Non-thread-worthy discussions

[PhantomSaiyan]

This is probably thread-worthy, but I'm gonna post it here anyway.

Vegeta cares about the Saiyan race.

Spoiler:

This is his last words right before dying. He begs, while crying, Goku to defeat Freeza, that the latter must die by a Saiyan's hands. You can say that Vegeta "hated Freeza because working for him was an insult to his pride", and Goku himself acknowledges this, but as you can see below, Goku also acknowledges that Vegeta was begging due to Freeza having killed his race, so it was both. He hated Freeza for having to work for him, and for killing his race.

Spoiler:

And then there's what Vegeta himself says in Movie 15. He would never join up with someone who destroyed his planet. This behavior could only be seen from soneone who cares, not from someone who didn't care.

I mean, yeah there's that, but there's also stuff like

• Vegeta killing Nappa, one of the few remaining Saiyans just because he wasn't useful to him anymore (and him not giving a crap about Raditz either)

• Proceeding to try and kill Goku and Gohan, the only two Saiyans left alive other than him by that point (for all he knew)

• Straight up stating that he doesn't give a shit about his planet being blown up in both Minus and the Broly Movie (was he just bluffing? He seemed genuine to me)

At best, he's sending mixed signals

[ZeroNeonix]

Yeah, I don't get people who say that Vegeta doesn't care about the Saiyan race being essentially dead. He's a complex character, and he often puts on this mask that he doesn't care about anything. The way I see it, there's his true self and there's the persona he presents to others. He's a family man, who loves his wife and kids, but he's too prideful to say that out loud. When Qui reveals that it was Frieza who destroyed Planet Vegeta, he acts like he doesn't care, but his final words before death are a request to Goku to avenge the Saiyan race, who Frieza used and destroyed. There's nuance to his character.

[Grimlock]

At best, he's sending mixed signals

Not really. It's just that it's very complicated and complex. Nappa suggests to revive Raditz, but it doesn't mean he cared for him. But the point is, when it comes to show what you really feel under certain circumstances, it's virtually impossible to lie. Vegeta may not have cared for individuals specifically, but as a whole, he didn't want the Saiyans to be wiped and for this planet to be destroyed. That much is very clear. So it's outright wrong to say he didn't care for Saiyans, as I have come across people saying that very recently.

I do agree that Vegeta may have been sincere, as a kid, that he didn't care for his planet and all, but he matured and changed after some point, and culminated in tears right before dying. Feelings as a kid rarely stay the same after reaching adulthood. I believe Saiyans are pure cold as kids, but they may "warm" to some extent later on, as time passes and as they mature, and depending on who they interact with. This is evidenced by Bardock, who came to care for others, and then, under Gine's influence, came to care about his children too.

[PhantomSaiyan]

At best, he's sending mixed signals

Not really. It's just that it's very complicated and complex.

Aka, sending mixed signals.

You started off with "Not really" then just explained why he's sending mixed signals.

I agree with you that it's more complex and nuanced than people give it credit for, but putting up a front of "I don't care" but caring deep down and only showing it in particular instances, is what's called sending mixed signals.

Mixed signals: communication--verbal, nonverbal, or behavioral--that is inconsistent or contradictory, making the receiver uncertain about the sender's true intentions, feelings, or expectations

[Grimlock]

Oh okay then, I apologize for misunderstanding you.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Oh okay then, I apologize for misunderstanding you.

No worries!
No need to apologize, maybe I could have explained myself better in my first comment, at the end of the day we're on the same page

[Vegetto95]

Funny how, after a Gokū float appeared yet again at the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade the other day, I've seen a bunch of people talking about how "After several years, Al Roker finally pronounced Saiyan correctly!!" And of course, he used the incorrect Funimation "Say-in" pronunciation, as opposed to how he said it a few years ago when the Super Saiyan Blue float was present, as "Sigh-an", which obviously is pretty much spot on with the correct Japanese pronunciation. But unfortunately, since we're talking about the USA, the overwhelming majority of DB fans here have zero idea that that's the case...

Just, *sigh*... I know its been said 16 billion times at this point, but I seriously hate how much the Funi dub and its overt popularity in the Anglosphere has severely damaged the knowledge base of the American side of the fandom.

Sorry, unoriginal rant over lol

[TechExpert2021]

Funny how, after a Gokū float appeared yet again at the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade the other day, I've seen a bunch of people talking about how "After several years, Al Roker finally pronounced Saiyan correctly!!" And of course, he used the incorrect Funimation "Say-in" pronunciation, as opposed to how he said it a few years ago when the Super Saiyan Blue float was present, as "Sigh-an", which obviously is pretty much spot on with the correct Japanese pronunciation. But unfortunately, since we're talking about the USA, the overwhelming majority of DB fans here have zero idea that that's the case...

Just, *sigh*... I know its been said 16 billion times at this point, but I seriously hate how much the Funi dub and its overt popularity in the Anglosphere has severely damaged the knowledge base of the American side of the fandom.

