Torishima's Harsh Take on Akio Iyoku and DB Store

[PhantomSaiyan]

On a side note, I've seen Torishima rag on Attack on Titan's ending, the Demon Slayer story, One Piece's writing, Daima, Super, Toyotaro, it feels like Torishima hates everything lol.

About Attack on Titan, his point was a bit more nuanced than that, I've seen a lot of people share misinformation on what he actually said.

He wasn't "hating" on it, or even talking about the ending itself. His criticism of the aot story was that after it's ending, people lost interest since the mystery was revealed, so the story in his opinion doesn't have any staying power, unlike Dragon Ball which keeps being relevant and selling tons of merch even decades later.

His argument was entirely just about how relevant a story is after it's ending, he didn't comment on aot's quality in and of itself.

[SupremeKai25]

people lost interest since the mystery was revealed, so the story in his opinion doesn't have any staying power,

I don't know about AoT but that's a very good point for *any* story. You want your world to have mysteries and secrets left after the story is over. That's basic world-building. A world without any mystery left, where all the questions have been answered, is a dead world, because there's nothing left to talk about.

If your world has no mysteries left because you thought it was a good idea to reveal everything, you killed your world.

That's why I firmly believe that Dragon Ball should NEVER reveal anything about the ancient Saiyans or other "ancient lore" things.

[Mr Baggins]

Torishima and Iyoku should sit down over a cup of tea/coffee and sort their differences like mature men. There's no need for this petty drama and "back in my day" rambling when we have both to thank for a lot of things we love about Dragon Ball old and new.

"Secret society" is a slippery slope that would make me worry about Torishima going down a conspiracy rabbit hole. Hopefully that doesn't happen.

In a better world, there'd be less bizarre tribalism from it. Just earlier I came across a tweet from someone that said you're on Team Torishima if you're a GT fan and Team Iyoku if you're a Daima fan, which made me audibly chuckle because I don't give a damn about any of these people. It's also a stupid generalization.

If this is what a post-Toriyama fandom looks like, I want no part of it.

Needs to be said even if you prefer the post-Torishima stuff it also went in that direction because Torishima told Toriyama to ditch the road story format and go Fist of the North Star. Toriyama also respected Torishima’s opinion enough to drop 19 and 20 as the main villains for 17 and 18 and then the latter for Cell even though Torishima had no editorial authority over Toriyama at that point. Which was absolutely the correct decision to make on Toriyama’s part.

I believe the pressure from Torishima on changing Dragon Ball's format from a road manga to a battle manga happened very early on in the series, essentially forming the impetus for the initial Tenkaichi Budokai arc onward. Toriyama later pushed back on this a little with the Red Ribbon arc, then ultimately relented for good going into the following arc. Source is this interview.

My preference for the post-Piccolo arcs have more to do with their manner of storytelling, to be honest; no doubt because Toriyama had more creative freedom to focus on it. It's impossible for me to judge a hypothetical Androids arc without Cell because I didn't read it. Even with Cell, Toriyama did the bulk of the heavy lifting to build and craft a story around all of that.

Funnily enough, I'm pretty sure Torishima has also criticized that era of the series. The man just does not tend to express favorability towards anything that didn't have his direct involvement, which I guess is natural behavior for a stringent, often boastful editor. Doesn't always make him right.

[Majin Buu]

I'm not particularly fond of Akio Iyoku. Daima was the final confirmation for me that nostalgia pandering with low hanging fruit seems to be the only idea he has for new Dragon Ball stuff (While I love Daima, I didn't need Super Saiyan 4 to be in it and he's likely the reason it's there when that could have been something original).

So I'm fine with Torishima taking the piss out of him.

[The Dark Knight]

I'm not particularly fond of Akio Iyoku. Daima was the final confirmation for me that nostalgia pandering with low hanging fruit seems to be the only idea he has for new Dragon Ball stuff (While I love Daima, I didn't need Super Saiyan 4 to be in it and he's likely the reason it's there when that could have been something original).

He actually said that figuring out what fans like and putting new spins on them is one of his goals with these new projects. As long as he's in-charge of the anime side of things, classic ideas with a different paint job (sometimes literally) is all we can expect to get.

[Vegard Aune]

people lost interest since the mystery was revealed, so the story in his opinion doesn't have any staying power,

I don't know about AoT but that's a very good point for *any* story. You want your world to have mysteries and secrets left after the story is over. That's basic world-building. A world without any mystery left, where all the questions have been answered, is a dead world, because there's nothing left to talk about.

