GT treating the Z movies as having happened

[Kenji]

Also:
"Dragon Ball is a work without substance, Torishima said as much."

Torishima is not the ultimate authority over Dragon Ball, and at one point, he wanted Goku and Bulma to hook up. He's also the one who kept pressuring Toriyama to change villains twice in the same arc, saying #17 and #18 weren't good villains because they look like generic punks, which personally, I completely disagree with. They were wonderfully competent and likable antagonists, the animated Trunks Special shows that in incredible detail, and I vastly prefer them over boring-ass Cell. Torishima's influence cannot be understated, he was a very important person during Dragon Ball's run, but we're not supposed to agree with every little thing he says.

Torishima's claim that Dragon Ball is a work without substance is simply not true. There are several wonderful messages in it Toriyama wanted to impart to his readers, it's a work that actually has things to say to the world, messages that have resonated with a lot of people, despite its more problematic elements and what the "I just want cool fights and nothing else" crowd has to say about it. And it's incredibly disrespectful of him and you to reduce this work of art to an intellectually empty show where it's just guys punching each other. If that was the case, Dragon Ball would've already been long forgotten and disregarded like the much-maligned filler episodes that feature just that.

[Scsigs]

Digressing a bit from the main convo:

I think the thing with Pan's date from the first episode was meant to be explored at some point, but got thrown out the window as soon as the producers saw that GT wasn't going to get better ratings and the show pivoted to more Z-like adventures.

The pivot wasn't because of ratings. It was because the writers said to themselves that the stories they were coming up with weren't very interesting, so they changed their game plan.

[JulieYBM]

Pan is a co-lead of Dragon Ball GT and her character being underserviced is worthy of being criticized.

Not really a co-lead. Gokuu's the star and everyone else is just his cheerleader.

Pan is front-and-center in the marketing of the series, the Opening animation, and features in numerous episodes as a character that pushes the plot forward. She is absolutely a co-lead and the fact that she is poorly written is something to criticize.

It goes without saying that a series created by a self-proclaimed pervert who drew a comic where a woman gets raped for laughs won't depict women in the best light.

Doesn't make it right, but it'd be better to just watch a series that actually stars women than demand Dragon Ball treat women better. By the time GT rolled around, it was too late to expect the franchise to suddenly do women justice.

Dragon Ball is a series aimed at kids, it should be criticized for its shitty depictions of girls and women so that it improves. We've seen improvements with characters like Caulifla and Kale and those improvements should be built upon. The fact that you would rather mansplain to a woman being critical of the way that people like her are depicted in media than just agree is really telling.

They don't appear at all after the Tournament of Power. And they were always minor characters.

Caulifla and Kale have character arcs built up over the course of a year-long story arc and culminate in their characters growing both as fighters and their interpersonal relationship. Whether those characters have yet to appear again is irrelevant, because they still serve as a baseline example of how to improve the series' depiction of female characters.

Kale is just a gender-bent knockoff of Broly and Caulifla is an accessory to her.

No, Kale is not a knock-off of Broly. Her character arc of growth is nothing like the Broly character depicted before she was introduced in Dragon Ball Super.

Digressing a bit from the main convo:

I think the thing with Pan's date from the first episode was meant to be explored at some point, but got thrown out the window as soon as the producers saw that GT wasn't going to get better ratings and the show pivoted to more Z-like adventures.

The pivot wasn't because of ratings. It was because the writers said to themselves that the stories they were coming up with weren't very interesting, so they changed their game plan.

Planning out the series would be done six months in advance. They already decided to change the type of series that Dragon Ball GT was before the series would have aired for very long.

[Kenji]

Digressing a bit from the main convo:

I think the thing with Pan's date from the first episode was meant to be explored at some point, but got thrown out the window as soon as the producers saw that GT wasn't going to get better ratings and the show pivoted to more Z-like adventures.

The pivot wasn't because of ratings. It was because the writers said to themselves that the stories they were coming up with weren't very interesting, so they changed their game plan.

Either way, it's a shame, as I would've loved to see a more female-centered concept explored further.
It would be different and not what the audience expects out of Dragon Ball, for sure, but at least it would've been something the franchise usually doesn't experiment with.

[WittyUsername]

Pan going out on dates was always really weird. I don’t think dating is really a thing 9-year-olds do. It’s easy to see why people have often confused GT as taking place 10 years after DBZ, because that’s something that would’ve made a lot more sense if she was 14, even though she certainly doesn’t look 14.

Anyway, it seems like this thread has gotten a bit off-topic.

[Zebra]

Pan is front-and-center in the marketing of the series, the Opening animation, and features in numerous episodes as a character that pushes the plot forward.

She's just a glorified side character and cheerleader. The opening and promo art might trick you into thinking Trunks and Pan are co-protags, but it's really just Gokuu.

Dragon Ball is a series aimed at kids

Mainly young boys. They're not really interested in seeing strong female characters.

