Unpopular DB opinions

[PhantomSaiyan]

Goku doesn't seem to be dead, seeing that he appears in the tournament which Goku Jr and Vegeta Jr fights. Goku even appears in the GT movie. It is possible that Goku is still on his own adventure, just like how Goku was training, meeting other beings and learning from others.
Goku did learn the fusion dance and gained SSJ2 and SSJ3 while in otherworld before the Buu Saga.

First of all, that's not the impression I got. He fucked off with Shenron as a sacrifice. He can't exactly train with Shenron. Sure he could have a new adventure or whatever. Even more of a fucking bummer that he left everyone in the main cast behind with NO chance of ever seeing them again.

In the past people had the idea that if GT was canon and Toriyama was invovled, then GT would have been better.

Do you mean that it would have been better if he actually worked on it? Or that people would like it more if they said Toriyama was involved (but no changes to the actual final product)

If it's the first one, then sure, maybe. Maybe not. Imo it's more likely than not, but products with Toriyama involved can suck (RoF) and products with no Toriyama can be awesome (a lot of Z Movies) so even that's not certain

Piccolo now protects Hell from villains that tries to cause trouble.

Another thing to hate about GT. Piccolo died like an idiot needlessly, and GT writers messed up how Hell works in Dragon Ball. Awesome, more nonsenssical pointless sap from GT.

[super michael]

First of all, that's not the impression I got. He fucked off with Shenron as a sacrifice. He can't exactly train with Shenron. Sure he could have a new adventure or whatever. Even more of a fucking bummer that he left everyone in the main cast behind with NO chance of ever seeing them again.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/komJzABgStQ
Maybe that was Pan seeing things and Goku wasn't there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS66AkcqkJ8
Goku Jr meets Goku and explains how the Dragon Ball works.

Goku doesn't seem dead. It does seem weird that Goku avoided everyone, until he met Goku Jr.

Do you mean that it would have been better if he actually worked on it? Or that people would like it more if they said Toriyama was involved (but no changes to the actual final product)

If it's the first one, then sure, maybe. Maybe not. Imo it's more likely than not, but products with Toriyama involved can suck (RoF) and products with no Toriyama can be awesome (a lot of Z Movies) so even that's not certain

I think the first one, remember this is way before BoG was even an idea.

Another thing to hate about GT. Piccolo died like an idiot needlessly, and GT writers messed up how Hell works in Dragon Ball. Awesome, more nonsenssical pointless sap from GT.

We can't blame GT for how Hell works, this all started in DBZ. In DBZ the villains were causing trouble, we saw this happen with Cell, Freeza and the Ginyu Force causing trouble. In the Namek Saga the Ginyu Force were on Kaio planet, until the Z fighters defeated them.

Piccolo chose to die, so the Black Star Dragon Balls would become inactive again. Could Piccolo have gathered the Dragon Balls and destroyed Shenron? Maybe, but it is unknown if there are consequences to that idea.

[JulieYBM]

Piccolo should have had a more pathetic death.

All of them should have, really.

The production seemed like it was in a weird place at the time, given how few veterans were working on Dragon Ball GT for the Super 17 arc. It's a shame they didn't have more time to flesh the story out and schedule staff for the animation, because there's so much fertile ground for fun character arcs with the idea of every previous enemy returning from Hell.

[jjgp1112]

We can't blame GT for how Hell works, this all started in DBZ. In DBZ the villains were causing trouble, we saw this happen with Cell, Freeza and the Ginyu Force causing trouble. In the Namek Saga the Ginyu Force were on Kaio planet, until the Z fighters defeated them.

Piccolo chose to die, so the Black Star Dragon Balls would become inactive again. Could Piccolo have gathered the Dragon Balls and destroyed Shenron? Maybe, but it is unknown if there are consequences to that idea.
[/quote]
All that stuff was anime filler though, so the blame ultimately lies on Toei and even still, the hell in GT is vastly different from the one they wrote their damn selves in Z and even worse, they came up with nonsensical conflict that forced Piccolo to get himself sent to hell to handle things when they previously had no problem sending Goku and Pikkon to go down there for something much less significant.

[ABED]

It bums me out more that Goku leaves to train with Uub and makes it sound like he'll be gone for an undisclosed amount of time, which could be years. He can teleport so why the sense of urgency? That bothers me more than his fate in GT because there he goes away for a noble and and physically can't return. Goku at the end of Z leaves and could return anytime he wants but actively chooses not to.

Awesome, more nonsenssical pointless sap from GT.

What is pointless sap?