If your world has no mysteries left because you thought it was a good idea to reveal everything, you killed your world.

Perhaps, but at the same time, I think there is something to be said for a story that has a very definitive ending. I'm sure Kodansha would have loved to make more spinoffs and such of Attack on Titan, considering how massive the series was, but with the way it ended, no, there really wasn't much room for that. Isayama concluded the story in a way that so irrevocably altered the setting that any potential sequels would have to be in an entirely different genre. A lot of people hated the ending in the manga (Weirdly, the anime seemed to get a much warmer reception despite the ending being almost identical, save for a few little details), but I think this take that it was bad because there wasn't anything left to speculate on is one that I don't think I've seen anyone but Torishima make.

...And technically there are absolutely open questions by the end of AoT. The ultimate origin of the Titans was kind of explained but the explanation still raised more questions that nobody even could address, and the very last page is very much open for interpretation... But it's still the kind of ending where it feels like everything that the author wanted to say, had been said.

[FinalForumPodcast]

I think Akio is way too obsessed with nostalgia-pandering and fanservice, but I'd rather take that than the franchise collecting dust in Shueisha's custody

Not me. There are THOUSANDS of pages of manga, HUNDREDS of episodes, DOZENS of movies, and more than enough stuff that already exists to watch, rewatch, discuss, learn about, dive into, play, and enjoy. I couldn't rewatch the entire franchise in a single year if I WANTED to...and I don't even want to because I'd get burned out cramming that much stuff into my eyes.

I don't really NEED any more Dragon Ball at all, and I'd rather have it just stop than go down a path where it becomes so diluted it doesn't even feel like the same franchise anymore (it arguably has already crossed that threshold but I just think of how the Godzilla franchise has basically embraced the exact opposite messages of what it started out saying, and I don't want that for Dragon Ball)

[MasenkoHA]

I think Akio is way too obsessed with nostalgia-pandering and fanservice, but I'd rather take that than the franchise collecting dust in Shueisha's custody

Not me. There are THOUSANDS of pages of manga, HUNDREDS of episodes, DOZENS of movies, and more than enough stuff that already exists to watch, rewatch, discuss, learn about, dive into, play, and enjoy. I couldn't rewatch the entire franchise in a single year if I WANTED to...and I don't even want to because I'd get burned out cramming that much stuff into my eyes.

I don't really NEED any more Dragon Ball at all, and I'd rather have it just stop than go down a path where it becomes so diluted it doesn't even feel like the same franchise anymore (it arguably has already crossed that threshold but I just think of how the Godzilla franchise has basically embraced the exact opposite messages of what it started out saying, and I don't want that for Dragon Ball)

This can never be stated enough apparently. People want to talk about what Dragon Ball needs to do or not do but Dragon Ball just didn’t need to exist past 1995 (1997 if I’m being extremely generous with GT). An 11 year run is LONG by any sane metric.

I’m happy for fans who are satisfied with modern Dragon Ball but fans who aren’t happy just idk watch something else or just re-visit the portion of Dragon Ball you do enjoy?

[JulieYBM]

They should appeal to me, a grown woman who is satisfied with neither old nor new Dragon Ball.

[The Dark Knight]

I don't really NEED any more Dragon Ball at all, and I'd rather have it just stop than go down a path where it becomes so diluted it doesn't even feel like the same franchise anymore (it arguably has already crossed that threshold but I just think of how the Godzilla franchise has basically embraced the exact opposite messages of what it started out saying, and I don't want that for Dragon Ball).

Dragon Ball at this point is well beyond being diluted; it's a different property from what it was during the Pilaf to Buu days. The difference between Classic Dragon Ball and Modern Dragon Ball is as big as the difference between Batman 89 and Batman & Robin. At this point, the only thing in common between the two Dragon Ball eras is the name.

People want to talk about what Dragon Ball needs to do or not do but Dragon Ball just didn’t need to exist past 1995 (1997 if I’m being extremely generous with GT).

I am of this mindset as well. Once an author puts their pen down, it's time for all parties involved to move on to something else; find the new best thing. If Dragon Ball didn't end back in 97, Toei may not have adapted One Piece, missing out on a huge franchise in the process. Toei may have missed out on a hidden gem that could've been the next big thing as a result of wasting so much time and resources on Super.

