GT treating the Z movies as having happened

[Grimlock]

Oh I haven't seen Super.

Lucky you. But in Dragon Ball Super Broly, Vegeta says that he knows about the fusion dance (as he should), although he said Trunks told him about it, instead of saying he saw it from the Otherworld, like in Majin Buu saga. Still, after that, Goku and Piccolo teach him the technique. If that Vegeta had to learn it, no reason to assume GT Vegeta can do it without being taught as well (which happened in Movie 12).

[Scsigs]

I think people take fan serivce or small nods way too seriously. Trunks only uses his sword in the opening and not in the actual anime. The animators are like "Hey wouldn't that be cool", but fans will be like "This movie happen because of this one thing!".

Yeah, agreed. There are a few things like that from the opening that we didn't see in the actual show. I wonder if they were planning on giving Trunks a sword in 1 of the unproduced stories they were planning, but cancelled when they decided to pivot to Baby.

At the very least, GT doesn’t seem to treat it as if it’s the first time Vegeta’s ever performed the fusion dance. It seemed to me like the writers at Toei were operating under the idea that Goku and Vegeta had done the fusion dance before and Movie 12 was the only instance of them having done so in any form of media at the time. I mean, unless we assume that they decided to fuse for fun offscreen at some point.

Then again, Gogeta in GT acted a lot more like Vegetto than his Movie 12 self, so I don’t know.

What? In GT, Gogeta acted more like Gotenks than Vegetto. Vegetto toyed with Buu, but with a purpose. He wanted Buu to absorb him so he could go inside him to try to save his sons & Piccolo. Gotenks toyed with Buu too at points, but only because the Trunks half of him caused him to get overconfident with & overestimate his abilities & power & made him waste time doing it. And that's largely accepted to be because he was a kid & Trunks being raised by Vegeta inherited Vegeta's flaws of overestimating his powers & his ego shooting up as a result. Gogeta toyed with Omega Shenron because he wanted to humiliate him as well as got overconfident with his powers, which made him waste time in stark contrast to how Vegetto went about things, as there was no other point than him just flexing his own powers. That, logically, shouldn't have happened because Vegeta in GT was portrayed as passed his previous characterization to be a more balanced character.

I also think the movies disregarding the main continuity worked to their benefit. They let us see a bunch of cool stuff that the main story rarely, if ever, got around to;

-The Spirit Bomb/Fusion/SS3 actually succeeding at defeating villains

-The entire Z gang fighting alongside Goku in Tree of Might. From watching Z's openings you'd think these teamups would be more common, but no.

-The first ever real Goku/Vegeta team up in Return of Cooler (in the anime it only happens in Buu arc filler, while in the manga the closest they get is taking turns vs Kid Buu)

-An all out battle between the Z Fighters and a group of Androids, with all 3 Super Saiyans present. It's basically what the Android arc was building up to before changing course with Cell. We never saw Goku fight 16, 17, and 18 in Z, but Movie 7 is the next best thing.

-Broly being an evil Super Saiyan who actually lives up to the original legend of being a bloodthirsty monster

-Gohan getting some more focus in multiple movies

-Gogeta

I don't think that anyone is arguing against these. It's just mainly a means of approaching the material differently. The Toei staff also just needed a way of ending the conflict fast. Toriyama, partly because he's a comedy writer, partly because he was a little jaded on traditional heroes, he felt like doing things in a more straight-forward manner was boring & really liked the use of irony in his storytelling & characterizations. He also liked drawing things out to their most extreme points where everything felt their most dire.

Oh I haven't seen Super.

Lucky you. But in Dragon Ball Super Broly, Vegeta says that he knows about the fusion dance (as he should), although he said Trunks told him about it, instead of saying he saw it from the Otherworld, like in Majin Buu saga. Still, after that, Goku and Piccolo teach him the technique. If that Vegeta had to learn it, no reason to assume GT Vegeta can do it without being taught as well (which happened in Movie 12).

Vegeta says he found out about SS3 from watching Goku fight from Otherworld/King Yemma's, so it's not illogical to assume he found out about Fusion through the same manner, but at the same time, that's fine too. I think the main conceit of having Vegeta refuse to fuse with Goku through the potara is also more built on him viewing it as humiliating to his ego that he can't get shit done through his own power & later in Fusion Reborn & Super: Broly, he views the dance as just plain humiliating which is why it takes him a bit to be more amenable to the idea.