The mechanics of why are goofy but I like the idea of Piccolo spending his afterlife making sure the bad guys in Hell don't cause problems. It feels like a suiting fate for Piccolo.

[JulieYBM]

That face when you're both the former great demon king and god of earth and now you're literally in charge of keeping everyone in Hell from rebelling again.

[MCDaveG]

Piccolo should have had a more pathetic death.

All of them should have, really.

The production seemed like it was in a weird place at the time, given how few veterans were working on Dragon Ball GT for the Super 17 arc. It's a shame they didn't have more time to flesh the story out and schedule staff for the animation, because there's so much fertile ground for fun character arcs with the idea of every previous enemy returning from Hell.

That arc is even weirder, when we realize that it is basically done for clunky foreshadow of the Evil Shenrons.
I will never forgive them for the fate of Android 17... his arc in Super seems like a fanservice retcon, having ton of kids, happy life, guarding animals. If GT did fit the continuity and happened afterwards, that would sting me a lot more

[super michael]

All that stuff was anime filler though, so the blame ultimately lies on Toei and even still, the hell in GT is vastly different from the one they wrote their damn selves in Z and even worse, they came up with nonsensical conflict that forced Piccolo to get himself sent to hell to handle things when they previously had no problem sending Goku and Pikkon to go down there for something much less significant.

I am aware that Hell was filler, in the manga they never showed Hell. I guess GT did change how Hell looks like compared to DBZ.

In the Saiyan Saga there was a path to exit and enter Hell, Goku used that path when he fell of Snake Way and beat the Ogre in a race. Lord Enma didn't even need to get involved or use any magic power.

[Koitsukai]

There's something really off about GT Hell.

TOEI introduced hell for the first time with the Namek filler, with the bloody pond. Then, we saw Paikuhan vs Cell. Later on, Toriyama established the official lore with Piccolo telling Geets he was losing his body and his soul was being reincarnated as somebody else.
But by the end of Z, TOEI went ahead and had everybody cheer for Buu except for Babibi, which contradicts Toriyama but is in line with their own interpretation of hell... still harmless and kinda funny.

But in GT, even TOEI's hell goes out the window. It's now grimmer, darker, it no longer looks like an open-air prison. Now it's like a dark jungle where villains come out of the shadows unexpectedly. Like the Nublar island after the dinosaurs took over the island. But not only they can keep their bodies, they can create new people too.
And Enma is now a bureaucratic asshole like never before. He has sent several times Goku and Paikuhan to deal with threats in hell, but now he refuses to allow Piccolo to aid Goku in hell? it wasn't even a favor to Piccolo, it was a favor to Goku... and to the entire afterlife world that was being affected by the issue.

I'd preferred if Piccolo chose to stay in hell (I know he kinda does when Goku is saying fairwell to everybody in E64), instead of being vanished for destroying a couple of trees. His personality is more in line with doing something useful in hell than picking up berries in heaven, but the execution... sigh.

[PhantomSaiyan]

It bums me out more that Goku leaves to train with Uub and makes it sound like he'll be gone for an undisclosed amount of time, which could be years. He can teleport so why the sense of urgency? That bothers me more than his fate in GT because there he goes away for a noble and and physically can't return. Goku at the end of Z leaves and could return anytime he wants but actively chooses not to.

I get this can be subjective, but how could that ever be more of a bummer? How? He can return to his family anytime and will 100% do so. Toriyama even drew Goku and Uub at Goku's house with his entire family. Yeah it's not 100% canon, but Toriyama still made it, so it shows that the idea of him regularly seeing his family and not just disappearing is there.

Now idk about you, but dying and disappearing forever to god knows where, is like, almost objectively more of a bummer than just going away for a bit lol

What is pointless sap?

The mechanics of why are goofy but I like the idea of Piccolo spending his afterlife making sure the bad guys in Hell don't cause problems. It feels like a suiting fate for Piccolo.

I think that's a terrible fate, and it does not make me feel good to think that Piccolo has the godawful task of living in hell and dealing with bad guys. Yet another bummer.

And as other people are already saying, the mechanics of GT hell are the nail in the coffin for this baffling decision.

[JulieYBM]

Hell changed. Things change. Places change. People change. Dragon Ball GT breaks the rules of Dragon Ball up to thet point and does so by grounding some of these broken rules in basic storytelling, like the death of characters and the impossibility of overcoming certain things in life. If anything, I don't think that Dragon Ball GT went far enough. I would not be shocked at all if we learned that some executive somewhere prevented Kasai and gang from just getting rid of the Dragon Balls all together at the end of the series. I think that would have made for a better ending.