Sorry, unoriginal rant over lol

That's odd. Is it because Toei or Crunchyroll told Roker to pronounce "Saiyan" the way FUNimation's English dubs do? If yes, I assume that ties in with the fact that Toei and Crunchyroll have been pushing the use of FUNimation's dub names and dub-isms in many Dragon Ball products (even in Japan) since the release of DBS Broli. Or maybe it's because the majority of the English-speaking DB fanbase didn't like the correct pronunciation of "Saiyan"? I have no clue.

[ABED]

I've always dug that in the SSJ Goku vs. Freeza fight, Goku points out that Freeza's strong but he sucks as a martial artist.

[MasenkoHA]

I've always dug that in the SSJ Goku vs. Freeza fight, Goku points out that Freeza's strong but he sucks as a martial artist.

I thought it was very poignant that he spared Piccolo and Vegeta because he wanted a rematch with them (and yes obviously the Kami thing with Piccolo). But with Freeza he was just like “yeah you’re pathetic. Peace”

[ABED]

I've always dug that in the SSJ Goku vs. Freeza fight, Goku points out that Freeza's strong but he sucks as a martial artist.

I thought it was very poignant that he spared Piccolo and Vegeta because he wanted a rematch with them (and yes obviously the Kami thing with Piccolo). But with Freeza he was just like “yeah you’re pathetic. Peace”

Interesting. I hadn't thought of that. Great point. Something else along the same lines is Goku has had to constantly dig down deep to win fights. He's far more battle tested than nearly anyone. Freeza is naturally strong, fast, and agile. He leans too heavily on his natural gifts. One of my favorite parts of the fight is Goku goading him into reaching his max power and very quickly noting that Freeza doesn't know it's consuming way too much power. And lastly something else that I just thought about is even Ginyu seems like a more competent fighter than Freeza, but just not nearly as strong. He took Goku's body and because he didn't know how to make it all work as one he couldn't tap into its full power, but as the fight against Goku and his friends went on, Ginyu was clearly figuring it out on the fly. Freeza meanwhile returns in ROF and makes the same mistake as before and uses a form he's not adept at and doesn't realize it's consuming way too much power.

[coola]

I've always dug that in the SSJ Goku vs. Freeza fight, Goku points out that Freeza's strong but he sucks as a martial artist.

I thought it was very poignant that he spared Piccolo and Vegeta because he wanted a rematch with them (and yes obviously the Kami thing with Piccolo). But with Freeza he was just like “yeah you’re pathetic. Peace”

Yet Goku was still upset when he "killed" Freeza, was it because he thought maybe it would be same with Piccolo and Vegeta?

[ABED]

I took it as more disgust. Freeza was so stubborn that even after Goku had given him multiple opportunities to leave he still tried to kill him even with power Goku gave him.

[MasenkoHA]

I've always dug that in the SSJ Goku vs. Freeza fight, Goku points out that Freeza's strong but he sucks as a martial artist.

I thought it was very poignant that he spared Piccolo and Vegeta because he wanted a rematch with them (and yes obviously the Kami thing with Piccolo). But with Freeza he was just like “yeah you’re pathetic. Peace”

Yet Goku was still upset when he "killed" Freeza, was it because he thought maybe it would be same with Piccolo and Vegeta?

As Abed said it was more contempt that he showed Freeza some mercy and Freeza tried to stab him in the back. He clearly had no interest in a rematch or thought Freeza was gonna reform like Piccolo did

[coola]

And it was still not as severe as Tambourine, in that case, Goku went into full murder mode constantly saying "I'm gonna get you, you gonna pay" and both characters were voiced by Ryusei Nakao

[Grimlock]

I made this argument in another thread a few months ago that the manga's the source of all the stories & characters & everything else springboards off of it. Think about it. Even when they get a few points off the mark, they always default back to the manga's version of events. This is the most logical way to look at these things. It's like when people say Doctor Who has no canon. Yes it does. Doctor Who's TV show is the canon & everything else is just spun off from it. None of the external media matters unless the show says so, hence why the majority of Paul McGann's Big Finish stuff counts, as the Night of the Doctor mini-sode canonized them with him referencing several of his companions. Everything else, nope, considering Doctor Who has adapted or disregarded external media stories in the past to tell either new versions of or just new stories altogether.

Yes, I've seen you bringing up "Doctor Who" before. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it a western franchise? I have heard of it, but never watched or anything. If it's a western franchise, no wonder it would go out of its way to have a canon, since that's a western concept. I'm yet to see an eastern product/media/franchise officially using canon, though.

Applying that modus operandi to Dragon Ball is nothing but a personal choice. It doesn't mean that the franchise works the same way. And even if we were to do that, then you will quickly see that what I've been exhaustively saying is true, because the original manga hasn't acknowledged anything outside of it, which would mean that nothing is canonical. The manga ended in 1995.

And as per the very definition of canon: "a religious term used to refer to which Biblical books were included in the official Bible" (pay very attention to what is underlined), it is like I said before, saying that the original manga is canonical doesn't offer anything of value, canon is not concerned with the original material, it is concened with the other materials that "diverges off", like you say, of the original material.

I maintain what I said, you want to say that there's a canon and that the original manga is canonical? Okay, all I can say to that is that the water is wet, earth is solid, ice is slippery. I don't know where you want us to get with such statements, but if that's what makes you happy, so be it. May we please put this subject to bed? It's almost 2026...

