What is a worse fate for Dragon Ball content? Being lost or unreleased?

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

This is not just in relation to dubs, as kei17 mentioned before there was a pilot of the original Dragon Ball only used for voice casting auditions that is known to exist via a few cel scans from official books, and of course there was the broadcast audio, which was partially lost for years and eventually found through extensive fan efforts.

I was also talking to a fellow fan recently about how there is complete, unreleased Dragon Ball content like the Ocean dub of Kai and then there's other complete products like the Animax dub of original Dragon Ball, which was aired but all 153 episodes are lost. I was saying how much of a waste the former was, but the fan I talked to brought up a good point that the existence of the latter means that there are fans out there that will never be able to revisit their childhood dubs, which truly sucks, although I still think the fact some fans got to experience a dub that can no longer be found means the actor's work was at least enjoyed at some point.

It also made me feel grateful that things like the complete broadcast audio has been found so I've been able to enjoy the Japanese version sounding as good as fans who watched on Fuji TV in the 80s and 90s did, as well as the Westwood and Blue Water dubs, which were my childhood dubs, I would hate to never have had the chance to rewatch them as it was fun to do so, especially after years of watching poor quality recordings. It is a shame that fans of Animax Dragon Ball or the TV2 Malay dubs can never relive that experience however.

[Hellspawn28]

If something is lost, it's lost! With being unreleased, it still exists and is not gone forever.

[MasenkoHA]

This feels like po-tay-toe po-tah-toe to me.

If I’m understanding the verbage correctly lost is “it existed at one point to be consumed by the public and now it’s gone and can’t be viewed even on the Internet through piracy” example: The Harmony Gold 5 episode dub before it resurfaced online back around 2020

And unreleased is it “we know it exists” but it never got any television broadcast or home media release. Example: Ocean Kai.


Just feels very distinction without a difference to me unless I’m missing something.

[The Dark Knight]

Things that can't be released likely remain behind a locked door forever; never to be seen by anyone outside a handful of officials. Lost material however, as we saw with the broadcast audio, does have a chance of being found eventually and shared with everyone. If I had to pick between the two, I'd rather something be lost, as there's always a chance it gets found and shared online.

[TheGreatness25]

It's definitely worse for content to be lost than unreleased. Simply because, as you mentioned, if something is lost, it'll be remembered but not relived. Though, with the Blue Water/Westwood dub, Harmony Gold dub, and broadcast audio, at least there's a chance that it might someday see the light of day unofficially. But unreleased is really inconsequential. We wouldn't even know Ocean Kai exists of it wasn't just so casually mentioned by voice actors. They just make a mention of it in passing and we as fans give it way more life than it was meant to be.

[coola]

Lost is worst, obviously, even unreleased stuff outside of VHS like that anime footage made for Terebikko got fansubbed and you can watch it.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

This feels like po-tay-toe po-tah-toe to me.

If I’m understanding the verbage correctly lost is “it existed at one point to be consumed by the public and now it’s gone and can’t be viewed even on the Internet through piracy” example: The Harmony Gold 5 episode dub before it resurfaced online back around 2020

And unreleased is it “we know it exists” but it never got any television broadcast or home media release. Example: Ocean Kai.


Just feels very distinction without a difference to me unless I’m missing something.

In both cases yes even piracy won't give you access to them, but there is a difference.

As TheGreatness25 said its something being remembered but not relived vs never being experienced at all. In the case of the former the product, at least at one point served its purpose of being consumed, but the latter means it never had that fortune.

We wouldn't even know Ocean Kai exists of it wasn't just so casually mentioned by voice actors. They just make a mention of it in passing and we as fans give it way more life than it was meant to be.

For what it's worth Subzero Ice was the first one to mention the Ocean dub of Kai, to which Sean Schemmel asked how he knew about it, so the Ocean cast mentioning it was inevitable. We still have no clue who Subzero Ice is/was, but the fact remains we would have known about that dub even if none of the Ocean cast ever talked about it.

[TheGreatness25]

For what it's worth Subzero Ice was the first one to mention the Ocean dub of Kai, to which Sean Schemmel asked how he knew about it, so the Ocean cast mentioning it was inevitable. We still have no clue who Subzero Ice is/was, but the fact remains we would have known about that dub even if none of the Ocean cast ever talked about it.

I didn't know the history of it, I just heard Brian Drummond, Kirby Morrow, and maybe Scott McNeil mention the project in passing. I really doubt that Sean Schemmel would know anything about it because why would he? He wouldn't have anything to do with it. I think if people didn't come out and actually say they worked on this thing, then it could've always just been chalked up to a fan theory or fan wish. Even now, it almost feels like, "Did they make a mistake? Did they think they were working on Kai but maybe they're thinking of the original Z?" That's how it feels to me.

So, it's a curiosity, but it's not like how it is for the Westwood/Blue Water dubs, where you know they exist! And it's been falling on fans' hands to actually bring it to the prior where the official keepers kind of threw it aside never to be seen or heard from again.

It's amazing how the Ocean dub falls on both sides of this equation.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I really doubt that Sean Schemmel would know anything about it because why would he? He wouldn't have anything to do with it.

Most likely heard it through the grapevine, as he commented on it around the same time Funimation's Kai dub was coming. Schemmel has since deleted his Facebook account so we can't see the full discussions between himself and fans, but as I recall he said at the time it was strictly internal info. He probably wouldn't have mentioned the Ocean Kai dub if Subzero Ice didn't bring it up (Schemmel apparently asked him how he knew about that dub).

