Which was the better sequel: GT, Super, or Daima ?

[SupremeKai25]

This... puts a bitter taste in my mouth. Hence why I said "I hate the manga's ending."
While I don't necessarily believe fictional characters must be perfect, or that an ending needs a sense of finality, I also believe that we should not be normalizing behaviors like this as quirky and charming when in reality, they're incredibly hurtful, but that's just my two cents on this topic.

Shouldn't this argument also apply to the ending of GT, where these two once close and friendly families drifted apart?

Can you explain why "that's life" makes the ending of GT better, but not the ending of Z?

Yeah... it sucks that Goku left his entire family to pursue his hobby. Unfortunately, that's all too common in real life when people become so obsessed by something that they ignore everything else. That's life.

He's extra-dead in GT, it's all but stated he had no choice in the matter but to leave with Shen Long to make up for his mistakes and resurrect everybody, something Vegeta, Piccolo and Muten Roshi all realize. In Z, he was alive and had full and total control of his actions, and left out of selfishness. That's quite the difference there.

Also, you repeating "That's life" makes me feel like you're not interested in debating in good faith and just trying to get a reaction.

I was talking about the families 100 years later. I'm just trying to understand your core point. This is your main point, right?

I have also forgotten to mention that the entire message behind GT's ending is learning to cope with loss.
The families drifting apart is just another aspect of that.

"Nothing lasts forever, things change. But hold your head high and keep living life."

Don't read my replies as bad "faith," I'm genuinely trying to understand why you hated the DBZ ending but you found the GT ending more... "emotional" or "heartfelt". Tell me if these are the terms you would use.

If you see me so invested in bombarding you with questions, it's because I genuinely adore the end of DBZ. And from what I have seen in my time in the online fandom, both here and in much bigger social networks, I feel like I'm in the minority when I say this.

The main criticism I have found about the DBZ ending, which you also mentioned, is that it feels unfinished or cynical... and I just don't see this. Yeah, Goku is leaving his family, but it's to train the next generation of Earth fighters. He and Uub are smiling and just so excited for their next adventures. While it sucks that Goku's family won't see him for the foreseeable future, it's still a happy ending.

I just don't understand what the GT ending does that is so different from that. And for the record, I am NOT talking about Goku leaving with Shenron, because that's not the ending. The ending of GT is Goku and Vegeta descendants fighting. And THAT ending... well, as I told you, I found it quite sad that these two families drifted apart.

Back to your point about "learning to cope with loss, families drifting apart is just another aspect of that"...

Well, in my opinion, this reading can be applied to the ending of Z too. I don't know why you see this as "bad faith." It's literally what happens in that ending. Goku's family needs to cope with him leaving to train Uub. I'm not trying to troll you or bait a reaction, I'm just trying to argue in favor of the DBZ ending and hopefully persuade you to look at it under a different light.

[Kenji]

I was talking about the families 100 years later. I'm just trying to understand your core point. This is your main point, right?

You're the one who brought up the point of "It's unbelievable that the families would drift apart in GT's ending."
And I simply argued against that by saying it's not that unbelievable and it happens all the time in real life, and it's not incompatible with GT's message or tone, but that's beside the point:

The main point being that I feel GT despite all of its flaws had things to say or add to the franchise that hadn't been said or added before, and that makes me appreciate it more over Super and Daima, which I feel are over-focused on artificially extending Dragon Ball by repeating what has already been said for the sake of selling toys.

That said, as others in this thread have pointed out already, said messages were overall incompatible with DB's overall tone of being an escapist fantasy, and it's completely valid to not like them. My main point in this whole debate is that, whether you liked what GT was saying or not, it at least did have something to say in the end.

The main criticism I have found about the DBZ ending, which you also mentioned, is that it feels unfinished or cynical... and I just don't see this.

I have never said DBZ's ending feels unfinished or cynical? I said the writers at Toei did.
Personally, I feel it does its job, it ends the manga on a note of "The adventure continues on, some things will never change, try to live life as excitedly as Goku does."

My biggest gripe with it has always been how it normalizes the hurtful behavior from its main character.
But I will concede that's a personal issue of mine with fiction in general, not just with Dragon Ball.

