Dragon Ball should be understood as multiple valid continuities rather than a single "canon"

[WittyUsername]

Does it really matter either way? Putting aside the fact that the Freeza thread will inevitably be tied up someday, it isn't like one can't just come up with their own idea.

Are we certain it’ll be tied up though? Toriyama’s passing seems to have put the future of the franchise in limbo.

[JulieYBM]

Does it really matter either way? Putting aside the fact that the Freeza thread will inevitably be tied up someday, it isn't like one can't just come up with their own idea.

Are we certain it’ll be tied up though? Toriyama’s passing seems to have put the future of the franchise in limbo.

I mean, how many more decades do you plan on living? It'll happen eventually and even if it doesn't, it's hardly difficult to come up with your own idea for how it might be resolved.

[WittyUsername]

Does it really matter either way? Putting aside the fact that the Freeza thread will inevitably be tied up someday, it isn't like one can't just come up with their own idea.

Are we certain it’ll be tied up though? Toriyama’s passing seems to have put the future of the franchise in limbo.

I mean, how many more decades do you plan on living? It'll happen eventually and even if it doesn't, it's hardly difficult to come up with your own idea for how it might be resolved.

Life will continue to go on with or without DBS getting a proper conclusion. There’s just something inherently annoying about stories that end on cliffhangers.

[JulieYBM]

Are we certain it’ll be tied up though? Toriyama’s passing seems to have put the future of the franchise in limbo.

I mean, how many more decades do you plan on living? It'll happen eventually and even if it doesn't, it's hardly difficult to come up with your own idea for how it might be resolved.

Life will continue to go on with or without DBS getting a proper conclusion. There’s just something inherently annoying about stories that end on cliffhangers.

This is why I keep telling people to go do other stuff. "Will it continue?" Yeah, we live in a capitalist hellscape, of course it will. Check back in a few decades, you might get what you want.

[MasenkoHA]

Are we certain it’ll be tied up though? Toriyama’s passing seems to have put the future of the franchise in limbo.

I mean, how many more decades do you plan on living? It'll happen eventually and even if it doesn't, it's hardly difficult to come up with your own idea for how it might be resolved.

Life will continue to go on with or without DBS getting a proper conclusion. There’s just something inherently annoying about stories that end on cliffhangers.

Can it really be said Super ended on a cliffhanger? The Tournament of Power had reached its conclusion. There weren’t any loose ends. Freeza is back but he’s basically just Snidely Whiplash at this point

[WittyUsername]

I mean, how many more decades do you plan on living? It'll happen eventually and even if it doesn't, it's hardly difficult to come up with your own idea for how it might be resolved.

Life will continue to go on with or without DBS getting a proper conclusion. There’s just something inherently annoying about stories that end on cliffhangers.

Can it really be said Super ended on a cliffhanger? The Tournament of Power had reached its conclusion. There weren’t any loose ends. Freeza is back but he’s basically just Snidely Whiplash at this point

I’m mostly referring to the manga, which set up the whole Black Freeza thing that has yet to be resolved.

[ABED]

Yeah, the DB Super anime doesn't end on a cliffhanger. Cliffhangers are about ending things when tension and conflict isn't resolved. Super has an open ending. The threads are resolved but the door is cracked open for further adventures. Even if we don't see them ever again, we can infer that the characters are out there doing their thing.

[M16U3L2015]

Super has an even more closed ending than the original manga with its open ending that leaves the reader imagining what Goku's training with Uub will be like (something GT decided to skip by doing a time skip at the beginning).

[SupremeKai25]

Super has an even more closed ending than the original manga with its open ending that leaves the reader imagining what Goku's training with Uub will be like (something GT decided to skip by doing a time skip at the beginning).

Also, the Broly movie and the Heroes anime are supposed to be the "new adventures" promised by the narrator.

The Super Dragon Ball Heroes anime is in fact a continuation that exists within the scope of the Super Anime, and the events of the Super Anime are canon for that Heroes anime. This is seen for example in how Fused Zamasu in Super Dragon Ball heroes has half of his body covered in stitches, because he's Anime Zamasu who turned himself into a grotesque monster.

