GT treating the Z movies as having happened

[Kid Buu]

Idk I really don’t think Gohan was that popular with the American fandom until the Cell Games

The funny thing is having grown up with Z first, it felt to me like Gohan was the main character until the Android arc.

The Saiyan Saga had a lot of anime-exclusive episodes that focused on Gohan, and he played a major role in the final battle.

Namek basically felt like the Vegeta, Gohan and Krillin show. Yeah Goku showed up to save the day at the end but he felt more like a plot device than advancing the narrative.

Garlic Jr was Gohan's saga.

Then the Android and Cell arc happens, and it felt like Gohan was sidelined as he didn't do anything until the actual Cell Games.

Loved the Saiyaman arc which is probably my favourite Gohan era. Shame he spends the rest of the arc flopping.

Honestly by the time I was actually paying attention to the show and not just using Dragon Ball Z for “nothing else is on and this show is kinda cool even though I don’t know what’s going on or who anyone is” was around the Goku and Frieza fight so I just kind of understood Goku was the main character. He was the one at the center of the group shot at the end of the theme, he was the one narrating the next time when the narrator wasn’t (Hey it’s me Goku!) he was the one facing off against the big bad mano y mano in a final battle. It was screaming main character energy so there was never any doubt in mind that this was Goku’s show. Gohan was just “the obligatory tagalong kid character” I came to expect from these shows at the time.

But maybe my perception would have been different first if I had actually followed Dragon Ball Z from day one (or close to it?). Gohan was way more prominent in the Saiyan saga than he was in Frieza but also Funimation had originally kind of downplayed his importance that Toei had hyped up? The first episode was cut down a lot so it went from a Gohan episode to more about Raditz the evil space invader, we lost the Robot-san story. The opening went from a heavy focus on Gohan to using a lot of Tree of Might footage to make the show seem more like an ensemble than it actually was.

Yeah fair enough everyone exerpiences things differently, especially when you're a kid. I still think most people in English speaking countries saw Z first, so they probably still feel a bit more attached to Gohan than someone in Japan who probably grew up with DB first.

[WittyUsername]

For all the flack that some people like to give Toei for supposedly sidelining Gohan while propping up Goku, they were the ones who had the openings and endings for DBZ heavily focus on Gohan, in addition to including a ton of filler that heavily focuses on him. They also didn’t seem to have any problem making him the hero of the post-Cell movies. Movie 9 is definitively Gohan’s movie and Movie 10 has him share the spotlight with Goten and Trunks.

[JulieYBM]

They wanted to name the second series Dragon Ball: Gohan no Dai-Bouken, after all. The production staff clearly viewed Gohan as the new lead character.

[MasenkoHA]

The funny thing is having grown up with Z first, it felt to me like Gohan was the main character until the Android arc.

The Saiyan Saga had a lot of anime-exclusive episodes that focused on Gohan, and he played a major role in the final battle.

Namek basically felt like the Vegeta, Gohan and Krillin show. Yeah Goku showed up to save the day at the end but he felt more like a plot device than advancing the narrative.

Garlic Jr was Gohan's saga.

Then the Android and Cell arc happens, and it felt like Gohan was sidelined as he didn't do anything until the actual Cell Games.

Loved the Saiyaman arc which is probably my favourite Gohan era. Shame he spends the rest of the arc flopping.

Honestly by the time I was actually paying attention to the show and not just using Dragon Ball Z for “nothing else is on and this show is kinda cool even though I don’t know what’s going on or who anyone is” was around the Goku and Frieza fight so I just kind of understood Goku was the main character. He was the one at the center of the group shot at the end of the theme, he was the one narrating the next time when the narrator wasn’t (Hey it’s me Goku!) he was the one facing off against the big bad mano y mano in a final battle. It was screaming main character energy so there was never any doubt in mind that this was Goku’s show. Gohan was just “the obligatory tagalong kid character” I came to expect from these shows at the time.

But maybe my perception would have been different first if I had actually followed Dragon Ball Z from day one (or close to it?). Gohan was way more prominent in the Saiyan saga than he was in Frieza but also Funimation had originally kind of downplayed his importance that Toei had hyped up? The first episode was cut down a lot so it went from a Gohan episode to more about Raditz the evil space invader, we lost the Robot-san story. The opening went from a heavy focus on Gohan to using a lot of Tree of Might footage to make the show seem more like an ensemble than it actually was.

