Does Goku play up his innocence and ignorance?

[super michael]

I think you can make an argument either way, but I'm curious on what the forum thinks. Does Goku purposefully make himself look dumber at certain points to fool his friends or enemies for a laugh, or is he genuinely acting on ignorance/innocence at every point?

If so, which certain scenes can you point to?

Yes.

There has been times when he plays dumb. For example: When he offered somebody else's wife to old Kai. He knows what a wife is, and he knows what men want women for, and still he did it. And when Vegeta confronted him he played dumb.

Goku first option was to give Elder Kaioshin some girly magazine, which Elder Kaioshin refused since he has super vision.
Goku second option was to let him meet a real woman.
Goku later suggest to give a picture of Bulma, so Elder Kaioshin is fine with using the Dragon Balls to restore the earth and its people.

Goku did it for the greater good of the earth and the universe. Goku didn't play dumb, Goku said why he didn't choose Chi Chi, since she would kill Goku for that idea.

[manbearpig34]

I think you can make an argument either way, but I'm curious on what the forum thinks. Does Goku purposefully make himself look dumber at certain points to fool his friends or enemies for a laugh, or is he genuinely acting on ignorance/innocence at every point?

If so, which certain scenes can you point to?

Yes.

There has been times when he plays dumb. For example: When he offered somebody else's wife to old Kai. He knows what a wife is, and he knows what men want women for, and still he did it. And when Vegeta confronted him he played dumb.

Goku first option was to give Elder Kaioshin some girly magazine, which Elder Kaioshin refused since he has super vision.
Goku second option was to let him meet a real woman.
Goku later suggest to give a picture of Bulma, so Elder Kaioshin is fine with using the Dragon Balls to restore the earth and its people.

Goku did it for the greater good of the earth and the universe. Goku didn't play dumb, Goku said why he didn't choose Chi Chi, since she would kill Goku for that idea.

Oh, and Bulma WOULDN'T have killed him for it?

[Bento-uri]

I don't know about playing up his innocence. For me personally, Goku developed a kind of fakeness during last 5-6 episodes of DBZ, when after beating Kid Buu he regained his place as the undisputed hero (a position he more or less shared with/ passed on to Gohan prior to that). Suddenly, the old, experienced "I wanna train the next generation to succeed me" Goku disappears, giving way to what he's largely known by today: an irresponsible martial arts junkie who looks for trouble and puts a whole galaxy at risk.
Most people I discuss the character with don't seem to recall his temperament in Android-Cell and most of Buu Saga. He was so self-possessed. I think it was the truest version of Goku.

[super michael]

Yes.

There has been times when he plays dumb. For example: When he offered somebody else's wife to old Kai. He knows what a wife is, and he knows what men want women for, and still he did it. And when Vegeta confronted him he played dumb.

Goku first option was to give Elder Kaioshin some girly magazine, which Elder Kaioshin refused since he has super vision.
Goku second option was to let him meet a real woman.
Goku later suggest to give a picture of Bulma, so Elder Kaioshin is fine with using the Dragon Balls to restore the earth and its people.

Goku did it for the greater good of the earth and the universe. Goku didn't play dumb, Goku said why he didn't choose Chi Chi, since she would kill Goku for that idea.

Oh, and Bulma WOULDN'T have killed him for it?

Bulma never killed Master Roshi for his action and she did honor her deal to get Master Roshi items and help without beating him up.
Bulma never killed Goku, when Master Roshi helped them get rid of the Ox King fire in the castle.
Bulma didn't kill Kuririn when he exposed her part to make Master Roshi bleed, to expose the invisible fighter.

Chi Chi she never had to accept to do anything, since she never asked Master Roshi help, we the viewers have no idea what Chi Chi action would be.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Bulma never killed Master Roshi for his action and she did honor her deal to get Master Roshi items and help without beating him up.
Bulma never killed Goku, when Master Roshi helped them get rid of the Ox King fire in the castle.
Bulma didn't kill Kuririn when he exposed her part to make Master Roshi bleed, to expose the invisible fighter.

Chi Chi she never had to accept to do anything, since she never asked Master Roshi help, we the viewers have no idea what Chi Chi action would be.

They are obviously not being literal when they use the word "killed". Why are you taking it literally? No shit she didn't kill Roshi and Goku, not only she could not in a million years hope to have enough strenght to kill them, but she would have no desire to do so no matter how angry she got, it's out of character.