[90sDBZ]

While we’re on the subject of the movies though, it’s weird that out of the 13 DBZ movies of the original run, the only ones that bothered to include Yamcha, Tenshinhan and Chaotzu were movies 3 and 9. Meanwhile, Oolong was constantly getting shoved into those movies, despite being little more than a background character in the manga at that point.

Toei definitely had some favouritism going on when it came to the movies.

Piccolo was consistently shown to be a badass, saving Gohan with his dramatic entrances and destroying the henchmen. Movie 4 even had him play a critical role in beating Slug.

Krillin was the butt of the joke in nearly every movie, getting his ass kicked, cowering in terror, and even getting urinated on. He felt out of character at times, like in Movie 2 when he dives to the ground in terror because Goku and Piccolo are about to fight. At least Movie 5 had him put up a decent fight against Sauza.

Vegeta got his ass kicked a lot too, often brutally, which is consistent with the series at least. Movie 8 having him turn coward felt wrong though. At least against Frieza he'd attempted to fight before falling into despair.

Goku himself fairs really well in both the movies and GT, winning fights left and right. It's funny to think he only kills a small handful of enemies in Z, while in the movies and GT he has a massive bodycount.

[JulieYBM]

While we’re on the subject of the movies though, it’s weird that out of the 13 DBZ movies of the original run, the only ones that bothered to include Yamcha, Tenshinhan and Chaotzu were movies 3 and 9. Meanwhile, Oolong was constantly getting shoved into those movies, despite being little more than a background character in the manga at that point.

Toei definitely had some favouritism going on when it came to the movies.

Piccolo was consistently shown to be a badass, saving Gohan with his dramatic entrances and destroying the henchmen. Movie 4 even had him play a critical role in beating Slug.

Krillin was the butt of the joke in nearly every movie, getting his ass kicked, cowering in terror, and even getting urinated on. He felt out of character at times, like in Movie 2 when he dives to the ground in terror because Goku and Piccolo are about to fight. At least Movie 5 had him put up a decent fight against Sauza.

Vegeta got his ass kicked a lot too, often brutally, which is consistent with the series at least. Movie 8 having him turn coward felt wrong though. At least against Frieza he'd attempted to fight before falling into despair.

Goku himself fairs really well in both the movies and GT, winning fights left and right. It's funny to think he only kills a small handful of enemies in Z, while in the movies and GT he has a massive bodycount.

It's less so favortism and more so following easily understandable character archetypes that kids can identify with. Gohan is the audience surrogate, Piccolo is the stoic mentor, Kuririn is the comedic relief, et cetera. Koyama was trying to churn out two films a year while also following a set of rules whem making entertainment for kids and their families and working on other projects.

[WittyUsername]

What? In GT, Gogeta acted more like Gotenks than Vegetto. Vegetto toyed with Buu, but with a purpose. He wanted Buu to absorb him so he could go inside him to try to save his sons & Piccolo. Gotenks toyed with Buu too at points, but only because the Trunks half of him caused him to get overconfident with & overestimate his abilities & power & made him waste time doing it. And that's largely accepted to be because he was a kid & Trunks being raised by Vegeta inherited Vegeta's flaws of overestimating his powers & his ego shooting up as a result. Gogeta toyed with Omega Shenron because he wanted to humiliate him as well as got overconfident with his powers, which made him waste time in stark contrast to how Vegetto went about things, as there was no other point than him just flexing his own powers. That, logically, shouldn't have happened because Vegeta in GT was portrayed as passed his previous characterization to be a more balanced character.

Ok? The point is that he acts differently from how he did in Movie 12.

[Scsigs]

Ok? The point is that he acts differently from how he did in Movie 12.

I mean, yeah, but claiming he acted like Vegetto is wrong when their motives for toying with their enemies were different.

[Kid Buu]

I also think the movies disregarding the main continuity worked to their benefit. They let us see a bunch of cool stuff that the main story rarely, if ever, got around to;

-The Spirit Bomb/Fusion/SS3 actually succeeding at defeating villains

-The entire Z gang fighting alongside Goku in Tree of Might. From watching Z's openings you'd think these teamups would be more common, but no.