Yeah fair enough everyone exerpiences things differently, especially when you're a kid. I still think most people in English speaking countries saw Z first, so they probably still feel a bit more attached to Gohan than someone in Japan who probably grew up with DB first.

Yeah, I’m sure a big reason the original Dragon Ball didn’t perform as well as even GT was because it lacked Vegeta and Gohan and the concept of Saiyans and Super Saiyans so a lot of kids weren’t interested. It doesn’t help the first arc is honestly the least interesting arc until the Black Star saga in GT (that Funimation and Cartoon Network initially skipped anyways)

For all the flack that some people like to give Toei for supposedly sidelininge Gohan while propping up Goku, they were the ones who had the openings and endings for DBZ heavily focus on Gohan, in addition to including a ton of filler that heavily focuses on him. They also didn’t seem to have any problem making him the hero of the post-Cell movies. Movie 9 is definitively Gohan’s movie and Movie 10 has him share the spotlight with Goten and Trunks.

Wait, is that a thing people complain about?


I would argue it was literally the opposite. Long before Toriyama even considered making Gohan the lead Toei was going out of their way to prop up Gohan as the star of the show. He’s heavily featured in Head Cha La. He is the undisputed star of Zenkai Power. The first episode is all about him (compare the manga where he’s just introduced accompanying Goku to Kame House) . He gets his own songs in the first two Z movies, the Saiyan saga filler heavily features him. He headlines the Garlic Jr arc. As Julie pointed out Toei wanted to name it Dragon Ball:Gohan’s Big Adventure.


I maintain the “Gohan was supposed to be the main character of Dragon Ball Z” mentality comes entirely from Toei positioning him up as such. Because when you read the manga…Gohan is barely more than a prop for Piccolo’s development in the Saiyan arc and matters even less afterwards until around the time he trains with Goku in the Room of Spirit and Time

[Kid Buu]

Honestly by the time I was actually paying attention to the show and not just using Dragon Ball Z for “nothing else is on and this show is kinda cool even though I don’t know what’s going on or who anyone is” was around the Goku and Frieza fight so I just kind of understood Goku was the main character. He was the one at the center of the group shot at the end of the theme, he was the one narrating the next time when the narrator wasn’t (Hey it’s me Goku!) he was the one facing off against the big bad mano y mano in a final battle. It was screaming main character energy so there was never any doubt in mind that this was Goku’s show. Gohan was just “the obligatory tagalong kid character” I came to expect from these shows at the time.

But maybe my perception would have been different first if I had actually followed Dragon Ball Z from day one (or close to it?). Gohan was way more prominent in the Saiyan saga than he was in Frieza but also Funimation had originally kind of downplayed his importance that Toei had hyped up? The first episode was cut down a lot so it went from a Gohan episode to more about Raditz the evil space invader, we lost the Robot-san story. The opening went from a heavy focus on Gohan to using a lot of Tree of Might footage to make the show seem more like an ensemble than it actually was.

Yeah fair enough everyone exerpiences things differently, especially when you're a kid. I still think most people in English speaking countries saw Z first, so they probably still feel a bit more attached to Gohan than someone in Japan who probably grew up with DB first.

Yeah, I’m sure a big reason the original Dragon Ball didn’t perform as well as even GT was because it lacked Vegeta and Gohan and the concept of Saiyans and Super Saiyans so a lot of kids weren’t interested. It doesn’t help the first arc is honestly the least interesting arc until the Black Star saga in GT (that Funimation and Cartoon Network initially skipped anyways)

Yeah, honestly from the DB fans I've met offline pretty much all of them were more into GT than the original DB. I know that's definitely not a popular opinion on this forum though.

[Kenji]

The Toei writers had already admitted in interview why Goku is so prevalent on their own material: "When Goku's not around, the kids stop watching." Take that as you will.

I get that, he is the main character after all. That said, didn't Gohan and Piccolo get their own film a few years ago?

I'm not sure how the discussion came to this point, but this quote was actually about GT's production xD

No, it was a natural shift rather than a sudden change in course. When Goku’s not the main character, the story gets out of hand, or perhaps I should say it becomes unstable. After roughly 500 TV episodes and over 15 movies worth of Dragon Ball, I can tell that Goku is no ordinary character. For instance, back with Dragon Ball Z when there were episodes with characters other than Goku fighting, even if the ratings didn’t suffer, younger viewers lost interest. Adults watch for the story, so they can still enjoy watching how things play out even if Goku doesn’t appear, but children watch for the characters. So you have to have Goku appear. That’s why with Dragon Ball Z, when Goku didn’t appear for a while in the original manga, we thought long and hard about how to have him show up in the anime (laughs).