Similarly, Broly movie is a direct continuation of the Tournament of Power (the events of the ToP are directly acknowledged at the start of the movie to make the timeline clear), so it's a "new adventure" after the tournament.

As I have said many times in the past, I love episode 131. It's such a cool, fulfilling ending to the Super Anime.

Also, this wait isn't really that bad. We had Super Hero three years ago. The manga adaptation two years ago. Daima 10 months ago. And even if Daima doesn't connect to Super (by design it's not supposed to), it's still part of Modern DB so I enjoy it for the modern artstyle that I find awesome.

[super michael]

Super has an even more closed ending than the original manga with its open ending that leaves the reader imagining what Goku's training with Uub will be like (something GT decided to skip by doing a time skip at the beginning).

Also, the Broly movie and the Heroes anime are supposed to be the "new adventures" promised by the narrator.

The Super Dragon Ball Heroes anime is in fact a continuation that exists within the scope of the Super Anime, and the events of the Super Anime are canon for that Heroes anime. This is seen for example in how Fused Zamasu in Super Dragon Ball heroes has half of his body covered in stitches, because he's Anime Zamasu who turned himself into a grotesque monster.

Similarly, Broly movie is a direct continuation of the Tournament of Power (the events of the ToP are directly acknowledged at the start of the movie to make the timeline clear), so it's a "new adventure" after the tournament.

As I have said many times in the past, I love episode 131. It's such a cool, fulfilling ending to the Super Anime.

Also, this wait isn't really that bad. We had Super Hero three years ago. The manga adaptation two years ago. Daima 10 months ago. And even if Daima doesn't connect to Super (by design it's not supposed to), it's still part of Modern DB so I enjoy it for the modern artstyle that I find awesome.

The games can't use any manga exclusive story, forms and characters, because the anime team doesn't animate the manga chapters. That is why it is bad that the manga chapters are still manga exclusive.



DBS anime and movie ruined certain characters, do they have the skills to fix them? Will they ever fix Goku, Chi Chi and Buu?

If I have to rate DBS anime by Goku only, I will give it a 2/10. DBS Super Hero I would rate it a 1/10, if I were only taking Goku into account.


Daima is written better than DBS anime.

[GokuHater]

The reason why 131 works as an ending is because the Anime treats Mastered UI Goku as the pinnacle of power and finesse. Even Beerus is stunned and on the verge of tearing up when Goku masters UI. Sure, he cannot access it at will, but he seems pretty confident that he'll be able to deal with Freeza if he tries to be a nuisance again.

Please bear in mind Goku being at the peak of his power was never a story beat used for story closure
Just look at "the good ol' days":

Namek:
Goku finally broke down after his best friends death and fulfilled an ancient propecy, managing to claim the title of a legendary, once in a thousand years warrior, who exceeded normal Saiyan power. With that unimagibale power he defeated the greatest threat they ever faced, the fearfull space emperor, who destroyed more planets and lives than any villain before.

Android saga:
Gohan finally managed to break his emotional barrier and unleashed his true power, something which was built up from day 1 we saw him.
As the only one from the Sayians he managed to reach a level far beyond Super Saiyan without any drawbacks.
With this unimaginable power he was able to defeat the most fierce warrior they have ever faced, built up from their own DNA.
With Goku gone, now Gohan is the most powerfull figher and will protect the Earth from any evil.

Even in Budokai Tenkaichi 23, Goku is said to be the most powerfull fighter on the Earth and if ever, Piccolo comes back, he will defeat him. He is even asked for postion of a god.

And even if we take Gokus' strength into consideration, in ToP he manages to fight with mastered Ultra Instinct against Jiren, sure, but it's established in the last scene he cannot use it anymore (whatever that means).
So I really don't think 131 was ever meant to be a way of closing up the story.

Did it work that way? Meh. It has it's ups and downs in this context.

[funrush]

As for Daima, it was never going to tie to Super because it was conceived as a celebration of GT that all the 1990s Millennials that grew up with GT could watch with their kids. That's why Daima turned everyone into babies like GT (and did adventure and exploration well, unlike GT).