-The first ever real Goku/Vegeta team up in Return of Cooler (in the anime it only happens in Buu arc filler, while in the manga the closest they get is taking turns vs Kid Buu)

-An all out battle between the Z Fighters and a group of Androids, with all 3 Super Saiyans present. It's basically what the Android arc was building up to before changing course with Cell. We never saw Goku fight 16, 17, and 18 in Z, but Movie 7 is the next best thing.

-Broly being an evil Super Saiyan who actually lives up to the original legend of being a bloodthirsty monster

-Gohan getting some more focus in multiple movies

-Gogeta

One thing I really like about Toei are the settings they use. The original manga mostly just uses tournament stadiums and wastelands, and I really appreciated Toei's use of other scenary like the city (Lord Slug) or the arctic (Super Android 13).

While we’re on the subject of the movies though, it’s weird that out of the 13 DBZ movies of the original run, the only ones that bothered to include Yamcha, Tenshinhan and Chaotzu were movies 3 and 9. Meanwhile, Oolong was constantly getting shoved into those movies, despite being little more than a background character in the manga at that point.

Yeah that has always been a shame. At least Toei did give the three a big moment in the cartoon when they beat the Ginyu Froce.

Lucky you. But in Dragon Ball Super Broly, Vegeta says that he knows about the fusion dance (as he should), although he said Trunks told him about it, instead of saying he saw it from the Otherworld, like in Majin Buu saga. Still, after that, Goku and Piccolo teach him the technique. If that Vegeta had to learn it, no reason to assume GT Vegeta can do it without being taught as well (which happened in Movie 12).

Lol I guess it is surprising someone on a DB forum hasn't seen Super. I got kinda burnt out on the new matierla in the mid 2010s, and when Super was first announced as as BOG+ROF retread, I went in a "I'll get back to it" and never did. I might get around to it, I at least would watch that film.

Toei definitely had some favouritism going on when it came to the movies.

Piccolo was consistently shown to be a badass, saving Gohan with his dramatic entrances and destroying the henchmen. Movie 4 even had him play a critical role in beating Slug.

Krillin was the butt of the joke in nearly every movie, getting his ass kicked, cowering in terror, and even getting urinated on. He felt out of character at times, like in Movie 2 when he dives to the ground in terror because Goku and Piccolo are about to fight. At least Movie 5 had him put up a decent fight against Sauza.

Vegeta got his ass kicked a lot too, often brutally, which is consistent with the series at least. Movie 8 having him turn coward felt wrong though. At least against Frieza he'd attempted to fight before falling into despair.

Goku himself fairs really well in both the movies and GT, winning fights left and right. It's funny to think he only kills a small handful of enemies in Z, while in the movies and GT he has a massive bodycount.

I felt Goku's presense kind of hindered other characters a bit (and made the timeline messed up for the film). Movie 6 could have been a Vegeta solo film, from when he went to space. Movie 8 could be just Vegeta and Trunks, as the Vegeta part of the story was way more interested than the Goku crying bit. To be fair Goku is the main character so I can see why had to put it in.

[Kenji]

The Toei writers had already admitted in interview why Goku is so prevalent on their own material: "When Goku's not around, the kids stop watching." Take that as you will.

[Koitsukai]

I find it refreshing to have a side continuity where Goku gets to shine and swiftly save the day vs the main continuity where he (or whoever is upfront) usually drops the ball, the clear win becomes not that clear, and teamwork is needed.

[Kenji]

I find it refreshing to have a side continuity where Goku gets to shine and swiftly save the day vs the main continuity where he (or whoever is upfront) usually drops the ball, the clear win becomes not that clear, and teamwork is needed.

Same. After Cell, Boo and Super, it's kind of refreshing having stories where bad things don't happen as a direct result of the protagonists being irresponsible battle-obsessed morons, it gets old and frustrating after a while.

[Koitsukai]

I find it refreshing to have a side continuity where Goku gets to shine and swiftly save the day vs the main continuity where he (or whoever is upfront) usually drops the ball, the clear win becomes not that clear, and teamwork is needed.

Same. After Cell, Boo and Super, it's kind of refreshing having stories where bad things don't happen as a direct result of the protagonists being irresponsible battle-obsessed morons, it gets old and frustrating after a while.