Source: https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/

Obviously, this applies only to the original run of the anime adaptation in the 90s.
It explains why Goku is so prevalent in Toei's material. No Goku = No Ratings.

[Kid Buu]

The Toei writers had already admitted in interview why Goku is so prevalent on their own material: "When Goku's not around, the kids stop watching." Take that as you will.

I get that, he is the main character after all. That said, didn't Gohan and Piccolo get their own film a few years ago?

I'm not sure how the discussion came to this point, but this quote was actually about GT's production xD

No, it was a natural shift rather than a sudden change in course. When Goku’s not the main character, the story gets out of hand, or perhaps I should say it becomes unstable. After roughly 500 TV episodes and over 15 movies worth of Dragon Ball, I can tell that Goku is no ordinary character. For instance, back with Dragon Ball Z when there were episodes with characters other than Goku fighting, even if the ratings didn’t suffer, younger viewers lost interest. Adults watch for the story, so they can still enjoy watching how things play out even if Goku doesn’t appear, but children watch for the characters. So you have to have Goku appear. That’s why with Dragon Ball Z, when Goku didn’t appear for a while in the original manga, we thought long and hard about how to have him show up in the anime (laughs).

Source: https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/

Obviously, this applies only to the original run of the anime adaptation in the 90s.
It explains why Goku is so prevalent in Toei's material. No Goku = No Ratings.

I see.

To be honest, I rewatched GT recently and I know it gets flack for being "Goku Time" but it didn't really bother me this time around. Honestly, the end of Z either retires characters from fighting (Gohan, Goten) or they're just simply outclassed (Vegeta, Piccolo), so it made sense the series was so Goku-centric. I guess the big elephant in the room was Uub, but I actually enjoyed his role in the Baby arc. Also I enjoyed the Goku - Pan - Trunks trio early on.

[Kenji]

The "Goku Time" complaints really confuse me.

The first 22 episodes of the show are entirely focused on Pan and Giru's relationship.
The episodes following that focused on the Saiyans' problematic past and how revenge turns you into a monster.
And the episodes following that focused on how your actions have consequences and how you should work hard to make your dreams come true rather than rely on easy fix magic.

For a large chunk of GT's story, Goku just tags along as "the hero guy who punches strong dudes" (much as he did in the very first arc of the manga) while the actual story is largely moved by Pan, Giru, Trunks, Dr. Myuu, Baby, #17/#18 and the Dragon Balls.

If by "Goku Time", fans mean Goku is the only character who is allowed to seem competent during fight scenes, well...
- Lood was defeated by teamwork and strategy between Goku, Pan, the Para Para Brothers and the entire Lood Cult.
- Rilld was never even defeated the first round (deliberately so because of Trunks' plan), and the second round had him defeated by the trio's combined efforts.
- Baby was defeated not by SSJ4 alone, but by everyone's combined efforts (Old Kaioshin's training, Oob's plan, Shin curing Baby's victims, Saiyans giving their energy to Goku)
- Super 17 was defeated by a combined effort between Goku and #18, and the point was that brute strength (a strategy adopted by EVERYONE, including SSJ4 Goku) was the wrong way to go.
- One Star Dragon was defeated by the entire universe's energy combined, a large chunk of which was all thanks to Pan, because she was the one forcing Goku and Trunks to stop by and save the planets rather than just be indifferent about their suffering.

Don't get me wrong, Goku does have privileged screen-time and competency, the producers admitted as much.
But to claim that everyone except Goku has no story relevance or impact is just outright false.

[MasenkoHA]

Goku Time complaints confused me because I mean…it’s his show. Other characters go in and out of importance but other than, debatably sharing co-lead status with Bulma in the very first arc and temporarily having Gohan take over for a single arc, it’s been Goku Time. I’m sure more people seeing Z than original Dragon Ball or reading the manga has a lot to do with the weird perception that it’s some sort of ensemble show.