The fact that you would rather mansplain to a woman being critical of the way that people like her are depicted in media than just agree is really telling.

Not sure what you mean by "mansplain", but my point is that you're looking at the wrong franchise if you want Dragon Ball to depict women in a better light. It's more sensible to just watch another series, one that actually stars strong female characters. Dragon Ball is a lost cause when it comes to decent female representation.

Caulifla and Kale have character arcs built up over the course of a year-long story arc and culminate in their characters growing both as fighters and their interpersonal relationship.

It's not like they appeared over the course of a year.

Whatever character arc they had was exclusive to the anime, or in other words, filler. It wasn't an important plot point at all. Just a subplot that wasn't even in the manga.

Whether those characters have yet to appear again is irrelevant, because they still serve as a baseline example of how to improve the series' depiction of female characters.

This isn't the first time we've had a strong female character appear only to be sidelined or written off shortly after. Eighteen memorably stomped SS1 Vegeeta in her debut, but she gets absorbed by Cell and eventually turned into Kurilin's trophy housewife.

There's no real improvement when the franchise has always refused to consistently make use of female fighters instead of dropping them after one arc.

No, Kale is not a knock-off of Broly. Her character arc of growth is nothing like the Broly character depicted before she was introduced in Dragon Ball Super.

She is definitely a knockoff of Broly. She was conceived as exactly that; to leech off of his sheer popularity. Her Berserk form is a dead ringer for Broly's Legendary Super Saiyan form, and Toei shamelessly homaged so many scenes from the first Broly movie.

This isn't to say that she doesn't have her own personality traits, but she mainly exists just to remind us all of Broly.

If you want to make a good female character, you should start by not conceiving her as a knockoff of a male character. On top of which, Kale was nothing more than a side antagonist in the only arc she appeared in.

[GurixDr34]

The Movies that are completely Canon with GT for me are Fusion Reborn the Cooler movies Dragon Fist Goku use the Dragon Fist attack in GT Bojack Unbound because villains from that movie appear in Fusion Reborn and the first Bardock Movie from the 90s Bardock the Father of Goku should also be Canon with GT because its referenced in the first Cooler Movie for me all the resurrected villains that appear in Fusion Reborn and in the Super 17 saga of GT are Canon with GT i would personally also add the first Broly Movie from the 90s but this is just a personal opinion for me Dragon Ball has two continuities in the Anime the Toei Universe from the 90s the Original Dragon Ball Dragon Ball Z with all the filler and GT with some Movies Kai would be a Reboot of the Anime this New Timeline would go like this Original Dragon Ball without filler Kai Daima and Super

[Hellspawn28]

I think they should have done a Coola retelling in GT. Like have him be a villain in the Black Star Dragon Ball arc with him wanting the dragon balls for himself. Or retell DBZ Movie 6 with the Big Gete Star being a creation of Dr. Myu.

He created Broly and he's the reason he was used for three films. I don't know why he wasn't used again in GT.

He didn't work on GT. If he did, we would probably have Broly escape out of Hell in the Super 17 or a retelling of DBZ Movie 8. The GT Perfect Files mentions the original Saiyan home planet still being a thing.

[JulieYBM]

I think they should have done a Coola retelling in GT. Like have him be a villain in the Black Star Dragon Ball arc with him wanting the dragon balls for himself. Or retell DBZ Movie 6 with the Big Gete Star being a creation of Dr. Myu.

He created Broly and he's the reason he was used for three films. I don't know why he wasn't used again in GT.

He didn't work on GT. If he did, we would probably have Broly escape out of Hell in the Super 17 or a retelling of DBZ Movie 8. The GT Perfect Files mentions the original Saiyan home planet still being a thing.

That didn't stop anyone else from including other movie antagonists in Dragon Ball GT, though, so my point of it was clearly just a creative decision from the staff to not include Broly still stands.

Tossing Broly in for funsies would have been interesting, but I also just wish the entire arc in general had been properly written like an actual story with more character arcs.

[WittyUsername]

The only movie antagonist we even see in GT is Cooler and it’s a cameo where he doesn’t speak and none of the characters acknowledge him. I don’t think anyone involved, whether it was the writers, the director, or the animators, was thinking too hard about it. They needed a shot where we see a bunch of familiar villains flying through the sky after escaping from Hell and one of them just happened to be a movie character.

[Hellspawn28]

The only movie antagonist we even see in GT is Cooler and it’s a cameo where he doesn’t speak and none of the characters acknowledge him. I don’t think anyone involved, whether it was the writers, the director, or the animators, was thinking too hard about it. They needed a shot where we see a bunch of familiar villains flying through the sky after escaping from Hell and one of them just happened to be a movie character.

It's fan service that the animators added. I think sometimes people take fan service nods or references too seriously.