[Scsigs]

Yes, I've seen you bringing up "Doctor Who" before. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it a western franchise? I have heard of it, but never watched or anything. If it's a western franchise, no wonder it would go out of its way to have a canon, since that's a western concept. I'm yet to see an eastern product/media/franchise officially using canon, though.

Weird to say that because I don't think that makes any sense & isn't even remotely true, but ok.
Kamen Rider. Kamen Rider has multiple universes that the main series take place in, yet also has alternate versions of those worlds it taps into sometimes ever since Decade to avoid continuity problems if the writers don't wanna portray the original versions of the characters, or an actor isn't available to come back.

Yes, Doctor Who is Western franchise. Specifically British. However, certain fans make the argument that the show doesn't have a canon, even though it does & until recently (as in the Chris Chibnall era), it respected & maintained a consistent canon. The only things that really changed were the depictions of the future as time marched on or writers had different ideas on how to portray future timeframes. Especially because early episodes in the first 2 Doctors' eras are lost (though the scripts were adapted into novels & they still have them, plus fans gave the BBC audio recordings of the episodes) because of the BBC's junking policy in the 70s & VHS tapes didn't exist until the late 70s. And it's only more recently that the canon started being massively fucked with with huge retcons & bad writing that didn't pan out trying to be "experimental" or some shit. This is the point, though. Doctor Who has a mass of external media while the DB manga also does, yet some fans have a weird compulsion to say this isn't the case that they're external media for a reason & try to fit it all in, which makes no sense to do, nor do the people who make the shit concern themselves with it. Toriyama never concerned himself with it even though he watched it & even praised the anime staff on occasion outside of referencing Bardock in the manga. Granted, the Z anime influenced how he wrote Goku in the Android Arc because he didn't want Goku to be seen as less selfish than he was & what not. Hell, with how much modern DB media springboards off the manga, it really hammers in the point I'm making.

Applying that modus operandi to Dragon Ball is nothing but a personal choice. It doesn't mean that the franchise works the same way. And even if we were to do that, then you will quickly see that what I've been exhaustively saying is true, because the original manga hasn't acknowledged anything outside of it, which would mean that nothing is canonical. The manga ended in 1995.

This also works for my argument. Because the manga hasn't acknowledged the animated works outside of it (minus the original Bardock special), that's also a reason to not view anything outside of it as the true canon.

And as per the very definition of canon: "a religious term used to refer to which Biblical books were included in the official Bible" (pay very attention to what is underlined), it is like I said before, saying that the original manga is canonical doesn't offer anything of value, canon is not concerned with the original material, it is concerned with the other materials that "diverges off", like you say, of the original material.

I mean, canon has multiple meanings, including one related to bread. Only 2 relate to anything religious. The modern definition as used by most people is related to this one, "the authentic works of a writer." Toriyama only directly wrote the manga, the last 4 movies Super's storylines & other things in it, & Daima. Everything else has been Toei's staff or Toyotaro. Toriyama has also given external information in interviews that ended up in the guidebooks, the Daizenshuus, & the Full Color Manga releases, some of which has been incorporated into the new stuff he wrote. Only really strengthens my argument here, tbh, when Toei also defers to the manga & Toriyama.

I maintain what I said, you want to say that there's a canon and that the original manga is canonical? Okay, all I can say to that is that the water is wet, earth is solid, ice is slippery. I don't know where you want us to get with such statements, but if that's what makes you happy, so be it. May we please put this subject to bed? It's almost 2026...

Technically, when you're in water, it's not wet. It's only when you get out of it that you get wet.
I mean, I'm an argumentative fuck, so no, but I'm ok taking a break from this if you want to.

[ZeroNeonix]

Personally, I like to think of "canon" as what is relevant to what you're currently consuming. There can be multiple canons from official sources. Like with Star Wars, there was an original canon that is not part of the Disney canon. I don't see that as making the original canon less valuable, but if you go into a Disney Star Wars show or movie with the original canon in mind, things won't make sense.

With Dragon Ball...it seems like they want everything and nothing to be canon at the same time. Even Toriyama didn't evidently care that much about how things fit together. It's very messy. What's canon? Whatever they choose to reference in their current media. Are Super and Daima part of the same canon? I struggle to see how that's possible, but maybe? If either Daima or Super come back and reference the other, then we'll know, and we'll just have to gloss over the contradictions.

[The Dark Knight]

With Dragon Ball...it seems like they want everything and nothing to be canon at the same time.

This is honestly the best description of how canon works in Dragon Ball. I think it all comes down to business, as declaring something as "non-canon" will instantly hurt its sales, something these companies do not want to happen. GT for example, despite not being the most well liked part of the franchise, still moves a ton of merchandise, so why would they jeopardize that by throwing it under the bus ?

[Koitsukai]

I think it’s not so much that "there is no canon", but "canon doesn't matter at all to the PTB".
Nobody gives a fuck, they have no problem launching a new series that makes it look like the original series was just a warm up for the adventures of the new midquel... and then have a another series that doesn't align with that new universe introduced in the midquel.