Hey I liked the Black Star Dragon Ball arc! Lol. I don't think it's super clear that Daima is supposed to be separate from Super. I mean it obviously doesn't fit, the Kibitokai thing is totally different than in Super and unexplainable, and while the other continuity problems could be fixed with writing, it's a good handful of things that don't line up as of now. From what I've read Toriyama doesn't care about continuity and it's thanks to his editors that the Dragon Ball manga was plothole-free. If Toriyama had lived, would we have seen the Tertian Oculus or even some of the Demon World characters show up in Super interacting with the main characters as though the events of Daima happened, like how Jaco showed up in Super? Maybe! I also wonder if perhaps Toriyama worked on the broad strokes of the story for Daima, he died, and then the other people working on the show decided to go with what he came up with untouched rather than try to "correct" his work to make it line up with Super.

Toyble as the main brain of Dragon Ball moving forward got asked "How does Daima fit with everything?" and instead of trying to breakdown how it does his response was basically "Everything is canon!" and Torishima says "There is no canon or correct order of events, Toriyama was a mess" so I don't know. I think either they will throw continuity aside and just cram Daima into Super's timeline and any fans who have gripes about the plotholes will just have to deal with it, or they'll treat Daima/Super/GT as 3 separate timelines because Super's continuation doesn't necessarily NEED to pull any concepts from Daima and Daima already kind of feels like its own thing especially with its lore deviations. We'll have to wait and see which option they pick.

As for Super's ending. The Black Freeza thing needs to be resolved I think. Sure you can look at that ending as like "Here's another example of how Goku and Vegeta will always have new challenges and heights to reach!" but the ending also reads as "Goku brings Space Hitler back to life knowing Freeza grows in strength way faster than himself and Vegeta and makes no attempt to stop his plans for conquest and genocide." It's not a great ending (although I love that one page where Piccolo waves goodbye to the reader) and they've been setting the stage for another Freeza arc since the end of the Super anime so it's just blueballs to not do it. Plus we finally have 5 main Zfighters at equal power levels (Goku/Vegeta/Broly/Piccolo/Gohan) so we could have another ensemble type arc for the first time since the Android Saga. It's just a giant missed opportunity to let it end here. I hope Toyble gets it done the right way.

[SupremeKai25]

The reason why 131 works as an ending is because the Anime treats Mastered UI Goku as the pinnacle of power and finesse. Even Beerus is stunned and on the verge of tearing up when Goku masters UI. Sure, he cannot access it at will, but he seems pretty confident that he'll be able to deal with Freeza if he tries to be a nuisance again.

Please bear in mind Goku being at the peak of his power was never a story beat used for story closure
Just look at "the good ol' days":

Which Super circumvent by having Goku unable to access UI at will. So, while Goku achieved a form that the Anime treats as the ultimate power-up, Goku can't use it on his own. This leaves the story open-ended, as we do not know how Goku's power will evolve from there and if he will ever be able to tap into UI as well.

The very final scene of Super is the narrator literally saying that the Saiyans will always have room to grow as they reenact their old battle from the Saiyan saga, making for an ending that is both nostalgic and fully in line with the true spirit of Dragon Ball, the never-ending quest to improve oneself in both discipline and wisdom.

I understand where your confusion comes from, but consider this: Open endings are a legitimate type of ending, one that I actually love. Episode 131 can be both a definitive ending to the Super series and an open ending to Goku's story. Super began with Goku trying to learn more about the gods and it ends with Goku mastering a technique that Beerus still hasn't tapped into after millions of years, and as you noted, Goku's story does not get a definitive ending because we'll never know what happens with his Ultra Instinct and how his strength will evolve from there.

Hey I liked the Black Star Dragon Ball arc! Lol. I don't think it's super clear that Daima is supposed to be separate from Super. I mean it obviously doesn't fit, the Kibitokai thing is totally different than in Super and unexplainable, and while the other continuity problems could be fixed with writing, it's a good handful of things that don't line up as of now. From what I've read Toriyama doesn't care about continuity and it's thanks to his editors that the Dragon Ball manga was plothole-free. If Toriyama had lived, would we have seen the Tertian Oculus or even some of the Demon World characters show up in Super interacting with the main characters as though the events of Daima happened, like how Jaco showed up in Super? Maybe! I also wonder if perhaps Toriyama worked on the broad strokes of the story for Daima, he died, and then the other people working on the show decided to go with what he came up with untouched rather than try to "correct" his work to make it line up with Super.