"Killing" is just used as a hyperbole instead of just saying "she'd get mad", that's all it is, no need to specify that she wouldn't actually kill them, everyone knows that already, the most she'd do is get angry and throw an irrelevant gag punch or two.

As for Chi Chi's reaction, she'd obviously get mad. She wouldn't kill either, obviously. Her hypothetical reaction is not the mystery you're making it out to be, imagining how she'd react is about as easy as doing 2 + 2

[vilker]

I think the main issue is that Super confuses Indifference with Stupidity.

Goku isn't dumb. He is a martial arts savant who operates on a different wavelength than normal humans. The problem with Super's portrayal (like the infamous kissing scene) is that it paints him as someone who literally doesn't know basic concepts. That is character assassination.

It’s not that he filters these things out to avoid work; it’s that he genuinely operates on a plane where mundane human problems are irrelevant.

Think of it this way: If you talk to a quantum physicist (or a monk) about the latest drama on a Reality TV show, they might look at you with a blank stare. It’s not because they are stupid, and they aren't "pretending" to be confused to avoid the conversation. They just genuinely do not care.

Goku is "above" concepts like high school grades, complex romance, or social etiquette. His mind is tuned exclusively to survival, self-improvement, and protecting life. When people talk to him about "normal" stuff, he doesn't understand it because to him, it's just background noise. He isn't acting; he just has a completely different hierarchy of values.

He understands the world, he just chooses not to engage with the trivial parts of it. Super makes the mistake of treating that lack of interest as a lack of intelligence.

[super michael]

I think the main issue is that Super confuses Indifference with Stupidity.

Goku isn't dumb. He is a martial arts savant who operates on a different wavelength than normal humans. The problem with Super's portrayal (like the infamous kissing scene) is that it paints him as someone who literally doesn't know basic concepts. That is character assassination.

It’s not that he filters these things out to avoid work; it’s that he genuinely operates on a plane where mundane human problems are irrelevant.

Think of it this way: If you talk to a quantum physicist (or a monk) about the latest drama on a Reality TV show, they might look at you with a blank stare. It’s not because they are stupid, and they aren't "pretending" to be confused to avoid the conversation. They just genuinely do not care.

Goku is "above" concepts like high school grades, complex romance, or social etiquette. His mind is tuned exclusively to survival, self-improvement, and protecting life. When people talk to him about "normal" stuff, he doesn't understand it because to him, it's just background noise. He isn't acting; he just has a completely different hierarchy of values.

He understands the world, he just chooses not to engage with the trivial parts of it. Super makes the mistake of treating that lack of interest as a lack of intelligence.

I think you make a good point about Goku in DB/DBZ being indifferent and in DBS Goku being stupid. In DBS act stupid even on things that he knew in the past.

I wouldn't call Goku an expert in martial arts and training, especially with how he behaved in DBS Super Hero.


DBZ likes teaching and training others, while in DBS Goku has doubts and even wanted to refuse to teach Uub.

[Koitsukai]

I think the main issue is that Super confuses Indifference with Stupidity.

Goku isn't dumb. He is a martial arts savant who operates on a different wavelength than normal humans. The problem with Super's portrayal (like the infamous kissing scene) is that it paints him as someone who literally doesn't know basic concepts. That is character assassination.

It’s not that he filters these things out to avoid work; it’s that he genuinely operates on a plane where mundane human problems are irrelevant.

Think of it this way: If you talk to a quantum physicist (or a monk) about the latest drama on a Reality TV show, they might look at you with a blank stare. It’s not because they are stupid, and they aren't "pretending" to be confused to avoid the conversation. They just genuinely do not care.

Goku is "above" concepts like high school grades, complex romance, or social etiquette. His mind is tuned exclusively to survival, self-improvement, and protecting life. When people talk to him about "normal" stuff, he doesn't understand it because to him, it's just background noise. He isn't acting; he just has a completely different hierarchy of values.

He understands the world, he just chooses not to engage with the trivial parts of it. Super makes the mistake of treating that lack of interest as a lack of intelligence.

I think you make a good point about Goku in DB/DBZ being indifferent and in DBS Goku being stupid. In DBS act stupid even on things that he knew in the past.

I wouldn't call Goku an expert in martial arts and training, especially with how he behaved in DBS Super Hero.


DBZ likes teaching and training others, while in DBS Goku has doubts and even wanted to refuse to teach Uub.

Do you really think one sentence spoken in a movie (and re-interpreted in the manga retelling because it was plain wrong) has more weight than all of his achievements, like mastering god ki, SSB, and attaining a technique not even the Hakaishin could? to the point he cannot be called an expert anymore?
In terms of teaching, he has been helping Broly control an uncontrollable power.

