Non-thread-worthy discussions

[The Dark Knight]

Instead of Shenron handing Piccolo his orange form in Superhero, I wish Toriyama would've saved it for Daima, have it be the result of Piccolo merging with Neva to help Goku and Vegeta fight Gomah.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Instead of Shenron handing Piccolo his orange form in Superhero, I wish Toriyama would've saved it for Daima, have it be the result of Piccolo merging with Neva to help Goku and Vegeta fight Gomah.

Please, Piccolo has enough people inside of him already

[Mystic-han]

Instead of Shenron handing Piccolo his orange form in Superhero, I wish Toriyama would've saved it for Daima, have it be the result of Piccolo merging with Neva to help Goku and Vegeta fight Gomah.

And it just being useless?

[JulieYBM]

I wish Piccolo had just had the form from the outset for Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero. Or hell, gotten it during the Tournament of Power arc. "I paid attention to how God ki feels and meditated until I could replicate it" is a serviceable explanation.

[The Dark Knight]

And it just being useless?

It's not like it achieved anything in Superhero, but at least here he would've reached it through a method other than Shenron giving it to him as a "bonus", whatever that means.

[Tian]

I wish they could've saved the Orange Piccolo form for a hypothetical film set in new Namek as some kind of Ancient Namekian power to use against Lord Slug.

I'm not fond of Slug at all but, I feel there are still some elements of Namekian history to explore and it would've been a good chance to give Piccolo his long deserved spotlight rather than share it with Gohan.

[JulieYBM]

I'm not sure Slug is popular enough to deserve the Broly treatment. It might have just been more fruitful to create a new antagonistic Namekian from the ground up, especially since that would mean not needing to carry over anything they didn't want from the original Slug.

[The Dark Knight]

I feel there are still some elements of Namekian history to explore and it would've been a good chance to give Piccolo his long deserved spotlight rather than share it with Gohan.

Superhero was initially intended to be a Piccolo solo movie, but Iyoko insisted Gohan be forced in so that they could recreate his Ssj2 against Cell moment. Even if this movie was set on Namek, Gohan would tag along.

[MasenkoHA]

In retrospect having a Toriyama penned Broly movie has been the biggest fandom pandora’s box of irritation. Now over half of the fandom discourse is wanting so and so movie villain to become “canon” and with Toriyama in the next world this isn’t even going to happen anyways but I guess Coola and Janemba appearing in the Super manga by Toyotaro is somehow more legitimate than the movies that already exist?

[JulieYBM]

In retrospect having a Toriyama penned Broly movie has been the biggest fandom pandora’s box of irritation. Now over half of the fandom discourse is wanting so and so movie villain to become “canon” and with Toriyama in the next world this isn’t even going to happen anyways but I guess Coola and Janemba appearing in the Super manga by Toyotaro is somehow more legitimate than the movies that already exist?

Fans are stupid and should never be listerned to, anyway, so it's such a blah situation to now be in.

The ultimate truth of the matter is, Capsule Corp Tokyo, Shueisha and Toei Animation will ultimately do whatever they want with Dragon Ball and we'll either accept it or just move on to greener pastures. I do think that some combination of the three will try to pull off another Broly with someone like Janemba or Coola, because they want that sweet, sweet money.

Speaking for myself as an individual, I'll just stick around if I think a film/series/whatever is a good film/series/whatever. This necessitates hiring a good writer and director with actual vision and letting them go to town, but after how wonky both Super Hero and Daima have been, I'm not expecting the next project to learn from their mistakes. With luck, I'll be proven wrong and we'll get something that at least feels directorally confident, like the Tournament of Power arc was for most of that stretch.

[The Dark Knight]

Fans are stupid and should never be listerned to, anyway, so it's such a blah situation to now be in. The ultimate truth of the matter is, Capsule Corp Tokyo, Shueisha and Toei Animation will ultimately do whatever they want with Dragon Ball and we'll either accept it or just move on to greener pastures.

Listening to fans is exactly what these companies said they do, and why this franchise is in the rut that it's in.