Toyble as the main brain of Dragon Ball moving forward got asked "How does Daima fit with everything?" and instead of trying to breakdown how it does his response was basically "Everything is canon!" and Torishima says "There is no canon or correct order of events, Toriyama was a mess" so I don't know. I think either they will throw continuity aside and just cram Daima into Super's timeline and any fans who have gripes about the plotholes will just have to deal with it, or they'll treat Daima/Super/GT as 3 separate timelines because Super's continuation doesn't necessarily NEED to pull any concepts from Daima and Daima already kind of feels like its own thing especially with its lore deviations. We'll have to wait and see which option they pick.

Is Daima supposed to be cleanly separated from Super?

No, I would argue that it is not, or at least that it is left ambiguous. While there are some elements that don't match up with Super, like Goku learning a new form that he never tried to use against Beerus, there's also elements that imply Super's lore/world-building is still valid to Daima in some way.

My memory is fuzzy but I seem to recall the universe being referred to as the "Seventh Universe" when they first entered the Demon Realm, which is Super lore, because it's Super that established 12 universes and the Earth is in the Seventh.

Also, in the Granolah arc, Toyotaro stated that the Namekians come from a different dimension, which can easily be connected to Daima and the Demon Realm.

This is what I love about Modern Dragon Ball. Even if the flowing of events is completely messy and ambiguous, the world-building and lore first established in BoG remains true over 12 years later. Heck, even Super Dragon Ball Heroes does lot of stuff with the 12 universes Toriyama created for Modern Dragon Ball.

My one wish going forward is for the cosmology of Dragon Ball to remain the same as it was in 2013 - 12 universes and the Earth is in the Seventh Universe. I love that world-building and how sprawling the cosmology of Dragon Ball has become, and I wouldn't mind seeing more of the other universes, especially Planet Sadala and the peace-loving Saiyans from there.

EDIT - And while on this topic, I just remembered this scene from Daima



These are literally the Kais who appeared at the Tournament of Power. See what I mean? It's ambiguous. There may be some things in Daima that contradict Super, but we literally have characters from Super who appear in Daima.

As for Super's ending. The Black Freeza thing needs to be resolved I think. Sure you can look at that ending as like "Here's another example of how Goku and Vegeta will always have new challenges and heights to reach!"

The ending of the Granolah arc would work perfectly as an open ending -IF- Broly and Super Hero didn't exist. But Broly established that 1) Freeza wants revenge 2) Freeza is looking for Broly, and Super Hero established that Broly is taking refuge with the gods because Freeza's hunting him.

These movies written by Toriyama turned Freeza into the universe's primary supervillain... again... I hate this, mind you, because I'm tired of the constant nostalgia baiting because people loved DBZ as kids. I'd love new, fresh villains like Moro instead of dusty, old Freeza for the 30th time.

[WittyUsername]

I’ve said many times before that I doubt Toriyama made a conscious effort to contradict the events of Super with Daima, but that the contradictions are pretty much impossible to overlook, which is why it’s best to view it as a separate thing, much like GT.

Would Daima characters and concepts have shown up in future DBS installments if Toriyama were still alive? We’ll probably never know.

Anyway, regarding what I said about DBS potentially ending on a cliffhanger, again, I was primarily referring to the Black Freeza setup from the manga. Episode 131 works well enough as a sort of open ended conclusion, even if the scene with Freeza at the end could easily be seen as a sequel hook, but Black Freeza was clearly something that was meant to be paid off in a future storyline.

[kemuri07]

I’ve said many times before that I doubt Toriyama made a conscious effort to contradict the events of Super with Daima, but that the contradictions are pretty much impossible to overlook, which is why it’s best to view it as a separate thing, much like GT.