[super michael]

Technically the Saiyan Saga showed us what Hell looks like in DBZ.
https://youtu.be/Egil9vVzNK4?si=n3F28aOFJ-Vpy5XH
Goku race

https://youtube.com/shorts/aSWblEd_8CE? ... VH6yMhS0G8
Goku use the exit to leave.

What is crazy is that Dabura is in Heaven, while Piccolo is in Hell for good. There is nothing that can change that.

[Grimlock]

Oh that's right. Dabura was sent to heaven because hell was very similar to the Demon Realm, but after Dragon Ball Daima, the Demon Realm didn't look that bad, to me at least.

So... Why was Dabura sent to heaven?

[Yellow Flower King]

Oh that's right. Dabura was sent to heaven because hell was very similar to the Demon Realm, but after Dragon Ball Daima, the Demon Realm didn't look that bad, to me at least.

So... Why was Dabura sent to heaven?

Daima is meant to be pure, undestilled Toriyama...ugh...Canon. Whatever came before is not...Ugh again... Canon.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Oh that's right. Dabura was sent to heaven because hell was very similar to the Demon Realm, but after Dragon Ball Daima, the Demon Realm didn't look that bad, to me at least.

So... Why was Dabura sent to heaven?

It's all Toei filler, don't try to find too much logic in it lol Hell was never depicted in the manga

Hell changed. Things change. Places change. People change

Yeah. Change is the only constant in life. However, when things change, when places change, when people change, it's because of a logical and coherent succession of events that brings us from one point, to the next step of that subject's evolution, not because writers made up stuff, then forgot about it, or willingly chose to ignore what they established, life isn't like that.

Dragon Ball GT breaks the rules of Dragon Ball up to thet point and does so by grounding some of these broken rules in basic storytelling, like the death of characters and the impossibility of overcoming certain things in life.

Whenever I get the itch for this type of storytelling you're describing, I can think of hundreds of franchises not named Dragon Ball. Why woul

I don't think that Dragon Ball GT went far enough

Earlier in the thread you also said you wanted characters to suffer even worse fates in GT or something along those lines (sorry I can't find the exact quote right now, I tried looking but there's a lot of posts here) why so much sadism for DB characters I get that new things in the franchise are a breath of fresh air (when done well imo) but if it loses too much of it's identity, then I have no reason to watch it over the thousand other anime or media in general that already do those tropes way better.
If I'm gonna watch Dragon Ball, I want to at least see a Dragon Ball esque type of storytelling

[Koitsukai]

Oh that's right. Dabura was sent to heaven because hell was very similar to the Demon Realm, but after Dragon Ball Daima, the Demon Realm didn't look that bad, to me at least.

Wait, how do you know how the "original" Daimakai looked like? I'm asking because I was under the impression Gohan and Dabura fought there, but it turned out that was never stated. I'm not sure where I got that from, maybe a Mandela-ish effect, that's why I'm asking where did you get that idea from.

[JulieYBM]

Hell changed. Things change. Places change. People change

Yeah. Change is the only constant in life. However, when things change, when places change, when people change, it's because of a logical and coherent succession of events that brings us from one point, to the next step of that subject's evolution, not because writers made up stuff, then forgot about it, or willingly chose to ignore what they established, life isn't like that.

And sometimes, we aren't there to see that change happen. It just is. Would I maybe include something to note said change if I were writing? Probably? Maybe? I don't know, I also haven't watched Dragon Ball GT in over a decade.

Dragon Ball GT breaks the rules of Dragon Ball up to thet point and does so by grounding some of these broken rules in basic storytelling, like the death of characters and the impossibility of overcoming certain things in life.

Whenever I get the itch for this type of storytelling you're describing, I can think of hundreds of franchises not named Dragon Ball. Why woul

Because it's good and useful. Dragon Ball GT was part of a 508 episode run of television with multiple lead creatives working on said project over a decade of time in a changing world and changing industry. There just isn't anything surprising about change or ignoring older episodes nobody had watched in half a decade-plus. It's good, actually, to give your audience new and different things, especially if you're reminding them of parts of life that they're trying to escape.