Yeah, Goku is leaving his family, but it's to train the next generation of Earth fighters. He and Uub are smiling and just so excited for their next adventures. While it sucks that Goku's family won't see him for the foreseeable future, it's still a happy ending.

The manga explicitly has Vegeta say that it's a lie, and his real intentions are training Oob for the sake of having a stronger opponent to fight against in the future.

I just don't understand what the GT ending does that is so different from that. And for the record, I am NOT talking about Goku leaving with Shenron, because that's not the ending. The ending of GT is Goku and Vegeta descendants fighting. And THAT ending... well, as I told you, I found it quite sad that these two families drifted apart.

Back to your point about "learning to cope with loss, families drifting apart is just another aspect of that"...

Well, in my opinion, this reading can be applied to the ending of Z too. I don't know why you see this as "bad faith." It's literally what happens in that ending. Goku's family needs to cope with him leaving to train Uub. I'm not trying to troll you or bait a reaction, I'm just trying to argue in favor of the DBZ ending and hopefully persuade you to look at it under a different light.

The big difference is that a lot changed in GT's ending. whereas they stayed the same in Z.
Families drifted apart, characters died, life went on as if nothing even mattered.

It's sad, but it's exactly the reaction the GT writers wanted to cause in their audience.
Dragon Ball was over, that was a fact the audience and Toei had to cope with. It's sad, but it's life. It's quite a departure from something Toriyama would write himself, but Toriyama wasn't writing GT, Toei was. It's different, but I would struggle to call it bad.

[JulieYBM]

Dragon Ball GT has been a part of what Dragon Ball is for thirty years now. Having a small little box for what Dragon Ball is or can be is silly in general, but thirty years after it did a melancholic ending is a hill that makes no sense to die on.

So we're not allowed to have preferences on how we like this franchise to be? I should just accept everything blindly?

GT tried something different and imo it failed, what do you want me to say? Pretend that it's great because it was brave enough to stray from what I love about Dragon Ball? Hell no.

I said that Dragon Ball GT's more melancholic ending is a part of what Dragon Ball is after you said that it was unlike Dragon Ball. Art is, in general, a lot of things. Dragon Ball, specifically, is a lot of things. There's no right answer, and if you want me to use slightly less polite language, yeah, I think you're wasting your time having a the attitude that you're having. I don't even think that Dragon Ball GT qualifies as an overall good television series, I'm not trying to defend it as if it's perfect. It's a pretty awful series, but it pulls off a relatively less upbeat ending decently and I think it's the best part of the series by virtue of attempting it.

[PhantomSaiyan]

I said that Dragon Ball GT's more melancholic ending is a part of what Dragon Ball is after you said that it was unlike Dragon Ball. Art is, in general, a lot of things. Dragon Ball, specifically, is a lot of things. There's no right answer, and if you want me to use slightly less polite language, yeah, I think you're wasting your time having a the attitude that you're having. I don't even think that Dragon Ball GT qualifies as an overall good television series, I'm not trying to defend it as if it's perfect. It's a pretty awful series, but it pulls off a relatively less upbeat ending decently and I think it's the best part of the series by virtue of attempting it.

So let me get this straight... You think that having a preference and stating it = wasting time?

Alright... Freedom of thought is a thing after all so you do you...

As for the rest of what you've said, the franchise is big, yeah. Big enough that nobody here consumed everything it has to offer.
Heroes is also Dragon Ball. The weird random commercials that only Japan got are also Dragon Ball. All the videogames, weird spin off mangas that nobody reads. The toys.

No shit all of it is the Dragon Ball brand.
But in general, when the average person talks about Dragon Ball, they OBVIOUSLY refer to the original story, either the original 42 volumes of the manga, or the original run of the og and Z anime, and if they don't, they specify it.
Or do you think that everytime someone mentiones the franchise, they are literally talking about everything ever made under the brand's name?
There's no need to be needlessly pedantic about it, really, especially when I very clearly specified I was talking about Toriyama's Dragon Ball from the start.

[Kenji]

OK, I wasn't going to say anything, but given that this comment was directed at me specifically:

As for the families drifting apart thing, that's just life.

I hate the argument "but it's realistic that families drift apart, that's life"

Where has Dragon Ball EVER been a "I guess that's life" kind of show exactly? It's literally a goofy light hearted fairy tale world where everything always ends up in the best possible outcome, and everyone lives happily ever after.