[super michael]

I think the main issue is that Super confuses Indifference with Stupidity.

Goku isn't dumb. He is a martial arts savant who operates on a different wavelength than normal humans. The problem with Super's portrayal (like the infamous kissing scene) is that it paints him as someone who literally doesn't know basic concepts. That is character assassination.

It’s not that he filters these things out to avoid work; it’s that he genuinely operates on a plane where mundane human problems are irrelevant.

Think of it this way: If you talk to a quantum physicist (or a monk) about the latest drama on a Reality TV show, they might look at you with a blank stare. It’s not because they are stupid, and they aren't "pretending" to be confused to avoid the conversation. They just genuinely do not care.

Goku is "above" concepts like high school grades, complex romance, or social etiquette. His mind is tuned exclusively to survival, self-improvement, and protecting life. When people talk to him about "normal" stuff, he doesn't understand it because to him, it's just background noise. He isn't acting; he just has a completely different hierarchy of values.

He understands the world, he just chooses not to engage with the trivial parts of it. Super makes the mistake of treating that lack of interest as a lack of intelligence.

I think you make a good point about Goku in DB/DBZ being indifferent and in DBS Goku being stupid. In DBS act stupid even on things that he knew in the past.

I wouldn't call Goku an expert in martial arts and training, especially with how he behaved in DBS Super Hero.


DBZ likes teaching and training others, while in DBS Goku has doubts and even wanted to refuse to teach Uub.

Do you really think one sentence spoken in a movie (and re-interpreted in the manga retelling because it was plain wrong) has more weight than all of his achievements, like mastering god ki, SSB, and attaining a technique not even the Hakaishin could? to the point he cannot be called an expert anymore?
In terms of teaching, he has been helping Broly control an uncontrollable power.

Let me show you the conversation that took place in DBS Super Hero:

Goku: Hey, cut it out! If you sit still so long, you're gonna get rusty! The world is full of guys like Jiren, and Broly here and loads of other amazin' folks! (Goku being bossy and stupid)

Vegeta: Shut up and don't interfere. This is training too.

Goku: You fibber! No way is that a form of trainin'! (Goku accusing Vegeta of lying and not understanding it is training)

Vegeta: You just don't get it.

Goku: What's to get? (Goku being clueless)

Vegeta: Jiren was so overwhelmingly strong. And yet, his power really wasn't so different from our own.

Goku: Huh? (Goku being clueless)

Vegeta: But he used his power with total efficiency. Didn't you notice? Even in the midst of battle, his body and spirit were both fully relaxed until the moment he struck.

Goku: Really? (Goku being clueless)

Vegeta: Such an attack from nowhere can't be predicted by the enemy, and packs a tremendous punch. What's more, it allows one to conserve stamina.

Goku: Maybe so... (Goku being clueless)

Vegeta: Jiren probably achieved it by instinct. So since I can't manage it myself, I'm starting out with mental training.

Whis: Ding ding ding! Outstanding! Truly outstanding, Vegeta-san! I'm impressed you've realized that.
You are absolutely correct! It's not training to simply beef up your body like an idiot.

Every word Goku spoke just made him look stupid. The only smart thing Goku said was for Broly to not snap.

DBS has no problem retconning things that happened in the past. Check the Monaka episode that is one example of retconning Goku to being completely dumb. EOZ Trunks has purple hair, while in DBS Super Hero he has blue hair an example, however his fusion has purple hair even though no one has purple hair.

[Koitsukai]

I think you make a good point about Goku in DB/DBZ being indifferent and in DBS Goku being stupid. In DBS act stupid even on things that he knew in the past.

I wouldn't call Goku an expert in martial arts and training, especially with how he behaved in DBS Super Hero.


DBZ likes teaching and training others, while in DBS Goku has doubts and even wanted to refuse to teach Uub.

Do you really think one sentence spoken in a movie (and re-interpreted in the manga retelling because it was plain wrong) has more weight than all of his achievements, like mastering god ki, SSB, and attaining a technique not even the Hakaishin could? to the point he cannot be called an expert anymore?
In terms of teaching, he has been helping Broly control an uncontrollable power.

Let me show you the conversation that took place in DBS Super Hero:

Goku: Hey, cut it out! If you sit still so long, you're gonna get rusty! The world is full of guys like Jiren, and Broly here and loads of other amazin' folks! (Goku being bossy and stupid)

Vegeta: Shut up and don't interfere. This is training too.