I don't think that Dragon Ball GT went far enough

Earlier in the thread you also said you wanted characters to suffer even worse fates in GT or something along those lines (sorry I can't find the exact quote right now, I tried looking but there's a lot of posts here) why so much sadism for DB characters I get that new things in the franchise are a breath of fresh air (when done well imo) but if it loses too much of it's identity, then I have no reason to watch it over the thousand other anime or media in general that already do those tropes way better.
If I'm gonna watch Dragon Ball, I want to at least see a Dragon Ball esque type of storytelling

My entire existence is an insult to our society, so you'll forgive me if I'm just not affected by shaking up the status quo in general, let alone in what is just a silly cartoon from 1996-1997. It's not a big issue to look back and go, "Yeah, they should have leaned on the gas a little more here." Kill off the human characters and keep them dead! Get that core cast of characters down to only the new ones. People die and things change, audiences should know this and the arts shouldn't be used as a vehicle to escape reality, it's a place to acknowledge it and reflect on how to change it.

For all of Toriyama talking about silliness like 'poison' his brand and its spin-offs sure do wind up conforming to expectations a lot.

Also...what does it even matter? You can create a million different stories—Dragon Ball or not—all unconnected from one another, so why not do something a bit more bittersweet for Dragon Ball GT's ending? It's not like any future project was obligated to follow up on it.

[super michael]

It's all Toei filler, don't try to find too much logic in it lol Hell was never depicted in the manga

We never got to see Heaven or Hell in the manga of Dragon Ball, however in the manga it was stated that Dabura got sent to Heaven.
These are the times we have saw Heaven and Hell:

- Saiyan Saga (Filler)
- Namek Saga (Filler)
- Otherworld Saga (Filler)
- Buu Saga (Filler)
- GT (Filler)
- DBS (Filler)
- Daima

[PhantomSaiyan]

My entire existence is an insult to our society, so you'll forgive me if I'm just not affected by shaking up the status quo in general, let alone in what is just a silly cartoon from 1996-1997. It's not a big issue to look back and go, "Yeah, they should have leaned on the gas a little more here." Kill off the human characters and keep them dead! Get that core cast of characters down to only the new ones. People die and things change, audiences should know this and the arts shouldn't be used as a vehicle to escape reality, it's a place to acknowledge it and reflect on how to change it.

For all of Toriyama talking about silliness like 'poison' his brand and its spin-offs sure do wind up conforming to expectations a lot.

Also...what does it even matter? You can create a million different stories—Dragon Ball or not—all unconnected from one another, so why not do something a bit more bittersweet for Dragon Ball GT's ending? It's not like any future project was obligated to follow up on it.

Fair enough. I hope society develops towards a more accepting direction. But yeah considering your pov, I understand your view of things better now and why you feel the way you do.

I have a different relationship with media and escapism.
In my opinion, both media that are true to life, and escapist media have their own merits. I absolutely use some media as an escape from real life. It's my way of coping. I also indulge in plenty of media that makes me reflect on life whenever I'm "ready" and I feel like I'm in the right mood for it.

They are two different categories that occupy different spaces in my brain.
Dragon Ball of course belongs to the escapist category, so as far as my own experience and relationship with it go, making Dragon Ball the type of media that makes you suddenly reflect deeply about life clashes with the reasons I go to Dragon Ball for: to have fun.

That's it's use. Trying to turn it into something different for me would be comparable to using a fork to eat soup, it's just not the right tool. But I respect your pov

And perhaps if there was a really well executed piece of Dragon Ball media that strays very far from Toriyama esque writing, I might end up liking it, who knows

We never got to see Heaven or Hell in the manga of Dragon Ball, however in the manga it was stated that Dabura got sent to Heaven.
These are the times we have saw Heaven and Hell:

My bad, I completely forgot

[Grimlock]

Daima is meant to be pure, undestilled Toriyama...ugh...Canon. Whatever came before is not...Ugh again... Canon.

Really? Too bad for the manga then, it's not canonical anymore.

It's all Toei filler, don't try to find too much logic in it lol Hell was never depicted in the manga

There's nothing filler here. Enma-Daioh says to Goku he sent Dabura to heaven in the manga. And by saying that Demon Realm looks like hell, it's already giving us some description of hell.

I would post the exact panel of this statement like I always do, but I'm on cellphone right now, so I can only suggest you read the manga.

Wait, how do you know how the "original" Daimakai looked like? I'm asking because I was under the impression Gohan and Dabura fought there, but it turned out that was never stated. I'm not sure where I got that from, maybe a Mandela-ish effect, that's why I'm asking where did you get that idea from.

I don't think hell is supposed to be a nice or ordinary place, like the Demon Realm turned out to be. So if they are similar like Enma-Daioh said, I can't see many reasons to send Dabura to heaven.

Unless we apply Freeza's case to everyone else. Make hell be personal, separated confinement but with hell itself being an ordinary place. This would still make Dabura in heaven pointless, though.