I think if people didn't come out and actually say they worked on this thing, then it could've always just been chalked up to a fan theory or fan wish. Even now, it almost feels like, "Did they make a mistake? Did they think they were working on Kai but maybe they're thinking of the original Z?" That's how it feels to me.

No, we know for a fact the Ocean cast worked on Kai, it was not just them, but also the director Karl Willems, producer Diana Gage, and musicians all confirmed it. We also know WOW Unlimited were in negotiations to air Kai and not Westwood Z. There was no confusion at all in the actor's minds.

And it was not a pilot either, 98 episodes were registered by the CRTC as Canadian content, that's about as done as it gets.

So, it's a curiosity, but it's not like how it is for the Westwood/Blue Water dubs, where you know they exist! And it's been falling on fans' hands to actually bring it to the prior where the official keepers kind of threw it aside never to be seen or heard from again.

But the Ocean Kai dub is as real as the Westwood and Blue Water dubs, we know it was recorded and stored at Ocean's vault just as they were. The only difference is that this time it never left the studio. We can say beyond a shadow of a doubt it exists though.

[Tian]

But the Ocean Kai dub is as real as the Westwood and Blue Water dubs, we know it was recorded and stored at Ocean's vault just as they were. The only difference is that this time it never left the studio. We can say beyond a shadow of a doubt it exists though.

Correct me if I'm wrong but, didn't Lisa from the North American branch of Toei Animation mention they also had the Ocean Kai dub with them?

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

But the Ocean Kai dub is as real as the Westwood and Blue Water dubs, we know it was recorded and stored at Ocean's vault just as they were. The only difference is that this time it never left the studio. We can say beyond a shadow of a doubt it exists though.

Correct me if I'm wrong but, didn't Lisa from the North American branch of Toei Animation mention they also had the Ocean Kai dub with them?

Yes, it was in response to this email:

Lisa Yamatoya wrote:

I realize we do have the Canadian dub with Ocean Studio for DBZ-Kai #1-#98

So there is a possibility TOEI USA also have a copy of this dub in their archives. In any case, it again tells us again there is no reason to doubt that Ocean dubbed the entire show excluding The Final Chapters. The actors were not thinking of their work on Westwood Z when they spoke of Kai, they knew exactly what it was they worked on.

[MCDaveG]

I guess unreleased. As being lost is like a textbook Schrödinger paradox, it might or might not exist.
And those lost broadcast audio tracks, sure, fans were able to restore them to an extent from second-hand source, being taped from TV and for sure, they had to be degraded in comparison to the original source, even tho they sound way superior to that home release lo-fi crap... hence, we won't ever hear Dragon Ball with it's original audio.

And sometimes, you can get things lost definitively. We won't ever see the director's cut of Event Horizon, as the cut out scenes degraded beyond repair on movie tape, being stored in bad conditions and there is no back-up. We won't ever witness why was the original cut of the movie so unbereable for the test audience, that scenes had to be cut-out extensively and we are left just with the final studio light version.

With unreleased but existing stuff, it gives me a hope that it might get released someday (or leak at least).

[MasenkoHA]

But the Ocean Kai dub is as real as the Westwood and Blue Water dubs, we know it was recorded and stored at Ocean's vault just as they were. The only difference is that this time it never left the studio. We can say beyond a shadow of a doubt it exists though.

Correct me if I'm wrong but, didn't Lisa from the North American branch of Toei Animation mention they also had the Ocean Kai dub with them?

Yes, it was in response to this email:

Lisa Yamatoya wrote:

I realize we do have the Canadian dub with Ocean Studio for DBZ-Kai #1-#98

So there is a possibility TOEI USA also have a copy of this dub in their archives. In any case, it again tells us again there is no reason to doubt that Ocean dubbed the entire show excluding The Final Chapters. The actors were not thinking of their work on Westwood Z when they spoke of Kai, they knew exactly what it was they worked on.

On top of all that we have anecdotes from Kirby Marrow saying he was turned down “because he was too cool to play Goku for Kai” and Lee Tockar (who had no relation with the franchise prior) doing his Frieza voice for a fan. Neither of which would make sense in reference to Westwood Z

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Correct me if I'm wrong but, didn't Lisa from the North American branch of Toei Animation mention they also had the Ocean Kai dub with them?

Yes, it was in response to this email:

Lisa Yamatoya wrote:

I realize we do have the Canadian dub with Ocean Studio for DBZ-Kai #1-#98

So there is a possibility TOEI USA also have a copy of this dub in their archives. In any case, it again tells us again there is no reason to doubt that Ocean dubbed the entire show excluding The Final Chapters. The actors were not thinking of their work on Westwood Z when they spoke of Kai, they knew exactly what it was they worked on.

On top of all that we have anecdotes from Kirby Marrow saying he was turned down “because he was too cool to play Goku for Kai” and Lee Tockar (who had no relation with the franchise prior) doing his Frieza voice for a fan. Neither of which would make sense in reference to Westwood Z

Lee Tockar played Moori in the Westwood dub, but otherwise I agree with everything you said.

I don't think Richard Ian Cox ever had anything to do with Dragon Ball before Kai though, so him being cast as Goku is also very telling.

Either way, we know for sure 100% that Ocean recorded their own dub of Kai years after the Westwood and Blue Water dubs' completion.