I can understand the frustration with the cocktease of Dragon Ball:The Next Generation that the Buu saga teased and then backtracked hard on but GT really was just a return to form and it never pretended to be anything else

[JulieYBM]

Goku Time complaints confused me because I mean…it’s his show. Other characters go in and out of importance but other than, debatably sharing co-lead status with Bulma in the very first arc and temporarily having Gohan take over for a single arc, it’s been Goku Time. I’m sure more people seeing Z than original Dragon Ball or reading the manga has a lot to do with the weird perception that it’s some sort of ensemble show.

I can understand the frustration with the cocktease of Dragon Ball:The Next Generation that the Buu saga teased and then backtracked hard on but GT really was just a return to form and it never pretended to be anything else

The Goku Time thing reminds me of how people talk about Dragon Ball being more adventure-based and relying more on the other cast. Like...not especially? There's no real adventure after the first arc, and that's a comparatively 'short' thirteen episodes/twenty-three chapters.

[MasenkoHA]

Goku Time complaints confused me because I mean…it’s his show. Other characters go in and out of importance but other than, debatably sharing co-lead status with Bulma in the very first arc and temporarily having Gohan take over for a single arc, it’s been Goku Time. I’m sure more people seeing Z than original Dragon Ball or reading the manga has a lot to do with the weird perception that it’s some sort of ensemble show.

I can understand the frustration with the cocktease of Dragon Ball:The Next Generation that the Buu saga teased and then backtracked hard on but GT really was just a return to form and it never pretended to be anything else

The Goku Time thing reminds me of how people talk about Dragon Ball being more adventure-based and relying more on the other cast. Like...not especially? There's no real adventure after the first arc, and that's a comparatively 'short' thirteen episodes/twenty-three chapters.

Yeah there’s a weird glorification of original Dragon Ball to being “more about adventure than power levels “ and “the rest of the cast mattered” and I think a lot of that is colored by seeing Z first. If we’re being especially generous about an 1/3 of original Dragon Ball is adventure (the first arc and Red Ribbon but even Red Ribbon ends with fight against assassin, a storming the base by Goku and a universal monster movie tournament ) but the rest is just as action focused as Z.

And the perceived importance of the other characters is just…they had already been demoted long before Z anyways. Bulma, Yamucha, and Oolong were never as relevant again after the first arc. With the maybe exception of the Namek arc for Kuririn, he and Kame Sennin were never as important after the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai, Tenshinhan was only central in his own arc. They all got demoted well before the Saiyan arc. They weren’t key characters just up until Raditz arrived

[Kenji]

I feel when people talk about how the original Dragon Ball was more adventure-focused was because it had a large range of diversified settings. From the Paozu Mountains, to deserts, to those mushroom lands, to Kame House, the surrounding islands, Papaya Island, forests, desert towns, snow towns, West City, Pirate Caves, Penguin Village- Okay, you get the point.

In stark contrast, Dragon Ball Z and the material that came later are relegated to mostly desolate wastelands and boring recreations of modern world cities, when the world of the original Dragon Ball used to be much more creative, diversified and inventive than that. Sometimes, while watching Dragon Ball Z, Super and GT, I get the feeling that the world of Dragon Ball starts and ends at West City/Satan City.

That said, the "adventure" aspect was still there in Z. And other than the first arc and Red Ribbon, it wasn't all that prevalent in the original. Characters go to space, cyborgs go on truck road trips, characters time travel and go into a room where time and space don't matter, they meet new gods, get acquainted with the afterlife, learn teleportation skills... I don't know about you, but all of that screams "adventure" for me.

[JulieYBM]

Goku Time complaints confused me because I mean…it’s his show. Other characters go in and out of importance but other than, debatably sharing co-lead status with Bulma in the very first arc and temporarily having Gohan take over for a single arc, it’s been Goku Time. I’m sure more people seeing Z than original Dragon Ball or reading the manga has a lot to do with the weird perception that it’s some sort of ensemble show.

I can understand the frustration with the cocktease of Dragon Ball:The Next Generation that the Buu saga teased and then backtracked hard on but GT really was just a return to form and it never pretended to be anything else

The Goku Time thing reminds me of how people talk about Dragon Ball being more adventure-based and relying more on the other cast. Like...not especially? There's no real adventure after the first arc, and that's a comparatively 'short' thirteen episodes/twenty-three chapters.

