whatnot, they all spawn from that Freeza's line in the anime where he said he wants to usurp the gods.)

Seems like they can't end Super until the elephant in the room, Freeza, has been addressed.

The reason why 131 works as an ending is because the Anime treats Mastered UI Goku as the pinnacle of power and finesse. Even Beerus is stunned and on the verge of tearing up when Goku masters UI. Sure, he cannot access it at will, but he seems pretty confident that he'll be able to deal with Freeza if he tries to be a nuisance again.

I definitely agree that the Broly movie kind of ruins that "peaceful" mood with Freeza having a clear plan to get revenge, a plan that could succeed if he can somehow take control of Broly (maybe replicating Paragus' device). This is good set-up, now it remains to be seen what Toyotaro is planning.

[WittyUsername]

The Tournament of Power could’ve worked as a finale if it didn’t have that lingering thread about Freeza rebuilding his empire. It’s kinda difficult to accept that everything would be all well and good after that, especially when the arc already established just how barren Universe 7 apparently is. Still, it would’ve at least been better than leaving things on a cliffhanger with Black Freeza.

Of course, there’s also the fact that Goku apparently hasn’t surpassed Beerus yet, which has been his primary goal in Super. An ideal finale to the Super era would be Goku and Beerus having their rematch.

[JulieYBM]

Does it really matter either way? Putting aside the fact that the Freeza thread will inevitably be tied up someday, it isn't like one can't just come up with their own idea.