I’m happy for fans who are satisfied with modern Dragon Ball but fans who aren’t happy just idk watch something else or just re-visit the portion of Dragon Ball you do enjoy?

Dragon Ball fans are incapable of moving on; they want this franchise to become the next Simpsons that just goes on forever.

[JulieYBM]

Dragon Ball Super existing really isn't all that different the original comic going on for eleven years. The thrust of, "Well, people keep asking me to make more" is what sustained Dragon Ball throughout the 1980s and 1990s, so I really don't think there's much point of harping on that. The issue is the challenges both the original comic and the 2010s stuff faced. Dragon Ball Super's biggest issue is that it lacked strong leadership until ostensibly the Tournament of Power when Nagamine took over and Tomioka was writing more scripts based on his ideas.

There's good material there, but when you don't have a strong creator leading a project, that project is going to not function.

[The Dark Knight]

Dragon Ball Super existing really isn't all that different the original comic going on for eleven years. The thrust of, "Well, people keep asking me to make more" is what sustained Dragon Ball throughout the 1980s and 1990s, so I really don't think there's much point of harping on that. The issue is the challenges both the original comic and the 2010s stuff faced. Dragon Ball Super's biggest issue is that it lacked strong leadership until ostensibly the Tournament of Power when Nagamine took over and Tomioka was writing more scripts based on his ideas.

There's good material there, but when you don't have a strong creator leading a project, that project is going to not function.

I am of the mindset that everything has a time and place, and for Dragon Ball, it was the 80s and 90s. Super and Daima both had good ideas; I'm not saying there's nothing of value there. With that said however, was there enough value there to justify bringing back a series that had not one (Original Manga), but two (GT) satisfying conclusions ? When Toriyama was writing Dragon Ball back in the day, each story brought so much more to the table, something that has hardly happened with the newer stories we've gotten. I just think that Toei would've been better off putting their efforts into a completely new series instead, and Toriyama should've just started a new one himself instead of going back to Dragon Ball.

[JulieYBM]

Dragon Ball Super existing really isn't all that different the original comic going on for eleven years. The thrust of, "Well, people keep asking me to make more" is what sustained Dragon Ball throughout the 1980s and 1990s, so I really don't think there's much point of harping on that. The issue is the challenges both the original comic and the 2010s stuff faced. Dragon Ball Super's biggest issue is that it lacked strong leadership until ostensibly the Tournament of Power when Nagamine took over and Tomioka was writing more scripts based on his ideas.

There's good material there, but when you don't have a strong creator leading a project, that project is going to not function.

I am of the mindset that everything has a time and place, and for Dragon Ball, it was the 80s and 90s. Super and Daima both had good ideas; I'm not saying there's nothing of value there. With that said however, was there enough value there to justify bringing back a series that had not one (Original Manga), but two (GT) satisfying conclusions ? I just think that Toei would've been better off putting their efforts into a completely new series instead, and Toriyama should've just started a new one himself instead of going back to Dragon Ball.

I've literally said on multiple occasions in other threads as of late that I think that we should be trading more adaptions of manga/whatever for anime-original projects. If I was literally in charge of deciding whether a new Dragon Ball project was made or that money went to a new anime unrelated to any prior IP, I would chose the the latter.

That being said, we don't live in a hypothetical situation where Super and Daima don't exist. They exist, they are going to exist in thirty years when I have been a Dragon Ball fan for sixty years, and they will exist long past that. It's just stupid as hell to be complaining about this stuff ten-plus years after it began.

Ultimately, I don't really care if new Dragon Ball happens. I care that it's production staff have a creative envirnment to create a well-directed, well-animated, well-written, well-acted, well-every-other-aspect-of-filmmaking project. If it has to exist, at least support your artists by giving them the resources they need to create art they are satisfied with.

[The Dark Knight]

I've literally said on multiple occasions in other threads as of late that I think that we should be trading more adaptions of manga/whatever for anime-original projects. If I was literally in charge of deciding whether a new Dragon Ball project was made or that money went to a new anime unrelated to any prior IP, I would chose the the latter.

Whether it's an anime based on a new manga or a completely original anime, I'd take both over more Dragon Ball any day.

Ultimately, I don't really care if new Dragon Ball happens. I care that it's production staff have a creative environment to create a well-directed, well-animated, well-written, well-acted, well-every-other-aspect-of-filmmaking project. If it has to exist, at least support your artists by giving them the resources they need to create art they are satisfied with.

