Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[miguelnuva1]

Dragonball's lore is retconned so much in the modern era I just go with Goku and Vegeta's bodies retained some memory of Vegito's power.

Just enough for then to get tonaroubd Ultimate Gohan's level and than truly surpass it in Daima.

Also explains all their power ups in Super and BOG with absorbing SSG's power.

[LightBing]

Vegeta assumed his plan was to bring Gohan to beat Pure Buu at one point didn't he? So yeah, in the actual story itself Gohan was stronger.

Yup Gohan and Gotenks.

[nineko]

I might as well ask here since it's just a quick question, I'm 99% sure I'm right but it never hurts to get a confirmation: Tenshinhan is the last human who managed to defeat Goku in a legitimate fight, right? Or is "Tenshinan is a triclops" still a thing?

[Kaboom]

Yep, the old guidebook tidbit which first coined the trivia about Tenshinhan's distant alien ancestry still categorized him as an Earthling anyway. And of course the story itself never treats or labels him as anything but an Earthling who happens to have a third eye. So for all intents and purposes he "counts" as an Earthling and was indeed the last one to (technically) beat Goku in a straight 1v1 fight.

[nineko]

Thanks a lot for the quick and comprehensive answer, I really appreciate that!

Also, yes, I wrote human but I actually meant earthling, so thanks also for figuring out what I meant even if I've been inaccurate.

[Yuji]

I might as well ask here since it's just a quick question, I'm 99% sure I'm right but it never hurts to get a confirmation: Tenshinhan is the last human who managed to defeat Goku in a legitimate fight, right? Or is "Tenshinan is a triclops" still a thing?

Kuririn beats Goku at the end of GT

[Koitsukai]

Had Piccolo been given time to charge his Makankosappo vs Nappa, would it have done anything?

I know there's a panel where he shoots a similar attack with both hands but it was in a hurry, not charged like vs Raditz, so I wouldn't pay much attention to it, even if it was with both hands.

[DanielSSJ]

Had Piccolo been given time to charge his Makankosappo vs Nappa, would it have done anything?

I know there's a panel where he shoots a similar attack with both hands but it was in a hurry, not charged like vs Raditz, so I wouldn't pay much attention to it, even if it was with both hands.

Depends on what you think of the databook numbers. The gap between 3500 and 4000 is pretty small, so a full strength Makankosappo should be plenty to kill Nappa. But those numbers are both pretty contentious. In all honesty, Nappa should be a lot closer to Goku's 8000, and Piccolo's normal power probably shouldn't be as high as Gohan's max of 2800. If you assume Piccolo's initial power of 1220 is equivalent to his 408 figure from a year ago, then a full power Makankosappo would be around 3900, though that's a big if.

[nineko]

The scaling is weird in these early fights, there's also the precedent of Kuririn's kienzan which was dangerous enough to cut Nappa's cheek (and it could have probably cut more, without Vegeta's warning), and since Piccolo > Kuririn (at that time) it's not unthinkable that the Makanko Sappo could have done at least some significant damage (if not a full blown hole like it did to the two children of Bardok a few months before).

[dbgtFO]

The scaling is weird in these early fights, there's also the precedent of Kuririn's kienzan which was dangerous enough to cut Nappa's cheek (and it could have probably cut more, without Vegeta's warning), and since Piccolo > Kuririn (at that time) it's not unthinkable that the Makanko Sappo could have done at least some significant damage (if not a full blown hole like it did to the two children of Bardok a few months before).

Yeah it really is absolutely weird.
Piccolo of course being the most egregious. Throughout the fight it is Gohan's power that is relied on for hopefully finishing off Nappa, but when he finally does release his full power blast, it's measured at 2,800.
But then Piccolo apparently had a much higher power than that all this time??
Of course if the power increases from special attacks are an additive increase rather than a multiplicative increase, then it checks out with Piccolo being at 1220 and then adding another 900-1000 on top of that for his Makankossapo at ~2200.
But yeah the values given in the accompanying pamphlet makes things look quite weird, especially because they don't give context to the numbers.
Gohan was listed at 2,800, but we know that was only for the Masenko, so does the same logic apply for Piccolo's 3,500?
Either way when he's that close to Nappa, it boggles the mind he'd think himself useless.