Goku: You fibber! No way is that a form of trainin'! (Goku accusing Vegeta of lying and not understanding it is training)

Vegeta: You just don't get it.

Goku: What's to get? (Goku being clueless)

Vegeta: Jiren was so overwhelmingly strong. And yet, his power really wasn't so different from our own.

Goku: Huh? (Goku being clueless)

Vegeta: But he used his power with total efficiency. Didn't you notice? Even in the midst of battle, his body and spirit were both fully relaxed until the moment he struck.

Goku: Really? (Goku being clueless)

Vegeta: Such an attack from nowhere can't be predicted by the enemy, and packs a tremendous punch. What's more, it allows one to conserve stamina.

Goku: Maybe so... (Goku being clueless)

Vegeta: Jiren probably achieved it by instinct. So since I can't manage it myself, I'm starting out with mental training.

Whis: Ding ding ding! Outstanding! Truly outstanding, Vegeta-san! I'm impressed you've realized that.
You are absolutely correct! It's not training to simply beef up your body like an idiot.

Every word Goku spoke just made him look stupid. The only smart thing Goku said was for Broly to not snap.

DBS has no problem retconning things that happened in the past. Check the Monaka episode that is one example of retconning Goku to being completely dumb. EOZ Trunks has purple hair, while in DBS Super Hero he has blue hair an example, however his fusion has purple hair even though no one has purple hair.

I've seen the movie, but again: to you, the dialogue in one particular scene is enough to override all of his achievements to the point he doesn't deserve to be called an expert anymore?

And I don't really see what Trunks has to do with this

[super michael]

My point with Trunks is that DBS are not afraid to retcon things that happened in the past. So they have no problem making Goku look like an amateur for no reason at all. Sadly retcon overrides whatever achievement Goku had.


Goku was dumb in DBS and they even made him dumb in DBS Super Hero

[PhantomSaiyan]

One stupid badly written line that has even been removed from the Manga version does not undo all of Goku's achievements and mastery.

It was just one badly written scene, nothing more nothing less, it holds no weight compared to everything else.

[Koitsukai]

My point with Trunks is that DBS are not afraid to retcon things that happened in the past. So they have no problem making Goku look like an amateur for no reason at all. Sadly retcon overrides whatever achievement Goku had.


Goku was dumb in DBS and they even made him dumb in DBS Super Hero

So, you believe filler scenes or one bad line of dialogue that was eventually corrected in the manga supersede the actual official story and character development. Even errors that have been corrected.

To you, being unaware that he was fighting Beerus in a Monaka costume or a throwaway line that was meant to make Vegeta look good carries more weight than learning Hakai on his own, controlling SSB's ki leakage, or unlocking three times a technique the gods couldn’t master in ages in just 48 minutes.

I just cannot agree with that at all. To me, the core of the narrative will always outweigh filler scenes and isolated lines that were retconned immediately.

[Chuquita]

It becomes a difficult answer when you take the whole of all official db-related products into consideration because of how many cooks you have in the kitchen.

So, if I only count the original 42 volumes of manga, my answer would be yes, Goku absolutely plays it up when it's to his advantage, and I think he's aware of who it's more effective on and who is more likely to see though that act. I also think there are moments where he's genuinely innocent or ignorant and that bit of truth and self-awareness is what makes when it is an act seem more believable.

[JulieYBM]

Dragon Ball is a commercial product created for a commercial audience of mostly kids and their parents who have to watch that shit with them. Dragon Ball's audience is not us—weird adult nerds who talk about art on the internet. This is to say, you’re going to get Gokuu going through old storylines again because the product is crafted to appeal to a core audience that may not understand or have familiarity with a previous character and story development, especially for a long-running serial like Dragon Ball.

I'm not going to bother passing judgment on this element of creating a kid's cartoon because this shit has gone on since inception and nothing I say is Ultima going to affect it.

I will, however, say that I wish these projects would depict their characters less as comically stupid, but I have the suspicion that that shit is ultimately decided at a least far above some schmuck getting paid $2,000 to write a script in two weeks. The "Gokuu doesn't know what a kiss is" bit is ultimately a symptom of the reality of a capitalist system influencing what art gets made, when and how.

[super michael]

I guess maybe I am wrong and the filler scenes and mistake in the movie doesn't negate Goku achievements in the past. True the manga version they corrected the mistake from the movie.

[SylentEcho]

He's not dumb, he's just ignorant to certain things because he grew up alone. DBS hit the nail on the thumb and made him straight dumb.