The one time I was pleaseantly surprised was in the Broly movie, I kept waiting for Gogeta to fuck it up somehow.
I'd say it became much more prominent in DBS, the Moro arc in particular. It is a never-ending attempt at extending the arc like I've never seen before.

I'll give props to Toyo, though, for coming up with villains with plot armor strong enough that the "fumble" isn't needed, like with Zamasu and Gas.

[JulieYBM]

Dragon Ball Super Episode #131 is probably the last time I was satisfied with a big, final fight's conclusion. I think the way that Tomioka and Ishitani managed to tie the character arcs of Jiren, #17, Freeza and Gokuu together like that was the best they could have while following the Toriyama outline without a ton of room to change things.

[Kid Buu]

The Toei writers had already admitted in interview why Goku is so prevalent on their own material: "When Goku's not around, the kids stop watching." Take that as you will.

I get that, he is the main character after all. That said, didn't Gohan and Piccolo get their own film a few years ago?

[JulieYBM]

The Toei writers had already admitted in interview why Goku is so prevalent on their own material: "When Goku's not around, the kids stop watching." Take that as you will.

I get that, he is the main character after all. That said, didn't Gohan and Piccolo get their own film a few years ago?

The quote is in reference to the older films from the original run. That being said, the modern films are also made with international films in mind, so I imagine Super Hero—the most recent film—was dedicated to appealing to the international fandom.

Although, I think the use of Piccolo was moreso Toriyama's idea and Gohan was a request from Iyoku Akio, the executive producer in charge of overseeing the franchise via Capsule Corp Tokyo.

[Kid Buu]

The quote is in reference to the older films from the original run. That being said, the modern films are also made with international films in mind, so I imagine Super Hero—the most recent film—was dedicated to appealing to the international fandom.

Although, I think the use of Piccolo was moreso Toriyama's idea and Gohan was a request from Iyoku Akio, the executive producer in charge of overseeing the franchise via Capsule Corp Tokyo.

Ah okay, that makes sense. This is my guess, but it does seem fans in English speaking countries are less keen on Goku. Well not that they dislike Goku, but because a lot of them only saw Z, they have more attachment to Vegeta or Gohan as a protagonist because a lot of Z does sideline Goku.

[JulieYBM]

The quote is in reference to the older films from the original run. That being said, the modern films are also made with international films in mind, so I imagine Super Hero—the most recent film—was dedicated to appealing to the international fandom.

Although, I think the use of Piccolo was moreso Toriyama's idea and Gohan was a request from Iyoku Akio, the executive producer in charge of overseeing the franchise via Capsule Corp Tokyo.

Ah okay, that makes sense. This is my guess, but it does seem fans in English speaking countries are less keen on Goku. Well not that they dislike Goku, but because a lot of them only saw Z, they have more attachment to Vegeta or Gohan as a protagonist because a lot of Z does sideline Goku.

I think it has a lot to do with both the repetitive focus on Vegeta and Gohan via the numerous reruns on Toonami of the Namek arc. I think it also has to do with a character like Vegeta and/or Piccolo not necessarily being like any of the characters in kids' cartoons of the time, either. That, combined with toxic masculinity, means that male fans will flock to Vegeta, Piccolo and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan because they're raised to view their behavior as the sort of behavior that they are supposed to idolize.

Gokuu is significantly more perceived as goofy, barring Super Saiyan 3/4 and some other moments.

[MasenkoHA]

Idk I really don’t think Gohan was that popular with the American fandom until the Cell Games and then fans got really disappointed when that expected promise of Gohan being the strongest ever didn’t deliver to the point the myth “Toriyama wanted Gohan to be the real hero but the Japanese fandom demanded it be Goku”’ persisted for years.

I think Goku is still popular and well liked by the American fandom but he’s like a very distant third behind Vegeta and Future Trunks. And I imagine Vegeta is popular the same way Shadow the Hedgehog, the Green Ranger, Wolverine, and Venom are popular. Kids like an antihero or at least a bad guy gone good. Future Trunks is just “cool” he’s got a sword, he dresses with more drip and style than the rest of the gang, he’s from an apocalyptic future and he’s tied to the series most popular arc with the Toonami fandom.