Would Daima characters and concepts have shown up in future DBS installments if Toriyama were still alive? We’ll probably never know.

Anyway, regarding what I said about DBS potentially ending on a cliffhanger, again, I was primarily referring to the Black Freeza setup from the manga. Episode 131 works well enough as a sort of open ended conclusion, even if the scene with Freeza at the end could easily be seen as a sequel hook, but Black Freeza was clearly something that was meant to be paid off in a future storyline.

Shit, how long ago was that Black Freeza reveal? three years ago? I did at the time think that it would make for a sort of finality to go back to basics, have Freeza become the monster he used to be, and have Goku and Vegeta take him down in the next arc. But the more I think about it, and the more time passes, I actually do agree that I dont think that reveal was meant to set up a future storyline. It is, quite possibly, meant to be an ending for Freeza: He now shares in the same "thrill of the fight" that both Vegeta and Goku do. It's probably the happiest ending a genocidal war lord can hope to have.

[super michael]

The reason why 131 works as an ending is because the Anime treats Mastered UI Goku as the pinnacle of power and finesse. Even Beerus is stunned and on the verge of tearing up when Goku masters UI. Sure, he cannot access it at will, but he seems pretty confident that he'll be able to deal with Freeza if he tries to be a nuisance again.

Please bear in mind Goku being at the peak of his power was never a story beat used for story closure
Just look at "the good ol' days":

Which Super circumvent by having Goku unable to access UI at will. So, while Goku achieved a form that the Anime treats as the ultimate power-up, Goku can't use it on his own. This leaves the story open-ended, as we do not know how Goku's power will evolve from there and if he will ever be able to tap into UI as well.

The very final scene of Super is the narrator literally saying that the Saiyans will always have room to grow as they reenact their old battle from the Saiyan saga, making for an ending that is both nostalgic and fully in line with the true spirit of Dragon Ball, the never-ending quest to improve oneself in both discipline and wisdom.

I understand where your confusion comes from, but consider this: Open endings are a legitimate type of ending, one that I actually love. Episode 131 can be both a definitive ending to the Super series and an open ending to Goku's story. Super began with Goku trying to learn more about the gods and it ends with Goku mastering a technique that Beerus still hasn't tapped into after millions of years, and as you noted, Goku's story does not get a definitive ending because we'll never know what happens with his Ultra Instinct and how his strength will evolve from there.

Hey I liked the Black Star Dragon Ball arc! Lol. I don't think it's super clear that Daima is supposed to be separate from Super. I mean it obviously doesn't fit, the Kibitokai thing is totally different than in Super and unexplainable, and while the other continuity problems could be fixed with writing, it's a good handful of things that don't line up as of now. From what I've read Toriyama doesn't care about continuity and it's thanks to his editors that the Dragon Ball manga was plothole-free. If Toriyama had lived, would we have seen the Tertian Oculus or even some of the Demon World characters show up in Super interacting with the main characters as though the events of Daima happened, like how Jaco showed up in Super? Maybe! I also wonder if perhaps Toriyama worked on the broad strokes of the story for Daima, he died, and then the other people working on the show decided to go with what he came up with untouched rather than try to "correct" his work to make it line up with Super.

Toyble as the main brain of Dragon Ball moving forward got asked "How does Daima fit with everything?" and instead of trying to breakdown how it does his response was basically "Everything is canon!" and Torishima says "There is no canon or correct order of events, Toriyama was a mess" so I don't know. I think either they will throw continuity aside and just cram Daima into Super's timeline and any fans who have gripes about the plotholes will just have to deal with it, or they'll treat Daima/Super/GT as 3 separate timelines because Super's continuation doesn't necessarily NEED to pull any concepts from Daima and Daima already kind of feels like its own thing especially with its lore deviations. We'll have to wait and see which option they pick.

Is Daima supposed to be cleanly separated from Super?

No, I would argue that it is not, or at least that it is left ambiguous. While there are some elements that don't match up with Super, like Goku learning a new form that he never tried to use against Beerus, there's also elements that imply Super's lore/world-building is still valid to Daima in some way.

