A rebuttal to the defense of the Zamasu arc ending

[super michael]

- The interactions between Future Trunks and his past self and Gohan;

- The interactions and philosophical debates between Zamasu and Gowasu;

- The plot twists involving time travel and time paradox;

- The interactions between the main protagonists and the Future Earth survivors;

- All the strategic retreats and back and forths.

- All the funny conversations between Black and Zamasu, etc. etc.

Those are all good points about Goku Black Saga. Although they could have toned it down with Goku being dumb.

[GokuHater]

May I actually address this points?

- The interactions between Future Trunks and his past self and Gohan;

This is true. Trunks and Gohan met.

What did it accomplish? Were any lessons learned?
Did we have any meaningful interactions? Conversations about Zamasu and the future. Remembering the Cell Saga? Speaking about how one's and the other's life look like? Maybe a conversation in which Trunks tells Gohan he expected something else and Gohan telling him that such a life suits him and the goal is to be happy.
Anything?

Not at all. We are given a scene in which they eat ice cream and Trunks meets Pan. We are led to believe Trunks learns what "living happily" looks like but it goes nowhere with this arc (spoiler warning, because he literally loses everything).
Their interaction takes literally one episode.

The interactions and philosophical debates between Zamasu and Gowasu;

They do talk, agreed, but I wouldn't call their conservations very "deeply philosophical"
- We are gods and we should watch over humans, not judge them.
- But mortals are bleh! Why we should not do anything about it!?!
-You have much to learn...

I mean it's okay for a kids show, but nothing really that deep. I would consider much stuff that came before, Piccolo's transformation, Vegeta's character, Baby's reasons to do the things he does a bit deeper than that and still they're not really that awesome.

The plot twists involving time travel and time paradox;

Why should we take the existence of time travel as a pron in itself? Like this is some kind of sophisticated story telling?
Off course it may be, with enough good writing; writing that Zamasu Arc severely lacks. The existence of plot holes proves that, and while it sounds cool on paper, it wasn't really excecuted that flawlessly.

The interactions between the main protagonists and the Future Earth survivors;

Like I said, Vegeta giving them food and actually caring is quite nice. Other than that, I don't see anything really deep about this.
Is there something really cool or spiritual that I missed?

All the strategic retreats and back and forths.

You are giving this as a plus, while I really don't see it as one. All the back and forth on the anime only make Zamasu look like a villain you can easily escape, whenever you feel and he's not gonna threaten you in the meantime.
I always prefered manga version because of this.
There they lose, run away, gear up, return.
In the anime it feels like they run away all the time and come back only when they feel like it.
Out world (and thus our heroes) are never threatened, maybe only with the" Zamasu Cosmos" cameo at the end of the arc, which just doesn't hold up.

All the funny conversations between Black and Zamasu, etc. etc.

To each their own of course but I really really didn't it find it enjoyable. Every time Zamas opened his mouth, it reminded me of a whiny teenager, who just wants everything his way.
I mean the guy is a freaking psychopath and uses his god complex to justify the means.
This is really irritating and if that was the goal, then kudos, the writers achieved this.
Not once in DB we have such an irritating villain.
Of course most of them, Piccolo, Frieza, Cell are whiny when things don't go their way, but only Zamas managed to get to this level of "real annoyance". Is this a good villain, or just a brat depends on the fan.

itself quite well to a serialized form.

And this would be the case If Zamasu was a well written,exciting villain from the first place.
His supposed "turn to the dark side" doesn't have any weight and doesn't have much logical explanation.
It works only if he's a psychopath to begin with (but then is there any character arc for him?)

I agree they could have played on his mistery a bit but this still isn't the case. We can tell Black is Zamasu in a few episodes so there's no real thrill, excitement, or a mystery.
This is the point.

They could have done a LOT BETTER with this, as Zamasu Arc has a few great ideas but playing it completely straight as a deep and complex story doesn't hold up for me.

Off course in no way I am saying you can't enjoy it and have other opinion on it, just objectively it isn't that awesome

[SupremeKai25]

What did it accomplish? Were any lessons learned?

What did Goku and Goten accomplish by hugging at the tournament? What lesson they learned?

You don't need every scene to tell you a lesson. Trunks and Gohan caught up because it made for a touching scene and Trunks saw what kind of future his own Gohan could have had.