[Scsigs]

The Movies that are completely Canon with GT for me are Fusion Reborn the Cooler movies Dragon Fist Goku use the Dragon Fist attack in GT Bojack Unbound because villains from that movie appear in Fusion Reborn and the first Bardock Movie from the 90s Bardock the Father of Goku should also be Canon with GT because its referenced in the first Cooler Movie for me all the resurrected villains that appear in Fusion Reborn and in the Super 17 saga of GT are Canon with GT i would personally also add the first Broly Movie from the 90s but this is just a personal opinion for me Dragon Ball has two continuities in the Anime the Toei Universe from the 90s the Original Dragon Ball Dragon Ball Z with all the filler and GT with some Movies Kai would be a Reboot of the Anime this New Timeline would go like this Original Dragon Ball without filler Kai Daima and Super

You'd also have to add Dead Zone, considering the Garlic Jr. filler arc from Z that's a sequel to that movie is treated as canon to GT thanks to the water that cured the Black Water Mist being used to cure everyone of being under Baby's control.

[Koitsukai]

There was so much more they could've done with the movie villains, if they hadn't treated them as silly little rioters that need to be put out. GT already introduced hybrids that no longer care about fighting and moved on to other things, so old villains can be more than decent contenders, yet not even Rildo was a problem, even though not even SS Goku was able to defeat him... and here he is oneshot like A-19 and Pui Pui.

I mean, the Super 17 story isn't that great or long enough to warrant a brief cameo from other villains. Kami forbid non-Goku characters got something engaging to do. They could've even gotten S-17 fucking up a villain nobody could take out.

[Hellspawn28]

If Fusion Reborn already happen, I think they would have brought it up. I also think Goku may have teach the fusion with Vegeta after Buu and before GT.

[WittyUsername]

The Super 17 arc in general seemed to only exist to set up the Evil Dragon storyline. The writers didn’t seem to put much thought into anything in that arc.

[Scsigs]

If Fusion Reborn already happen, I think they would have brought it up. I also think Goku may have teach the fusion with Vegeta after Buu and before GT.

I'm pretty sure it's deliberately left vague as to how Vegeta knows the Fusion Dance. He more than likely knows it exists because he knows potara fusion exists & I can't imagine the gang not having a gathering where they talk about what happened with Buu & fill each other in on the details the others missed or weren't around for, which is how Vegeta would know about it. Kinda like how he's not shocked to see Gotenks in Battle of Gods or Yo! Son Goku & Friends Return. I don't think it makes sense that he knows how to do it, but meh. It's pretty clear at this point that the writers weren't really thinking through how they portrayed certain things, or just assumed the audience wouldn't question what they were putting in GT.
My assumption is that they thought, "Oh, Vegeta knows how Fusion works, he did it in that one movie, & it's a dire situation, so the audience won't question why he knows how to do it. Unless GT's supposed to take place in a timeline like Buu's Fury where the Hell segments of Fusion Reborn still happened, cutting out all the Earth segments because they're the main reason why the movie's non-canon.

[JulieYBM]

The Super 17 arc in general seemed to only exist to set up the Evil Dragon storyline. The writers didn’t seem to put much thought into anything in that arc.

Given how wonky the broadcast schedule was during the time, I'd say that it probably had more to do with trying not to make the arc too complicated, while also setting up the end of the series in eight months. Maekawa Atsushi wrote every episode of the arc, as well as the TV special that aired between Episodes #41 and #42. Maekawa also wrote a majority of the episodes of the Evil Dragon arc, including the last five episodes. I think it's really interesting to note how the arc has seventeen episodes aired over twenty-four weeks, meaning there were numerous broadcast breaks, including 24 September 1997 through 15 October 1997. I'm not sure if I've forgotten any comments from staff on what was going on at this time behind the scenes, but it seems to me like production was being heavily hindered on some level.

I'm saying all this because my point being, "The writers didn't seem to put much thought into anything" just feels like we're not getting quite at the issue. Typically, a single writer handles so many scripts by themselves because they are in charge of the series composition and understand the series director and producer's wishes and it's just less of a headache to try and convey that information to someone else.

Which is my potentially awkward way of saying, I think we can do better than saying "the writers didn't put much thought into it." These kids shows always have layers of bullshit going on that influence the sharpness of a series' story.

[Kenji]

Right. If memory doesn't fail me, the producers behind GT said as a joke they planned to make the show last as much as another 10 years. And yet, it gives me the big impression that it was cancelled as early as Episode #9 when the Para Para Brothers first showed up and the writers started rushing every single idea out of the window as fast as possible, leading to a confusing series of villains one-upping one another and events being connected awkwardly. Aside from the Baby Arc, it never seemed to get better from that.

Reading the interviews, I do believe the writers thought hard about these ideas, they just weren't executed very well. Keep in mind Toriyama was a single person doing this weekly, now multiply that number to several different people being overworked to keep a show running weekly. Chaos is bound to ensue.