That's just never been the tone of Dragon Ball, I'm sorry. I've expressed multiple times how anthitetical to the DB spirit GT's ending was, so I'm not going to reiterate it again, but good god, "that's life" is NOT it when it comes to discussing this franchise, this ain't Bojack Horseman.

Dragon Ball has always, by admission of Toriyama and Torishima, been written as escapist light hearted media first and foremost.

Yeah, GT's ending feels tonally inconsistent with the rest of the franchise, and it's totally okay to not like for that merit alone, but context matters here. This was written in a time when Toriyama had stopped writing Dragon Ball, there was no manga anymore, and GT knew Dragon Ball's days were numbered, having come up with this ending from day one. I don't think it's that much of a sin for a silly goofy series to deviate from its formula a bit and give itself an emotional, heartfelt goodbye to its audience that have been following them as it aired non-stop for well over 10 years.

Toriyama by his own admission didn't like writing heavy, emotional stories. But given that he had nothing but praise to give to the Bardock special, that feels more like his own limitations as a writer speaking than a hard-written rule that Dragon Ball had to follow and could never break from. Even during Toriyama, Dragon Ball didn't have any shortage of emotional, heavy, heartfelt moments, such as when Vegeta was dying in Namek, when Gohan was fighting against Cell, or when Vegeta decided to sacrifice himself against Majin Boo to atone for his sins.

I feel like you're making a big deal about nothing, honestly.

[PhantomSaiyan]

I feel like you're making a big deal about nothing, honestly.

It's called stating an opinion.
This is a forum made for discussing things. Since when posting an opinion counts as making a big deal out of things?
Is your reply to me also you making a big deal out of me making a big deal out of nothing?

I'm not going to bed tonight crying because GT's ending wasn't to my liking.
I just threw an opinion into the discussion, that's it. And somehow I'm getting ppl telling me that I'm "wasting my time" and "making a big deal out of nothing" I guess we should all just shup up and never discuss anything then? lol

[Kenji]

I feel like you're making a big deal about nothing, honestly.

It's called stating an opinion.
This is a forum made for discussing things. Since when posting an opinion counts as making a big deal out of things?
Is your reply to me also you making a big deal out of me making a big deal out of nothing?

I'm not going to bed tonight crying because GT's ending wasn't to my liking.
I just threw an opinion into the discussion, that's it. And somehow I'm getting ppl telling me that I'm "wasting my time" and "making a big deal out of nothing" I guess we should all just shup up and never discuss anything then? lol

Alright.
Despite our differences, I appreciate you for sharing your perspective and I apologize if I came off as dismissive and invalidating.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Alright.
Despite our differences, I appreciate you for sharing your perspective and I apologize if I came off as dismissive and invalidating.

It's alright man, I only responded to that one sentence I took issue with, but I do appreciate you explaining your reasoning in the rest of your comment, even though it may feel like I ignored it, I think you made good points

[OLKv3]

Super easily. Daima was pretty boring

[super michael]

DBS main issue is its writing and the writers not communicating with each other. Some characters designs in DBS are just bad.

GT Goku = Good Goku
Daima Goku = Good Goku
DBS Goku = Dumb annoying Goku

They really messed up the main character in DBS, along with Chi Chi, Goten, Trunks and Buu.

[Grimlock]

Dragon Ball, when written by Toriyama, stayed a lighthearted story despite the characters growing up and having families, so it's not like those two things automatically turn an escapist fantasy story into "I guess that's life"

I don't think anyone is saying that Dragon Ball is a "that's life" story. It doesn't mean it shouldn't have that, though. Another thing, Dragon Ball is not about symbolism, it doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't have a little bit of symbolic things (I'm bringing this up because I remember having said something about it in another conversation sometime ago). Goku's and Vegeta's families drifting apart shouldn't be a big deal, just a normal thing that happened.

That's different.
Stand alone self contained specials on other characters are one thing, ending the entire franchise (because that's what GT was supposed to be, the official ending of the franchise until BoG came along) with that tone clashes hard with everything that came before.
You can't compare the two.