Conversations about Zamasu and the future. Remembering the Cell Saga? Speaking about how one's and the other's life look like? Maybe a conversation in which Trunks tells Gohan he expected something else and Gohan telling him that such a life suits him and the goal is to be happy.
Anything?

Super literally showed all those things. They show Gohan's reaction to learning about what happened in Trunks' future, they show Trunks' surprise that Gohan went from a fearsome warrior into a seemingly nice nerd, Trunks implicitly realizing that this is what Gohan always wanted and crying that they could've had this future if the Androids and Zamasu never showed up.

Okay fine Trunks doesn't learn any "new lesson", but so what? You can't have cute scenes? Does every scene need to be functional to a character development? That's a very sad way to look at a story.

We are gods and we should watch over humans, not judge them.
- But mortals are bleh! Why we should not do anything about it!?!
-You have much to learn...

So answer the question then. If the gods are so powerful (Supreme Kai could wipe out Frieza), why don't they act? Why do they just let evil-doers like Frieza do whatever they please, because their precious laws bind them to inaction?

Why should we take the existence of time travel as a pron in itself? Like this is some kind of sophisticated story telling?
Off course it may be, with enough good writing; writing that Zamasu Arc severely lacks. The existence of plot holes proves that, and while it sounds cool on paper, it wasn't really excecuted that flawlessly.

It's not about quality it's about what it simply is. A convoluted time paradox that took an entire episode of flashbacks to explain, and people still didn't get it so Toei had to make a chart on the official website.

DBZ movie plots are usually much, much simpler.

Like I said, Vegeta giving them food and actually caring is quite nice. Other than that, I don't see anything really deep about this.
Is there something really cool or spiritual that I missed?

You didn't just say "deep", you also said "well-developed", and yeah, I see that as a good development for Vegeta. Considering how this guy entered the story as a genocidal maniac trying to destroy the Earth, I find it good development that he eventually came to care for the people of the Earth and, after interacting with those survivors, declares that he's fighting to give the Earth a future, rather than for personal glory or pride (Zamasu even noting how "Unsayan" of him it is to say that).

You are giving this as a plus, while I really don't see it as one. All the back and forth on the anime only make Zamasu look like a villain you can easily escape, whenever you feel and he's not gonna threaten you in the meantime.
I always prefered manga version because of this.
There they lose, run away, gear up, return.
In the anime it feels like they run away all the time and come back only when they feel like it.
Out world (and thus our heroes) are never threatened, maybe only with the" Zamasu Cosmos" cameo at the end of the arc, which just doesn't hold up.

In the Manga Goku never fights Black, the man who stole his body, killed his family, and ruined his legacy. So that's a big No from me.

Anyway, it's not about quality, it's about what it simply is. The arc features multiple retreats and comebacks. Too many too fit into a movie. I mean, maybe if it was a trilogy? Sure. But one movie? No, there's too much content, too many back-and-forths.

To each their own of course but I really really didn't it find it enjoyable. Every time Zamas opened his mouth, it reminded me of a whiny teenager, who just wants everything his way.
I mean the guy is a freaking psychopath and uses his god complex to justify the means.
This is really irritating and if that was the goal, then kudos, the writers achieved this.
Not once in DB we have such an irritating villain.
Of course most of them, Piccolo, Frieza, Cell are whiny when things don't go their way, but only Zamas managed to get to this level of "real annoyance". Is this a good villain, or just a brat depends on the fan.

Nah I was more referring to how Black and Zamasu had multiple scenes of just chilling in a cabin in the woods drinking tea. Those scenes help humanize a villain in a way. That is why I also liked those scenes of Cell interacting with the reporters or Buu eating candies. It's actually good writing to not show your villain as just some faceless monster, but also as his own individual with hobbies.

And yeah, the point of Zamasu character was to be irritating, that's why he monologues so much. He even monologues in all the videogames, it's a meme. A movie about this arc would cut Zamasu's monologues, that's another No from me.

And this would be the case If Zamasu was a well written,exciting villain from the first place.
His supposed "turn to the dark side" doesn't have any weight and doesn't have much logical explanation.
It works only if he's a psychopath to begin with (but then is there any character arc for him?)