[MainJPW]

Yeah it really is absolutely weird.
Piccolo of course being the most egregious. Throughout the fight it is Gohan's power that is relied on for hopefully finishing off Nappa, but when he finally does release his full power blast, it's measured at 2,800.
But then Piccolo apparently had a much higher power than that all this time??

Another notable aspect is that Vegeta and Nappa never seem impressed with anything Piccolo displays, but are surprised and intrigued by Gohan's sudden surge in power.

Gohan was listed at 2,800, but we know that was only for the Masenko, so does the same logic apply for Piccolo's 3,500?
Either way when he's that close to Nappa, it boggles the mind he'd think himself useless.

I think the fact that Piccolo relied on Gohan to deliver the finishing blows indicates that Gohan was the stronger of the two if he used his full power. Piccolo also looked shocked when Gohan kicked Nappa into that rocky hill.
Even what Piccolo says here suggests Gohan is the stronger of the two overall:

Chapter: 220 (DBZ 26), P3.2
Piccolo: “Be confident, Gohan. If you put your mind to it, your power surpasses mine.”

What Kuririn said when Nappa and Vegeta were searching for Piccolo's group caught my attention. He said that they were heading for two large ki signatures, but couldn't tell whether it was Tenshinhan and Chaozu or Piccolo and Goku's kid. That suggested to me that everyone is more or less similar in power, with Piccolo having the highest power when relaxed and Gohan being the strongest at max power. Kuririn should be familiar enough with Tenshinhan and Chaozu's power levels since he trained with them for 6~7 months straight, and yet he still couldn't tell which group the Saiyans were headed for.

[DanielSSJ]

Yeah it really is absolutely weird.
Piccolo of course being the most egregious. Throughout the fight it is Gohan's power that is relied on for hopefully finishing off Nappa, but when he finally does release his full power blast, it's measured at 2,800.
But then Piccolo apparently had a much higher power than that all this time??

Another notable aspect is that Vegeta and Nappa never seem impressed with anything Piccolo displays, but are surprised and intrigued by Gohan's sudden surge in power.

Worth noting that Nappa and Vegeta weren't wearing their scouters for the bulk of the fight, and Vegeta only put his back on after the remaining heroes started cheering at Goku's eminent arrival.

[Hugo Boss]

Yeah it really is absolutely weird.
Piccolo of course being the most egregious. Throughout the fight it is Gohan's power that is relied on for hopefully finishing off Nappa, but when he finally does release his full power blast, it's measured at 2,800.
But then Piccolo apparently had a much higher power than that all this time??

Another notable aspect is that Vegeta and Nappa never seem impressed with anything Piccolo displays, but are surprised and intrigued by Gohan's sudden surge in power.

Worth noting that Nappa and Vegeta weren't wearing their scouters for the bulk of the fight, and Vegeta only put his back on after the remaining heroes started cheering at Goku's eminent arrival.

Even accounting that, I don’t believe that Piccolo could have displayed a greater number than Gohan’s masenko. That said, I think 2,800 is also a low number for an attack that Nappa had to put some effort to deflect, considering his battle power of 4,000. It would be more believable if Gohan’s battle power was closer to Nappa’s.

[DanielSSJ]

Even accounting that, I don’t believe that Piccolo could have displayed a greater number than Gohan’s masenko. That said, I think 2,800 is also a low number for an attack that Nappa had to put some effort to deflect, considering his battle power of 4,000. It would be more believable if Gohan’s battle power was closer to Nappa’s.

It's even worse if you consider Nappa closer to Goku at around 7000~8000 like me.

[miguelnuva1]

Where Vegeta and Nappa exicted because Gohan hit 2800 or where they exicted because Kakarot who was weaker than Raditz had a child that was a coward the entire fight and could now put at 2800?

Either way I personally put Piccolo at 2500.

Nappa starts at 4k and then gets up to likely 7kish.