Yeah there’s a weird glorification of original Dragon Ball to being “more about adventure than power levels “ and “the rest of the cast mattered” and I think a lot of that is colored by seeing Z first. If we’re being especially generous about an 1/3 of original Dragon Ball is adventure (the first arc and Red Ribbon but even Red Ribbon ends with fight against assassin, a storming the base by Goku and a universal monster movie tournament ) but the rest is just as action focused as Z.

And the perceived importance of the other characters is just…they had already been demoted long before Z anyways. Bulma, Yamucha, and Oolong were never as relevant again after the first arc. With the maybe exception of the Namek arc for Kuririn, he and Kame Sennin were never as important after the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai, Tenshinhan was only central in his own arc. They all got demoted well before the Saiyan arc. They weren’t key characters just up until Raditz arrived

The Red Ribbon Army arc doesn't even really feel like an adventure arc. Gokuu fights a guy then drives over to a new local and fights a guy. The General Blue stuff is the closest to that formula really breaking. Even then, the arc is 90% Gokuu Fights a Guy.

[MasenkoHA]

The Goku Time thing reminds me of how people talk about Dragon Ball being more adventure-based and relying more on the other cast. Like...not especially? There's no real adventure after the first arc, and that's a comparatively 'short' thirteen episodes/twenty-three chapters.

Yeah there’s a weird glorification of original Dragon Ball to being “more about adventure than power levels “ and “the rest of the cast mattered” and I think a lot of that is colored by seeing Z first. If we’re being especially generous about an 1/3 of original Dragon Ball is adventure (the first arc and Red Ribbon but even Red Ribbon ends with fight against assassin, a storming the base by Goku and a universal monster movie tournament ) but the rest is just as action focused as Z.

And the perceived importance of the other characters is just…they had already been demoted long before Z anyways. Bulma, Yamucha, and Oolong were never as relevant again after the first arc. With the maybe exception of the Namek arc for Kuririn, he and Kame Sennin were never as important after the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai, Tenshinhan was only central in his own arc. They all got demoted well before the Saiyan arc. They weren’t key characters just up until Raditz arrived

The Red Ribbon Army arc doesn't even really feel like an adventure arc. Gokuu fights a guy then drives over to a new local and fights a guy. The General Blue stuff is the closest to that formula really breaking. Even then, the arc is 90% Gokuu Fights a Guy.

That’s a good point. It really is just pirate cave and kinda the visit to Penguin Village. Otherwise it’s just different battle locals, be it Muscle Tower, The Land of Karin, or the Red Ribbon base.

[Zebra]

The "Goku Time" complaints really confuse me.

The first 22 episodes of the show are entirely focused on Pan and Giru's relationship.

That's an exaggeration when Giru isn't introduced until episode 3, and even then, his relationship with Pan isn't explored much beyond Pan nagging him and Giru having a crush on her.

For a large chunk of GT's story, Goku just tags along as "the hero guy who punches strong dudes" (much as he did in the very first arc of the manga) while the actual story is largely moved by Pan, Giru, Trunks, Dr. Myuu, Baby, #17/#18 and the Dragon Balls.

The show is pretty squarely Gokuu Time once Gokuu returns to Earth. Most of the previous episodes are skipped for being boring.

- Baby was defeated not by SSJ4 alone, but by everyone's combined efforts (Old Kaioshin's training, Oob's plan, Shin curing Baby's victims, Saiyans giving their energy to Goku)

In the end, it came down to SS4 Gokuu; everyone else just had a supporting role. Elder Kaioushin's role was to help Gokuu get stronger. Kibitoshin's role was to cure the brainwashed Saiyans, whose role was to restore Gokuu to full power. Oob's role was to buy time for Gokuu to gather energy from the others. Everything revolves around Gokuu
because everyone else was too weak.

- Super 17 was defeated by a combined effort between Goku and #18, and the point was that brute strength (a strategy adopted by EVERYONE, including SSJ4 Goku) was the wrong way to go.

Brute strength was the way to go; SS4 Gokuu could've easily killed Super Seventeen by punching his head off, but he made him stronger by filling him with Ki blasts instead because the plot demanded he be an idiot.

Although Eighteen helped out, it still came down to Gokuu delivering the final blow as always. Eighteen popping up right at the end of the arc after being easily defeated a few episodes earlier doesn't show much relevance on her part; ultimately, she didn't appear much throughout the Super Seventeen arc.

