Unpopular DB opinions

[BernardoCairo]

I don't think it was a matter of "him having to," but rather "him wanting to." People kept asking for more Dragon Ball content for decades, and he only truly returned almost 20 years later (not counting Dragon Ball Online and some other smaller projects). I don't think he did it out of obligation, but probably because it was fun. Battle of Gods turned out great, which probably means the development went smoothly. And after that, he continued, with varying levels of involvement in each project. To me, it's quite clear that he dedicated himself much more to what he considered interesting, and even then, it was usually a collaborative effort.

[JulieYBM]

i don't think any of this is about infantilizing the man though

I think it's just about respecting an artist's vision and work, like it happens to every well respected artist out there that made stories that deeply affected people's lives, it's just how it works, ppl get attached to that particular art or style because it resonates with them

When fans talk about 'respecting his vision', they do so in this way as if he's being wronged by these projects that "aren't respecting his vision." It’s ridiculous, because Toriyama was signing off on these projects. He knew that he was allowing other people to make Dragon Ball. He knew that different kind of people make different kind of art.

It reads as wholly naive from fans for not understanding that Dragon Ball Super as a television series was not some mistake or something done to Toriyama. Toriyama let the production happen, took his check, and sent in new ideas for arcs and characters when asked to help.

[PhantomSaiyan]

When fans talk about 'respecting his vision', they do so in this way as if he's being wronged by these projects that "aren't respecting his vision." It’s ridiculous, because Toriyama was signing off on these projects. He knew that he was allowing other people to make Dragon Ball. He knew that different kind of people make different kind of art.

It reads as wholly naive from fans for not understanding that Dragon Ball Super as a television series was not some mistake or something done to Toriyama. Toriyama let the production happen, took his check, and sent in new ideas for arcs and characters when asked to help.

Alright I see what you mean now.
I agree, it's silly to imply that he's somehow being wronged when he willingly accepts and participates in Dragon Ball projects, and gets a HUGE paycheck on top of it lol besides, from interviews and whatnot, Toriyama wasn't really the type of artist who cared about artistic integrity, artistic vision, etc he fell into the job of mangaka just because he needed money at the end of the day.

Sure he seemed to enjoy it for the most part except for the deadlines, but there's a reason why he forgets all about his stories, he never took his art as seriously as the fans do, not even close.

[coola]

i don't think any of this is about infantilizing the man though

I think it's just about respecting an artist's vision and work, like it happens to every well respected artist out there that made stories that deeply affected people's lives, it's just how it works, ppl get attached to that particular art or style because it resonates with them

When fans talk about 'respecting his vision', they do so in this way as if he's being wronged by these projects that "aren't respecting his vision." It’s ridiculous, because Toriyama was signing off on these projects. He knew that he was allowing other people to make Dragon Ball. He knew that different kind of people make different kind of art.

It reads as wholly naive from fans for not understanding that Dragon Ball Super as a television series was not some mistake or something done to Toriyama. Toriyama let the production happen, took his check, and sent in new ideas for arcs and characters when asked to help.

Like others said, i didn't mean to disrespect Toriyama, i just thought it was strange Toei immediately went and redo Battle of Gods, same way i thought announcing next Ghostbusters just after Harold Ramis passed away was in poor taste.

[GurixDr34]

I'm from Mexico and i love the Latin American Spanish dub but now i prefer the original Japanese dub i think Goku and the other characters are much better in the original dub and now i prefer to watch all of Dragon Ball in Japanese i dont think any dub surpasses the Japanese one

[BernardoCairo]

I do not know what the general consensus in the fanbase is, but I disagree with the idea that Super Saiyajin 3 made no sense when it was first introduced. A common criticism is that Goku not using Super Saiyajin 3 against Majin Vegeta is illogical, yet it actually makes perfect sense. Using that form would have drastically shortened his remaining time on Earth, something Goku clearly wanted to avoid if possible. This is not speculation either, as Goku explicitly explains later in the arc that Super Saiyajin 3 burns through his time very quickly.
More broadly, Goku has a long history of keeping trump cards to himself until the right moment. During the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, he deliberately hid the fact that he could fly until the very end of the fight. Much later, he kept Super Saiyajin Blue Kaioken secret because he had not fully mastered it, which closely parallels his limited control over Super Saiyajin 3. Even in the Android saga, Goku concealed Gohan’s true potential and his entire plan from everyone else. Seen in that context, Super Saiyajin 3 fits perfectly with Goku’s established behavior rather than contradicting it.