[Hugo Boss]

I also think their surprise was mainly about Gohan being able to drastically alter his battle power, but my reading is also that he should momentarily hit a level close to Nappa, just not enough to matter much if Nappa can fight back. If Piccolo succeeded in immobilizing Nappa, that masenko should inflict large damage.

Anyway, I don’t think Nappa’s battle power actually rose mid-fight against Goku. For me, it’s more consistent that he wasn’t applying his full ability, given the context. Once he calms down and fights properly like Vegeta says, he and Goku look much closer, which suggests there wasn’t a big difference in their power level to begin with. Vegeta himself only learns to suppress and raise ki at will after his fight in Earth, so it makes sense that Nappa never had that ability either.

If you treat Goku at over 8,000, then Nappa should be roughly 6,000–7,000 while fighting sloppy and at least 8,000 when he calms down and fights seriously; Gohan’s masenko would sit around 4,000–5,000 (big number, but below Nappa’s normal level).

[DanielSSJ]

I also think their surprise was mainly about Gohan being able to drastically alter his battle power, but my reading is also that he should momentarily hit a level close to Nappa, just not enough to matter much if Nappa can fight back. If Piccolo succeeded in immobilizing Nappa, that masenko should inflict large damage.

Anyway, I don’t think Nappa’s battle power actually rose mid-fight against Goku. For me, it’s more consistent that he wasn’t applying his full ability, given the context. Once he calms down and fights properly like Vegeta says, he and Goku look much closer, which suggests there wasn’t a big difference in their power level to begin with. Vegeta himself only learns to suppress and raise ki at will after his fight in Earth, so it makes sense that Nappa never had that ability either.

Yeah it's kind of a pet peeve of mine when people either forget or ignore that Nappa and Vegeta have static battle powers in the Saiyan arc

If you treat Goku at over 8,000, then Nappa should be roughly 6,000–7,000 while fighting sloppy and at least 8,000 when he calms down and fights seriously; Gohan’s masenko would sit around 4,000–5,000 (big number, but below Nappa’s normal level).

The problem with this is that Vegeta reads off the 2800 number as Gohan's charging the attack, so 2800 is likely his max or closer to it.

[dbgtFO]

Yeah it's kind of a pet peeve of mine when people either forget or ignore that Nappa and Vegeta have static battle powers in the Saiyan arc

Yeah, we had that debate many times before.
I can't really blame people too much, since from a visual standpoint, we basically see Nappa and Vegeta "powering up" like how we usually understand the ability.
On Namek only Vegeta, Gohan, Krillin, the Namekians, Nail, Goku, Ginyu and Freeza are shown to power up like that and those are also the only characters that are stated to have the ability too.
Everyone else do not have power up sequences and Zarbon just had his transformation sequence.

[DanielSSJ]

Yeah, we had that debate many times before.
I can't really blame people too much, since from a visual standpoint, we basically see Nappa and Vegeta "powering up" like how we usually understand the ability.
On Namek only Vegeta, Gohan, Krillin, the Namekians, Nail, Goku, Ginyu and Freeza are shown to power up like that and those are also the only characters that are stated to have the ability too.
Everyone else do not have power up sequences and Zarbon just had his transformation sequence.

I can rationalize it as them just stirring up ki that's already there as opposed to drawing it out from a hidden reserve like the Earthlings, but yeah, it is confusing visual storytelling.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yeah I think the books were way off the mark with Piccolo at 3500. For me the smoking gun is that Gohan’s attacks deal the most visual damage, specially the Masenko: Nappa’s hand is swollen, he’s shaking, and he stutters as he tries to downplay it.

Post Kikoho (Bruise on his head by Kuririn)

Spoiler:

Post Piccolo’s blast

Spoiler:

Post Gohan (Kick then Masenko)

Spoiler:

Piccolo’s blast = No blood
Gohan’s kick and Tien’s Kikoho = Blood (more from Gohan)
Masenko = Real effort, probably would’ve damaged him.

On Nappa’s power itself, I’ve just come to accept it as a plothole. The change in his perfomance is too drastic to be a mere shouki issue, he couldn’t even see suppressed Goku. The big differences in numbers also make it hard to swallow: He struggled with 2800 and got clowned by 5000, but he keeps 8000 on edge?