My memory is fuzzy but I seem to recall the universe being referred to as the "Seventh Universe" when they first entered the Demon Realm, which is Super lore, because it's Super that established 12 universes and the Earth is in the Seventh.

Also, in the Granolah arc, Toyotaro stated that the Namekians come from a different dimension, which can easily be connected to Daima and the Demon Realm.

This is what I love about Modern Dragon Ball. Even if the flowing of events is completely messy and ambiguous, the world-building and lore first established in BoG remains true over 12 years later. Heck, even Super Dragon Ball Heroes does lot of stuff with the 12 universes Toriyama created for Modern Dragon Ball.

My one wish going forward is for the cosmology of Dragon Ball to remain the same as it was in 2013 - 12 universes and the Earth is in the Seventh Universe. I love that world-building and how sprawling the cosmology of Dragon Ball has become, and I wouldn't mind seeing more of the other universes, especially Planet Sadala and the peace-loving Saiyans from there.

EDIT - And while on this topic, I just remembered this scene from Daima



These are literally the Kais who appeared at the Tournament of Power. See what I mean? It's ambiguous. There may be some things in Daima that contradict Super, but we literally have characters from Super who appear in Daima.

As for Super's ending. The Black Freeza thing needs to be resolved I think. Sure you can look at that ending as like "Here's another example of how Goku and Vegeta will always have new challenges and heights to reach!"

The ending of the Granolah arc would work perfectly as an open ending -IF- Broly and Super Hero didn't exist. But Broly established that 1) Freeza wants revenge 2) Freeza is looking for Broly, and Super Hero established that Broly is taking refuge with the gods because Freeza's hunting him.

These movies written by Toriyama turned Freeza into the universe's primary supervillain... again... I hate this, mind you, because I'm tired of the constant nostalgia baiting because people loved DBZ as kids. I'd love new, fresh villains like Moro instead of dusty, old Freeza for the 30th time.

BoG manga Goku says that SSJ3 was his final transformation, he didn't have any higher transformation than that. In the movie and anime Beerus request to see Goku full power, which Goku goes to SSJ3 form. There is no indication that he has SSJ4.
There is no indication that Vegeta has SSJ3 in DBS.

The Boruto manga sometimes makes reference with Boruto anime filler episode like the Seven Swordmens of the mist, however it doesn't mean those filler are connected. In the filler episode Himawari was training to fight and learning to be a ninja, while that contradicts the manga. It was shown that Himawari doesn't know how to fight.

Just because Daima makes reference of DBS, it doesn't mean Daima and DBS are connected. They can mention Universe 7 and show DBS Kaioshin, it doesn't mean anything.


DBS Super Hero shows that Goku is losing intelligence, he doesn't know the things that he was an expert on. How can Goku regain and evolve beyond UI?

[PowerPhantom245]

Since Evolution is part of multiverse, you might as well include Taiwan and Korean movies as well.

Heck, add Light of Hope as well.

I would like to see live action multiverse crossover movie, since there's plenty of live action Goku's out there... even though whether or not they want to participate is a can of worms.

[Jord]

Since Evolution is part of multiverse, you might as well include Taiwan and Korean movies as well.

Heck, add Light of Hope as well.

I would like to see live action multiverse crossover movie, since there's plenty of live action Goku's out there... even though whether or not they want to participate is a can of worms.

Time to give the guys that made the Saiyan Saga live action trailer a call!

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Since Evolution is part of multiverse, you might as well include Taiwan and Korean movies as well.

Heck, add Light of Hope as well.

I would like to see live action multiverse crossover movie, since there's plenty of live action Goku's out there... even though whether or not they want to participate is a can of worms.

Time to give the guys that made the Saiyan Saga live action trailer a call!

K&K Productions?

[Tian]

Since Evolution is part of multiverse, you might as well include Taiwan and Korean movies as well.

Heck, add Light of Hope as well.

I would like to see live action multiverse crossover movie, since there's plenty of live action Goku's out there... even though whether or not they want to participate is a can of worms.

Don't forget about Mega 64's 5 minutes of Z sagas, also known as low budget Dragon Ball.