[The Dark Knight]

I do not know what the general consensus in the fanbase is, but I disagree with the idea that Super Saiyajin 3 made no sense when it was first introduced. A common criticism is that Goku not using Super Saiyajin 3 against Majin Vegeta is illogical, yet it actually makes perfect sense. Using that form would have drastically shortened his remaining time on Earth, something Goku clearly wanted to avoid if possible. This is not speculation either, as Goku explicitly explains later in the arc that Super Saiyajin 3 burns through his time very quickly.

Some fans just hate on the Buu saga for the sake of it.

[MCDaveG]

I do not know what the general consensus in the fanbase is, but I disagree with the idea that Super Saiyajin 3 made no sense when it was first introduced. A common criticism is that Goku not using Super Saiyajin 3 against Majin Vegeta is illogical, yet it actually makes perfect sense. Using that form would have drastically shortened his remaining time on Earth, something Goku clearly wanted to avoid if possible. This is not speculation either, as Goku explicitly explains later in the arc that Super Saiyajin 3 burns through his time very quickly.

Some fans just hate on the Buu saga for the sake of it.

From what I recall, didn't Goku said that it was more of an "experimental" form, that he achieved in otherworld and would use as last resort as it used lot of energy?
Vegeta probably wasn't enough reason to do so and together with his limited time, like with power in all the shows (SSJ Blue Vegito defusing early, as the power increase burns through the time again, never mind the defusion retcon in Super).
It's speculation, in-universe one, but I believe that if Vegeta or anything at that time warranted the use of SSJ3, Goku would go for it.
Goku always goes from base or SSJ, based on the opponent and increases power output if he needs to and is shown to be actually conscious and reasonable about it, both as a measure towards the opponent and in pragmatic way, to not go full out from the beginning unnecesary (Kid Buu was a proper reason to go SSJ3 right away, but as Goku said, when alive, the form burnt through his Ki even more, which he didn't knew as he was literally dead when using it before).
I always thought that the reasoning of some fans that, if Goku went SSJ3 from the beginning, the Buu arc would be over is kinda shortsighted.
On the other hand, Vegeta acting like an idiot because of his Saiyan pride in Cell arc is OK with this optics. If he didn't, we won't have to suffer the Cell Games. And we can go on like this.

[BernardoCairo]

Some fans just hate on the Buu saga for the sake of it.

I agree. I mean, it's the weakest arc of the original manga, in my opinion. But I still really like it. It's not afraid to be silly and sometimes it almost feels like a parody. And it starts very strong. Probably one of the best beginnings of any Dragon Ball arc. Super Saiyajin 3 suits Goku perfectly, in my opinion. The idea of ​​going beyond the beyond, continuing to evolve even after death, etc.

@MCDaveG Yep, you pretty much summed it all up.

[The Dark Knight]

I agree. I mean, it's the weakest arc of the original manga, in my opinion.

This is where I rank it compared to the other arcs in the manga:

Z tier: Cell, Namek, and Saiyan arcs.

A tier: 22nd Tenkaichi, 23rd Tenkaichi, and King Piccolo arcs.

B tier: Red Ribbon Army and Buu arcs.

C tier: 21st Tenkaichi and Pilaf arcs.

The arc is not at the bottom, but it's nowhere near the top either. The Super Buu section of the story dragged it down for me, as without it I think it could've been an easy A tier arc.

[BernardoCairo]

This is where I rank it compared to the other arcs in the manga [...]

You ranked the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai pretty low, which surprised me since I love the themes in that arc. The first arc is also one of my favorites, though I get why it might not click with everyone.