[JulieYBM]

Fans are stupid and should never be listerned to, anyway, so it's such a blah situation to now be in. The ultimate truth of the matter is, Capsule Corp Tokyo, Shueisha and Toei Animation will ultimately do whatever they want with Dragon Ball and we'll either accept it or just move on to greener pastures.

Listening to fans is exactly what these companies said they do, and why this franchise is in the rut that it's in.

It's one thing to listen to fans and see what they want, but they still ultimately need to place their faith in their production staff. Dragon Ball Super: Broly would not have succeeded if Nagamine Tatsuya—known for his own personal creative vision and also a student of the first two Broly films' director, Yamauchi Shigeyasu—had not directed the film. Nagamine had directing instincts and followed them and that is why Broly wasn't just as bland as Battle of Gods, Ressurection F, Super Hero and Daima.

[The Dark Knight]

It's one thing to listen to fans and see what they want, but they still ultimately need to place their faith in their production staff. Dragon Ball Super: Broly would not have succeeded if Nagamine Tatsuya—known for his own personal creative vision and also a student of the first two Broly films' director, Yamauchi Shigeyasu—had not directed the film. Nagamine had directing instincts and followed them and that is why Broly wasn't just as bland as Battle of Gods, Ressurection F, Super Hero and Daima.

Broly was a visual spectacle, no one will argue against that, but what did it bring to the table in terms of the story ? Generally speaking, it was nothing more than a modern combination of the Bardock special, Broly's first movie, and Fusion Reborn. I will go as far as to say that it was a worse version of those three stories, especially the Bardock section. Battle of Gods may have been lacking visually, but it more than made up for it in the writing department. Daima may have hit a few bumps along the way, but at least it attempted to do something new by introducing us to new places and characters.

[Tian]

In retrospect having a Toriyama penned Broly movie has been the biggest fandom pandora’s box of irritation. Now over half of the fandom discourse is wanting so and so movie villain to become “canon” and with Toriyama in the next world this isn’t even going to happen anyways but I guess Coola and Janemba appearing in the Super manga by Toyotaro is somehow more legitimate than the movies that already exist?

Yeah, I gotta admit I've gotten used to Toei's current formula of recycling elements in recent movies and series because I've just given up on expecting completely original plots without turning out to already established characters like Freeza, Broly and Cell.

[JulieYBM]

It's one thing to listen to fans and see what they want, but they still ultimately need to place their faith in their production staff. Dragon Ball Super: Broly would not have succeeded if Nagamine Tatsuya—known for his own personal creative vision and also a student of the first two Broly films' director, Yamauchi Shigeyasu—had not directed the film. Nagamine had directing instincts and followed them and that is why Broly wasn't just as bland as Battle of Gods, Ressurection F, Super Hero and Daima.

Broly was a visual spectacle, no one will argue against that, but what did it bring to the table in terms of the story ? Generally speaking, it was nothing more than a modern combination of the Bardock special, Broly's first movie, and Fusion Reborn. I will go as far as to say that it was a worse version of those three stories, especially the Bardock section. Battle of Gods may have been lacking visually, but it more than made up for it in the writing department. Daima may have hit a few bumps along the way, but at least it attempted to do something new by introducing us to new places and characters.

Super Broly doesn't feel like it's trying to adapt Toriyama 1:1. Nagamine's voice feels present in the film and we can see from interviews how he approached the characters and directing with his own skills and experience as a director.

For other modern projects, we're always hearing lines about sticking to Toriyama and very rarely seeing or hearing about letting a director lead a project. The least bland piece of Super Hero—aside from the Piccolo-heavy dialogue scenes, which would have been scripted by Toriyama—was the decision to ask Toriyama if the production staff could change Gohan's first fight to have it involve rain fall. There should have been more decisions like that on a bigger scale.

I don't really feel like relitigating Bardock nonsense again. The two characters have different purposes and Super Bardock works within the framing of rhe film and as a general premise as a character. He's likable and understandable as a character and I would have loved to see more of his ruminating on life and what his place in it was. Super Bardock is cool in this film.