Daima gave us all of that except the "well-written" part. You can have the best looking show in the world, but that can only carry you so far if the writing is lacking. I do believe that Daima was a step in the right direction, and a major improvement over what we got in Super and GT, but it was far from where it should have been at this point.

[JulieYBM]

I've literally said on multiple occasions in other threads as of late that I think that we should be trading more adaptions of manga/whatever for anime-original projects. If I was literally in charge of deciding whether a new Dragon Ball project was made or that money went to a new anime unrelated to any prior IP, I would chose the the latter.

Whether it's an anime based on a new manga or a completely original anime, I'd take both over more Dragon Ball any day.

That's thinking too small, anime-original projects should always take priority.

Ultimately, I don't really care if new Dragon Ball happens. I care that it's production staff have a creative environment to create a well-directed, well-animated, well-written, well-acted, well-every-other-aspect-of-filmmaking project. If it has to exist, at least support your artists by giving them the resources they need to create art they are satisfied with.

Daima gave us all of that except the "well-written" part. You can have the best looking show in the world, but that can only carry you so far if the writing is lacking. I do believe that Daima was a step in the right direction, and a major improvement over what we got in Super and GT, but it was far from where it should have been at this point.

I literally complain all the time about how Daima's poor writing—particularly in how it just feels like it's copying a bullet list of notes from Toriyama—is its biggest flaw. The post you're quoting is literally about emphasizing the importance of all aspects of filmmaking needing to be good to create a good television series or film.

[jjgp1112]

As harsh as it was, there's not one thing he said that wasn't, well...right.

[jjgp1112]

It's a fact that we don't know who had the idea of replacing Yammamuro first, so why are yall fighting about it as if any of us knows the answer

Like it's been said, we only know Toriyama picked him, but that does not mean he had the idea of changing character designer. That's all we know, everything else is just guessing

Yeah, somebody probably just brought forth the animators to Toriyama and he judged from there. That doesn't mean it was *his* or Iyoku's idea, it very well (likely) could've came from Toei.

[Mr Baggins]

I was just correcting a particular assertion, but it's true that the demotion was a separate decision made by executives at either Toei or Shueisha. Per Yamamuro himself in 2019, he wasn't invited to the (apparently rigorous) audition process for the Broly movie and that's about all we know.

Also, agreed with whoever said we don't need more new Dragon Ball content. We'll likely get it, and more power to the people that will enjoy it, but I doubt I'll tune in.

[sangofe]

We'll likely get it, and more power to the people that will enjoy it, but I doubt I'll tune in.

Even if it's more Daima that you enjoyed? Jokes aside, power to you actually, for being able to detach you from Dragon Ball like that. To me that's hard even without Toriyama around.

[FinalForumPodcast]

I’m happy for fans who are satisfied with modern Dragon Ball but fans who aren’t happy just idk watch something else or just re-visit the portion of Dragon Ball you do enjoy?

Agreed. I generally enjoy the newer Dragon Ball iterations pretty well (Daima might be my least enjoyed post-Z anime thing, and I think it's fine, but forgettable. It has some GREAT moments but just kind of is...there) but I look at another franchise I love, the Godzilla franchise, and of everything since 2014, I like maybe two things in any REAL way. It's a mess of a franchise at this point, and I don't really look forward to any of it anymore, but I just sit back and watch the stuff I do actually enjoy. With a job, kids, wife, pets, and other responsibilities chewing up time and leaving me with about 40 minutes of freedom per day, here's MORE than enough of it.

Dragon Ball at this point is well beyond being diluted; it's a different property from what it was during the Pilaf to Buu days. The difference between Classic Dragon Ball and Modern Dragon Ball is as big as the difference between Batman 89 and Batman & Robin. At this point, the only thing in common between the two Dragon Ball eras is the name.

I mostly agree. Dragon Ball has shifted, as most (all?) franchises at this point have. It's not about creating a story first and then building a marketing machine around it with merch and tie-ins. It's about creating all that merch and all those tie-ins and a vast transmedia empire and maximizing profitability and using the story piece as a (flimsy) excuse to keep it all going and retain legal power over the intellectual property.

That almost entirely negative aspect aside, there's still a lot that I like. It's okay to allow yourself to enjoy things. The world is awful enough. Finding a bit of joy is okay. (No judgment on anyone who DOESN'T like what the franchise has become, also)