My list would be:

Z: 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, Saiyajin Arc, Namek Arc
A: 21st Tenkaichi Budokai, 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai, Android Arc, Hunt for the Dragon Balls Arc
B: Piccolo Daimaoh Arc, Red Ribbon Army Arc, Boo Arc

That said, I think every arc is at least good and enjoyable.

The beginning and ending of the Boo Arc are almost perfect to me. Goku coming back, his fight with Vegeta, the tournament setting, and the return of the more magical elements all feel very Dragon Ball. The new characters like Videl, Dabura, Goten, and Babidi add a lot too. The final fight, with Goku using the Genkidama
and Vegeta coming up with the plan, feels like a great payoff.
The only part that drags a bit is the stretch where Goten and Trunks take over. It is not horrible, just not as strong as the rest.

[The Dark Knight]

You ranked the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai pretty low, which surprised me since I love the themes in that arc. The first arc is also one of my favorites, though I get why it might not click with everyone.

I actually really like those two; it's just that in a top 10, there's going to be two at the bottom.

The beginning and ending of the Boo Arc are almost perfect to me. Goku coming back, his fight with Vegeta, the tournament setting, and the return of the more magical elements all feel very Dragon Ball. The new characters like Videl, Dabura, Goten, and Babidi add a lot too. The final fight, with Goku using the Genkidama and Vegeta coming up with the plan, feels like a great payoff.

The Buu arc brought everything full circle and gave DB the best conclusion it could've gotten, especially the ending with the Genkidama and everyone coming together to make it happen; it was the perfect ending to a near perfect Shonen. The Super Buu section did slow things down for me, but it was nothing that outright ruined the arc for me; it's still a very solid. I'm always reading about people thinking DB should've ended with Cell, and I honestly have never understood why. The Cell arc is a proper conclusion to the story that began with the Saiyan arc, but not the entire story as a whole.

[BernardoCairo]

I actually really like those two; it's just that in a top 10, there's going to be two at the bottom.

That makes sense! Like I said, I think all the arcs are at least good or enjoyable.

The Buu arc brought everything full circle and gave DB the best conclusion it could've gotten, especially the ending with the Genkidama and everyone coming together to make it happen; it was the perfect ending to a near perfect Shonen.

I agree! GT even laughably tried to copy it just two years later with the Super Ultra Genkidama, but failed miserably. That original ending is simply brilliant. Probably my favorite Dragon Ball moment.

[WittyUsername]

When people say that the story should’ve ended with the Cell arc, they’re probably saying that with the anime in mind. It works as an ending if you specifically view everything from the Saiyans to Cell as “Gohan’s story,” which Toei heavily leaned on.

[Yellow Flower King]

When people say that the story should’ve ended with the Cell arc, they’re probably saying that with the anime in mind. It works as an ending if you specifically view everything from the Saiyans to Cell as “Gohan’s story,” which Toei heavily leaned on.

Yeah. Kai mostly is just Goku's story, which means that ending at cell in that version is really unsatisfying. Gohan is just not as compelling a character in the manga.

[Scsigs]

When people say that the story should’ve ended with the Cell arc, they’re probably saying that with the anime in mind. It works as an ending if you specifically view everything from the Saiyans to Cell as “Gohan’s story,” which Toei heavily leaned on.

I mean, let's be honest, Dragon Ball has a few clean breaks between some of its arcs that could've acted as endings. The 23rd World Tournament specifically ends with narration in the manga that explicitly tells the readers that the manga was still going to continue afterwards because of how definitive an ending it felt like for the story & Goku's development. Then the Android arc acts like an ending to what Toriyama had been building up to over the 3 story arcs since of Goku passing the torch to Gohan. Then the start of the Buu Arc starts after a similar clean break with Gohan being the new main character, only for Toriyama to backtrack on that & bring Goku back into the fold.