There is a character arc for him. He initially distrusts mortals, then he hates mortals after a mortal (Goku) beats him, then he learns that Goku used Divine power so he should steal his body, and after he's taken Goku's body, he progressively becomes more and more unhinged as the Saiyan battle nature influences him, ultimately culminating in his transformation into a horrid, half-mortal monster, ironically becoming what he hated the most.

Will a movie keep all of this? If not, then I'm not interested. And considering how generic and boring DBZ movie villains are, I'm leaning more towards "No".

I agree they could have played on his mistery a bit but this still isn't the case. We can tell Black is Zamasu in a few episodes so there's no real thrill, excitement, or a mystery.
This is the point.

The mystery was real, people were speculating for months about who Zamasu was and his connection to Black. It's true you can just dig up the old videos or threads from 2016. Ty for raising another point against the movie: No mystery = No speculations = No fun.

Off course in no way I am saying you can't enjoy it and have other opinion on it, just objectively it isn't that awesome

Well I think that "objectively" it's an awesome arc and much better and easier to understand than that terrible Cell saga with constant asspulls and a villain who never died for inexplicable reasons. (at least Zamasu was immortal)

[GokuHater]

What did Goku and Goten accomplish by hugging at the tournament? What lesson they learned?

Probably not much, considering this scene wasn't in the manga
In the manga both Goten and Trunks had reservations about Goku and what is he really about. Which also served the story and their viewing of Goku later.
Toryiama wasn't a perfect writer but he rarely left any "empty spaces" in his panels, something which can prove a point later.

You don't need every scene to tell you a lesson. Trunks and Gohan caught up because it made for a touching scene and Trunks saw what kind of future his own Gohan could have had.

Yeah but where did it go... ? Trunks was thinking about a happy, perfect life for a moment, which may have fueled his desire to win, tough he wanted to win from the start. And considering how the arc ended, all of the setup of him having a peacefull life was for nothing really.
You heard about Chekov's gun.
If introducing an idea, let it fuel the hero's journey. At the end we either can reach that goal, lose taht goal, or find something greater than that goal.
Zamasu arc ending gave us... Well, a clusterfuck really To many ideas, how to resolve the conflict, one crashing with another.

If we really want to show how Zamasu won, let's turn this into a tragedy. Eg. Trunks failes. He dies. Sad but would make his character be that much more epic (and a new one for Dragon Ball). Don't have it as an existential nightmare where we practically lost but everyone is happy and their are puppies and rainbows.

Okay fine Trunks doesn't learn any "new lesson", but so what? You can't have cute scenes? Does every scene need to be functional to a character development? That's a very sad way to look at a story.

No. That's not a "sad way" to look at a story, it's a completly justifiable way to look at a story
If telling a story, a scene must work in doing something. Progressing the plot. Progressing the characters. Showing us exposition. Action. Can't we have cutscenes? And what are cutscenes about if not about progressing the story or characters. Yes, every scene needs to have a purpose.
This is my critic not only of Zamasu arc but of many arcs in Super - ToP, BoG (anime), RoF (anime) etc. That things there are thrown with no real plan, sometimes for nostalgia, sometomes to look cool, sometimes to be unnecesarily funny.
Even original Dragon Ball Z sometimes falls to this.

So answer the question then. If the gods are so powerful (Supreme Kai could wipe out Frieza), why don't they act? Why do they just let evil-doers like Frieza do whatever they please, because their precious laws bind them to inaction?

Why should they act?
It is well established in the lore and in this very arc, gods do not mess into mortals ways. Yeah, it's tough someone like Frieza runs around and hurts people but that's just the way this world works. Gods do not take sides, or do not take actions. Only the Destroyer Gods are meant to kill and destroy and this is still more of an equilibrum thing than of spite or morality.
The Zamasu arc itself wants to show how can it end, when a kaioshin is sure of his own rights and takes actions.

This one part is actually quite wise for something as Dragon Ball. In real life sometimes you just need to accept other's decisions, even if you think they are wrong, or accept the way something in life is, not force it your way just beacuse you think it;'s right

It's not about quality it's about what it simply is. A convoluted time paradox that took an entire episode of flashbacks to explain, and people still didn't get it so Toei had to make a chart on the official website.