I don't know, I don't really have a strong opinion on that. I like Dragon Ball Z's ending as it apparently sets Uub as the next protagonist and seemingly implies that the next generation would take over. I like Dragon Ball GT's ending for the emotional part. And I like Dragon Ball Online's ending even more, without really caring if it tonally clashes with everything that came before it. I think Goku and Vegeta leaving Earth for good is the best outcome for the series. So whatever ending works for me.

[MCDaveG]

Imagine Cabba using SSG

Sorry, had to do it!

Spoiler:

This is a prime example of the chaos that Super is. Keeping the familiar design approach from the 90s and mixing in Toriyama's new contemporary style that evolved over the years and not adapting it to make it consistent (or vice versa, adapting the "new" Toriyama style for everyone, including legacy characters). Future Trunks has the same problem and the hair color is just minor cosmetic issue in non-existant anime continuity.

Daima on the other hand? Chef's kiss!

...sets Uub as the next protagonist and seemingly implies that the next generation would take over.

I will never forgive them for missing the chance of adapting the definitive manga ending (not to mention the extended Kanzenban one) in Kai, after they willingly bastardized it in 90s for the GT sequel

[The Dark Knight]

Imagine Cabba using SSG

Sorry, had to do it!

Spoiler:

Cabba in his normal state is even skinnier than that; he'd just disappear using SsjG.

[JulieYBM]

Super Saiyan God Cabba is just Cabba turning into a woman.

[MCDaveG]

Super Saiyan God Cabba is just Cabba turning into a woman.

Pardon me correcting you, but Super Saiyan Goddess!

[Grimlock]

How about giving Cabba the Super Saiyan Grade 2 transformation?

I will never forgive them for missing the chance of adapting the definitive manga ending (not to mention the extended Kanzenban one) in Kai, after they willingly bastardized it in 90s for the GT sequel

Yeah, it's high time the Kanzenban version should be the one to be adapted in all media. I think only Xenoverse 2 acknowledged it so far, kind of.

[PhantomSaiyan]

I will never forgive them for missing the chance of adapting the definitive manga ending (not to mention the extended Kanzenban one) in Kai, after they willingly bastardized it in 90s for the GT sequel

It would not look good though.

Remember how Dragon Ball looked in those years? The Kai opening, the eye catches all had that modern Yammamuro style that clashed HARD with the original's aesthetic, it wasn't an artistic choice either, that era of digital was not capable of replicating the old style like it can today.

If they added a new scene there it would look like a completely different show, it would not mesh well

[JulieYBM]

I will never forgive them for missing the chance of adapting the definitive manga ending (not to mention the extended Kanzenban one) in Kai, after they willingly bastardized it in 90s for the GT sequel

It would not look good though.

Remember how Dragon Ball looked in those years? The Kai opening, the eye catches all had that modern Yammamuro style that clashed HARD with the original's aesthetic, it wasn't an artistic choice either, that era of digital was not capable of replicating the old style like it can today.

If they added a new scene there it would look like a completely different show, it would not mesh well

The look of the digital paint and processing used was due a poor aesthetic choice, not so much the limits of the technology. Other series all had much better coloring and compositing, Dragon Ball was just stuck with an awful look.

[PhantomSaiyan]

The look of the digital paint and processing used was due a poor aesthetic choice, not so much the limits of the technology. Other series all had much better coloring and compositing, Dragon Ball was just stuck with an awful look.

I've only seen anime properly replicate the old aesthetic style in recent times, definitely not back then. Did Dragon Ball have it worse than others? Of course.

Were the others equipped to do a scene that looked straight out of the 90s that could flow seamlessly into the original dbz anime ending? No. It would look out of place regardless, so the point that they could not add onto the ending without it being completely jarring still stands.

[Cold Skin]

To me, it is clearly Super that got it right overall, except it was hit or miss on a technical aspect depending on the episodes or missing arcs in the manga (which you have to view externally through movies or Anime Comics).
The technical aspect is about to be fixed starting this year, so no complaining here!

Daima's still nice as a bonus, fun adventure I gladly accept.

GT feels like something weird, something else on which Dragon Ball appearances were pasted. Its presence in video games doesn't bother me, but I won't watch it ever again and don't appreciate it. It feels "weird and distorted" somehow to me, in all aspects.