I’ve also noticed, and obvious generalization here, Vegeta and Future Trunks are popular with both male and female fans. Goku tends to be more popular with the male fandom than he is with the female fandom

[JulieYBM]

Idk I really don’t think Gohan was that popular with the American fandom until the Cell Games and then fans got really disappointed when that expected promise of Gohan being the strongest ever didn’t deliver to the point the myth “Toriyama wanted Gohan to be the real hero but the Japanese fandom demanded it be Goku”’ persisted for years.

I think Goku is still popular and well liked by the American fandom but he’s like a very distant third behind Vegeta and Future Trunks. And I imagine Vegeta is popular the same way Shadow the Hedgehog, the Green Ranger, Wolverine, and Venom are popular. Kids like an antihero or at least a bad guy gone good. Future Trunks is just “cool” he’s got a sword, he dresses with more drip and style than the rest of the gang, he’s from an apocalyptic future and he’s tied to the series most popular arc with the Toonami fandom.

I’ve also noticed, and obvious generalization here, Vegeta and Future Trunks are popular with both male and female fans. Goku tends to be more popular with the male fandom than he is with the female fandom

Super Saiyan 2 Gohan being the basis for the role that Gohan plays Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero is not a coincidence, for sure. This is obviously anecdotal evidence, but I do recall Gohan being more so popular 26-27 years ago, but I think that has more so to do with those 'cool' moments and the eventual Super Saiyan 2 than anything else.

Vegeta, Future Trunks and Piccolo were hugely popular back then, too, and remain so, near as I can tell. I'm kind of cold on them over all, although I do think Trunks is hot in those two movies where he has the long hair lol

[Kid Buu]

Idk I really don’t think Gohan was that popular with the American fandom until the Cell Games

The funny thing is having grown up with Z first, it felt to me like Gohan was the main character until the Android arc.

The Saiyan Saga had a lot of anime-exclusive episodes that focused on Gohan, and he played a major role in the final battle.

Namek basically felt like the Vegeta, Gohan and Krillin show. Yeah Goku showed up to save the day at the end but he felt more like a plot device than advancing the narrative.

Garlic Jr was Gohan's saga.

Then the Android and Cell arc happens, and it felt like Gohan was sidelined as he didn't do anything until the actual Cell Games.

Loved the Saiyaman arc which is probably my favourite Gohan era. Shame he spends the rest of the arc flopping.

[MasenkoHA]

Idk I really don’t think Gohan was that popular with the American fandom until the Cell Games

The funny thing is having grown up with Z first, it felt to me like Gohan was the main character until the Android arc.

The Saiyan Saga had a lot of anime-exclusive episodes that focused on Gohan, and he played a major role in the final battle.

Namek basically felt like the Vegeta, Gohan and Krillin show. Yeah Goku showed up to save the day at the end but he felt more like a plot device than advancing the narrative.

Garlic Jr was Gohan's saga.

Then the Android and Cell arc happens, and it felt like Gohan was sidelined as he didn't do anything until the actual Cell Games.

Loved the Saiyaman arc which is probably my favourite Gohan era. Shame he spends the rest of the arc flopping.

Honestly by the time I was actually paying attention to the show and not just using Dragon Ball Z for “nothing else is on and this show is kinda cool even though I don’t know what’s going on or who anyone is” was around the Goku and Frieza fight so I just kind of understood Goku was the main character. He was the one at the center of the group shot at the end of the theme, he was the one narrating the next time when the narrator wasn’t (Hey it’s me Goku!) he was the one facing off against the big bad mano y mano in a final battle. It was screaming main character energy so there was never any doubt in mind that this was Goku’s show. Gohan was just “the obligatory tagalong kid character” I came to expect from these shows at the time.

But maybe my perception would have been different first if I had actually followed Dragon Ball Z from day one (or close to it?). Gohan was way more prominent in the Saiyan saga than he was in Frieza but also Funimation had originally kind of downplayed his importance that Toei had hyped up? The first episode was cut down a lot so it went from a Gohan episode to more about Raditz the evil space invader, we lost the Robot-san story. The opening went from a heavy focus on Gohan to using a lot of Tree of Might footage to make the show seem more like an ensemble than it actually was.