[Koitsukai]

To me the issue with the Broly movie is that it introduced an ally, but the subsequent stories do not follow up on it.

This is a gang that welcomes everyone, just don't eat Goku's food, don't kill Krilin and you are family. And not even the latter is that rigid of a rule. Why not invite Broly then?
Give me some Broly stepping up against 7-3, Saganbo, Moro.
Put him on Cereal planet, let him try to defend his new friends.
Show me some more of him, let's see him struggle and grow.
Only now he is being shown a bit.

I wish Piccolo had just had the form from the outset for Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero. Or hell, gotten it during the Tournament of Power arc. "I paid attention to how God ki feels and meditated until I could replicate it" is a serviceable explanation.

To me it felt extra weird after two years of people cheating their way up in the manga.

[Jack Bz]

For other modern projects, we're always hearing lines about sticking to Toriyama and very rarely seeing or hearing about letting a director lead a project. The least bland piece of Super Hero—aside from the Piccolo-heavy dialogue scenes, which would have been scripted by Toriyama—was the decision to ask Toriyama if the production staff could change Gohan's first fight to have it involve rain fall. There should have been more decisions like that on a bigger scale.

I got the opposite impression - that the production changed Super Hero into a retread different from what Toriyama originally intended. Wasn't it originally intended to be more of a slice of life movie with Piccolo as the star before Iyoku pushed for Gohan to be a co-star, and thus we got a retread of the same Gohan story they always tell about him forgetting how to fight and then remembering? I would have loved to see the original concept realised without that interference.

[Grimlock]

Yeah, I gotta admit I've gotten used to Toei's current formula of recycling elements in recent movies and series because I've just given up on expecting completely original plots without turning out to already established characters like Freeza, Broly and Cell.

Poor Toei, still getting blamed for other people's mistakes. One of the characters you mentioned was regrettably brought back by Toriyama himself, without even the need of a suggestion from somone else. Another one you mentioned by Shueisha and at least one, that we know about, was brought back by Toyotaro.

Not all that is bad come or came from Toei. The creator and the right holders can shit on their own project. And then again, even "original plots" may be just a disguise. Isn't Moro and his saga just a rehash of Cell and Cell saga, down to Goku giving senzu beans to enemies and all?

[Tian]

Poor Toei, still getting blamed for other people's mistakes. One of the characters you mentioned was regrettably brought back by Toriyama himself, without even the need of a suggestion from somone else. Another one you mentioned by Shueisha and at least one, that we know about, was brought back by Toyotaro.

I guess I was a bit too forgiving on the other parties but well, I was really skeptical of the facts that Freeza was mainly brought back by a song that Toriyama heard and Broly was apparently canon'd because of the character's popularity in the west.

Those are facts I found too random (Freeza's reason) and too good (Broly's reason) to be true.

Not all that is bad come or came from Toei. The creator and the right holders can shit on their own project.

Maybe I also got used for animated production companies to barely listen the original authors and not hear their audiences at all that I've automatically assumed this pattern of recycling was Toei's fault.

It didn't help matters (at least for me) that Toei's GT rehashed several elements of both OG DB and DBZ that this pattern felt more like Toei's doing.

But I guess I blamed Toei more than I should and I think I have to give them some break.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Broly was apparently canon'd because of the character's popularity in the west.

Those are facts I found too random (Freeza's reason) and too good (Broly's reason) to be true.

One thing I've learned from being a Dragon Ball fan is to never be surprised as the most unlikely things can eventually happen. The idea of Broly returning was always something people laughed at.... until it happened, same with Evil Goku Goku Black.

On the dub side most fans thought alternate English dubs were a thing of the past.... until Bang Zoom Super happened. I never thought we'd get a Brian Drummond cameo in a future Funimation dub, but it happened with Copy Vegeta.

So I'm prepared for future content to be something none of us would have ever expected or previously thought was just some fanficcy garbage.