I would also argue that the last 3-4 arcs of Dragon Ball weren't just Gohan's story, but also Piccolo & Vegeta's stories since they become reformed villains over 2-3 arcs with their character developments. But, maybe that's too basic in these conversations.

Yeah. Kai mostly is just Goku's story, which means that ending at Cell in that version is really unsatisfying. Gohan is just not as compelling a character in the manga.

Well, it kinda is. Goku is often taken out of the action for other characters to get moments to shine & develop, though.
I also don't think Gohan's not interesting. He's just a different kind of character than his father. He's in many ways a foil for Goku, which is most likely why Toriyama felt like he couldn't go through with Gohan taking over as the main character from Goku.

[Yellow Flower King]

When people say that the story should’ve ended with the Cell arc, they’re probably saying that with the anime in mind. It works as an ending if you specifically view everything from the Saiyans to Cell as “Gohan’s story,” which Toei heavily leaned on.

I mean, let's be honest, Dragon Ball has a few clean breaks between some of its arcs that could've acted as endings. The 23rd World Tournament specifically ends with narration in the manga that explicitly tells the readers that the manga was still going to continue afterwards because of how definitive an ending it felt like for the story & Goku's development. Then the Android arc acts like an ending to what Toriyama had been building up to over the 3 story arcs since of Goku passing the torch to Gohan. Then the start of the Buu Arc starts after a similar clean break with Gohan being the new main character, only for Toriyama to backtrack on that & bring Goku back into the fold.

I would also argue that the last 3-4 arcs of Dragon Ball weren't just Gohan's story, but also Piccolo & Vegeta's stories since they become reformed villains over 2-3 arcs with their character developments. But, maybe that's too basic in these conversations.

Yeah. Kai mostly is just Goku's story, which means that ending at Cell in that version is really unsatisfying. Gohan is just not as compelling a character in the manga.

Well, it kinda is. Goku is often taken out of the action for other characters to get moments to shine & develop, though.
I also don't think Gohan's not interesting. He's just a different kind of character than his father. He's in many ways a foil for Goku, which is most likely why Toriyama felt like he couldn't go through with Gohan taking over as the main character from Goku.

I dont think its basic at all. Many fell DB has "No development" but Piccolo and Vegeta's characters are very much huge icons of character development. To me basic is "DEE BEE ZEE IS NO GRANDMA GOKU SHOW. BRING BACK FAULCONER"

[The Dark Knight]

I think an argument can be made that the Red Ribbon Army arc made for a good ending had Toriyama chose to walk away from Dragon Ball at that point, as all the plot points that were set up were resolved, especially regarding Goku and his grandfather. Toriyama seemed to give himself a way out every three arcs, which makes each of these three arcs the unofficial ending of a trilogy of stories:

Pilaf
21st Tenkaichi
Red Ribbon Army

22nd Tenkaichi
King Piccolo
23rd Tenkaichi

Saiyan
Namek
Androids

Had the series ended at any one of these three points, it wouldn't have necessarily been a bad ending, just a more fitting ending to the trilogy it was part of. The Buu arc on the other hand feels like it's a more fitting ending to the Dragon Ball manga as a whole, not just a handful of arcs it was directly connected to.

[BernardoCairo]

To be fair, the series could also have ended at the end of the first arc if Toriyama had wanted to. Everything culminates very well with the Dragon Balls being gathered and the wish being granted.

Aside from that, the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai served as a great ending. Goku grew up and, along with that, completed his journey to become the best martial artist on Earth, finally winning the tournament and doing so while remaining true to himself (rejecting Kami's offer to become God). There's also that beautiful montage of how the Dragon Balls ultimately served good and brought all the Z Fighters together.

It's an incredible coincidence how the anime team chose this particular arc to be the ending of the original Dragon Ball series. It fits very well. And it's also a clear break from the Saiyajin arc, which changed everything and introduced important new characters to the franchise.

[ABED]

I'll take Super Hero any day of the week over Broly. Broly is a boring movie and the animation while good can't make up for the really week story. The action isn't good enough, either. It's just so lame that Broly gets so insanely strong because he has a temper tantrum.