What do you mean it's not about the quality? Everything here is about quality. Dragon Ball Super is a show that's meant to be enjoyable, so people won't like something that is not... Well, that good.
You like the Zamasu arc beacuse for you the quality is high, or at least you saw something in it, that sticks with you.
Others won't like something just beacuse it has time travel stuff... Or beacuse it's about GODS... Or beacuse it has a specific character (well, actually in DB fandom, many will like it for that very reason but this doesn't good story make )

You didn't just say "deep", you also said "well-developed", and yeah, I see that as a good development for Vegeta. Considering how this guy entered the story as a genocidal maniac trying to destroy the Earth, I find it good development that he eventually came to care for the people of the Earth and, after interacting with those survivors, declares that he's fighting to give the Earth a future, rather than for personal glory or pride (Zamasu even noting how "Unsayan" of him it is to say that).

Yup.
I think we can agree 100% on that one

In the Manga Goku never fights Black, the man who stole his body, killed his family, and ruined his legacy. So that's a big No from me.

Well, it should be planned for the beginning who's story it mainly is then.
Is it Trunks'? Than let him do his thing and be the hero who wants to take back his world.
Is it Goku? Than let Goku break loose and have a satisfactory resolution.

I think manga tried to do more with Trunks than any others, while keeping his power consistent, while the anime wasn't sure on who the main hero is. I do agree Goku hearing what Zamas did to his family should break down in anger. And it starts that way (great scene by the way) but is quickly cut short just for the sake of a 'plot-twist'. That was very weak.
Imagine if on Namek Goku went SSJ and started beating Frieza up just to have him explode 5 minutes later (pun intended).

Anyway, it's not about quality, it's about what it simply is. The arc features multiple retreats and comebacks. Too many too fit into a movie. I mean, maybe if it was a trilogy? Sure. But one movie? No, there's too much content, too many back-and-forths.

Again, with the quality reason.
No.
A story needs to have somethig, not have simply anything for the sake of having it.
What kind of reasoning would it be?
"- I despise the Cell arc, we don't focus that much on character development and have the villains changing all the time.
- Ah well, but that's how the story is, it's not about quality"

And I agree. Too many back and forths don't fit into a movie but for me they also do not fit into such a short saga.
They are lazy way outs and a bit anticlimactic, as I said in previous post.

A movie about this arc would cut Zamasu's monologues, that's another No from me.

True.
I didn't mean it should be cut. That's what they were going for. Even Vegetto has calls him out on his bullshit.
I just mean this doesn't present me with a very rounded and deep villain, just a whiny teen

[dbs fanboy]

Ah the Goku Black arc ending.

It could have been good, if something else was done with Trunks or if the tone of the show took it more seriously.

I honestly didn't mind it at first because I was hoping something was done with FT Trunks eventually, you know to show the consequences of what happened.

But.....nothing was done ....so the ending just sucked.

That being said, I am glad more creative people tried something with it.

Super Dragon Ball Heroes as flawed and stupid it is did something interesting by having Future Trunks trapped in a prison planets after the events, too bad they dropped that plot line.

Sparking Zero had the best idea with the What ifs scenarios, Trunks actually stays with the team and joins the ToP dealing with a lot of his issues/trauma and redeeming himself, THAT'S WHAT I WANTED TO SEE SUPER. So I guess that leaves me somewhat satisfied.

Man if there's something frustrated about Modern Dragon Ball is that, unlike when Z ended, it actually had now a lot of material to create actually interesting and fun stories, but then it does absolutely nothing it with it!

But dragon ball fanfics are now better than ever!

[Jord]

Sparking Zero had the best idea with the What ifs scenarios, Trunks actually stays with the team and joins the ToP dealing with a lot of his issues/trauma and redeeming himself, THAT'S WHAT I WANTED TO SEE SUPER. So I guess that leaves me somewhat satisfied.

That is seriously a great idea. One of my gripes with the ToP is the roster we got in U7. Trunks being in it would have spiced things up a lot.

[GurixDr34]

I would have preferred Future Trunks or Vegeta to have defeated Zamasu

[super michael]

I would have preferred Future Trunks or Vegeta to have defeated Zamasu

It is too bad Future Trunks couldn't seal Zamasu, due to Goku ignoring Master Roshi to wait for the seal. No one thought of asking Kaioshin to go to the past to get the urn, rice cooker or bottle and talisman.

Future Trunks should have sealed Zamasu, while Vegeta kills Goku Black.