- One Star Dragon was defeated by the entire universe's energy combined, a large chunk of which was all thanks to Pan, because she was the one forcing Goku and Trunks to stop by and save the planets rather than just be indifferent about their suffering.

It was really just due to Gokuu's unexplained asspull power-up that made him invincible.

You're overstating Pan's importance when she was a damsel-in-distress for much of the show. She didn't have any role during the Universal Genkidama scene at all.

[WittyUsername]

When it comes to the “Goku Time” complaint with GT, that’s obviously referring to the fact that Goku is more or less the only character who the show doesn’t treat as useless fodder when it comes to the fighting. For fans of characters like Gohan and Vegeta, it probably can be a bummer that they get sidelined like they do, especially Gohan. It doesn’t help that Trunks, who was initially one of the main characters of the show, quickly gets shoved into the background once they return to Earth.

Mind you, when it comes to character moments, I actually would say that other characters do get their moments to shine. Pan has her whole story involving her friendship with Giru and her sadness at how Baby turned her family against her, Trunks is the one who uncovers Baby’s existence, Gohan has that scene where Piccolo says goodbye to him, Vegeta gets a whole episode where he reflects on his rivalry with Goku, etc. They just don’t get to look cool in a fight like Goku does.

[Scsigs]

The "Goku Time" complaints really confuse me.

Spoiler:

The first 22 episodes of the show are entirely focused on Pan and Giru's relationship.
The episodes following that focused on the Saiyans' problematic past and how revenge turns you into a monster.
And the episodes following that focused on how your actions have consequences and how you should work hard to make your dreams come true rather than rely on easy fix magic.

For a large chunk of GT's story, Goku just tags along as "the hero guy who punches strong dudes" (much as he did in the very first arc of the manga) while the actual story is largely moved by Pan, Giru, Trunks, Dr. Myuu, Baby, #17/#18 and the Dragon Balls.

If by "Goku Time", fans mean Goku is the only character who is allowed to seem competent during fight scenes, well...
- Lood was defeated by teamwork and strategy between Goku, Pan, the Para Para Brothers and the entire Lood Cult.
- Rilld was never even defeated the first round (deliberately so because of Trunks' plan), and the second round had him defeated by the trio's combined efforts.
- Baby was defeated not by SSJ4 alone, but by everyone's combined efforts (Old Kaioshin's training, Oob's plan, Shin curing Baby's victims, Saiyans giving their energy to Goku)
- Super 17 was defeated by a combined effort between Goku and #18, and the point was that brute strength (a strategy adopted by EVERYONE, including SSJ4 Goku) was the wrong way to go.
- One Star Dragon was defeated by the entire universe's energy combined, a large chunk of which was all thanks to Pan, because she was the one forcing Goku and Trunks to stop by and save the planets rather than just be indifferent about their suffering.

Don't get me wrong, Goku does have privileged screen-time and competency, the producers admitted as much.
But to claim that everyone except Goku has no story relevance or impact is just outright false.

I don't think people complain about that at the start of the series, considering the trio all get things to do in most of them & there's a reason that only Goku & Pan are the only ones to do anything during Baby.

What they generally mean is that the series devolves into no one else but Pan or Goku being around to do anything about the current problem/threat & Goku's the only one powerful enough to actually deal with it. In the manga & the other 2 shows & movies before GT, you have an ensemble of characters with several that all at least did something during the problems. Even if they failed doing so, it wasn't all Goku doing shit. What makes it worse is that a lot of what Goku ends up doing is powering up to SS4 & firing Kamehamehas, despite being more proficient in martial arts & having more attacks in his arsenal than that. A lot of the action in GT gets really boring really fast in the second half because of that. Pan more often than not either ends up incapacitated or a damsel in distress who does nothing but whine which gets really old really fast. Hell, even when they bring in Vegeta, he doesn't do anything that matters. They even had the perfect opportunity & set-up to have Goten & Trunks fuse to Gotenks & Gohan to show his stuff rather than them & Pan just transferring their energy to Goku when he needs it if anything just to give Goku & Vegeta back-up against Omega Shenron. You can still have him defeated the same way, but just make beforehand more interesting & make it a team effort. Hell, Uub fused with Buu, but never has a moment to shine outside of what he did to get into Baby's stomach & distract him with stomach pain despite being Goku's pupil for 5 years & Kid Buu's reincarnation.

[Kenji]

The show is pretty squarely Gokuu Time once Gokuu returns to Earth. Most of the previous episodes are skipped for being boring.

I'm sorry to be a bit blunt here, but this sounds a bit hypocritical.
The show is "Goku Time" because it doesn't focus on other characters, and then it's "boring" and "worthy to skip" when it does?

In the end, it came down to SS4 Gokuu; everyone else just had a supporting role. Elder Kaioushin's role was to help Gokuu get stronger. Kibitoshin's role was to cure the brainwashed Saiyans, whose role was to restore Gokuu to full power. Oob's role was to buy time for Gokuu to gather energy from the others. Everything revolves around Gokuu because everyone else was too weak.

And everyone else's role during Namek was getting their asses kicked waiting for Goku to arrive to deal with Vegeta/the Ginyu Force, and then it became everyone else getting their asses kicked waiting for Goku to heal in a tube. And then it became everyone else dying so Goku could become stronger out of anger.

It's almost like he's the protagonist of the story or something, and everyone else was a supporting role all along to make him stronger, even before GT started.

Brute strength was the way to go; SS4 Gokuu could've easily killed Super Seventeen by punching his head off, but he made him stronger by filling him with Ki blasts instead because the plot demanded he be an idiot.

Every single character did exactly just that, together, multiple times.
It had no effect.

And I do believe (if my mind isn't playing tricks on me), Goku as SSJ4 did try to use teleportation to get close to him and kick his head off, but he was too fast and Goku could barely see his movements (Dragon Ball recurring gag, I know).

Brute strength was not the way to go, Super 17 had to be in a very specific vulnerable pose to be attacked in order to be defeated, something Goku only realized because 18 showed up and helped him out.

It was really just due to Gokuu's unexplained asspull power-up that made him invincible. You're overstating Pan's importance when she was a damsel-in-distress for much of the show. She didn't have any role during the Universal Genkidama scene at all.

My brother in Christ, were you paying any attention to the show's text?

Pan is quite clearly set up to be the character constantly questioning the ethics of leaving people to their suffering because of Goku and Trunks' "Eh, not my problem" attitude. She's also the one going out of her way to rally the people against their oppressors. That boy in the wheelchair? He wouldn't even be alive to give his energy at all if Pan didn't stop the others to save him.

This is not an exaggeration, this is exactly how the first arc, her character and her entire role in their "Grand Tour" was written to be.
The Universal Genki Dama worked because Pan had such a role in the "Grand Tour" arc.
Or do you honestly believe that without Mr. Satan, Goku would've been able to defeat Majin Boo?

Yes, Pan is a non-combatant, admittedly so by the producers' own words.
But you're reducing her entire character and her role in the story to her fighting prowess, which is not much better.

[Kid Buu]

Yeah that 10x Kamehameha on Super 17 is definitely a controversial scene. I just kind of chalked it up to Goku trying to pull a Yakon on him.

Goku Time complaints confused me because I mean…it’s his show. Other characters go in and out of importance but other than, debatably sharing co-lead status with Bulma in the very first arc and temporarily having Gohan take over for a single arc, it’s been Goku Time. I’m sure more people seeing Z than original Dragon Ball or reading the manga has a lot to do with the weird perception that it’s some sort of ensemble show.

I can understand the frustration with the cocktease of Dragon Ball:The Next Generation that the Buu saga teased and then backtracked hard on but GT really was just a return to form and it never pretended to be anything else

The Goku Time thing reminds me of how people talk about Dragon Ball being more adventure-based and relying more on the other cast. Like...not especially? There's no real adventure after the first arc, and that's a comparatively 'short' thirteen episodes/twenty-three chapters.

Yeah honestly, only the first arc felt like an ensemble cast and adventure story. Literally half of Dragon Ball is just tournaments, with Krillin and Yamcha being used as measuring sticks.

[Kenji]

I always took the 10x Kamehameha against Super 17 for what the text was implying:
"This was my strongest attack. If it had no effect on him.. Well, I'm fucked!"

From that, I can assume that physical attacks like kicking and punching would have no effect either.
(As demonstrated by the combined assault of Vegeta, Goten, Trunks and Oob against him)

It would've been good to see that reflected within the animation, as well as more straight-up martial arts than just energy blasts.
But you know GT: "Good ideas, bad execution."