The Ultimate Fate of DBS

[darkpit06]

With the reveal that the Dragon Ball Super anime would be returning after eight years to adapt the Moro Saga and retell the Beerus Saga, I wanted to discuss a very debatable topic: what the future of Dragon Ball Super will ultimately be. The most recent arc in Dragon Ball Super, anime or manga, was the Super Hero Saga, which was adapted in both movie form and manga form (with an added prologue and epilogue). But now, where do we go from here? And will the manga even return at this point?

Well, with the anime being confirmed to adapt the manga-first Moro Saga, it stands to reason that the legal complications between the rights holders for Dragon Ball--Shuiesha, Toei, and Capsule Corporation--are beginning to thaw out. As Toyotaro said, the future of DBS doesn't come from him, but who owns the rights. And if the Shuiesha-first Moro Saga is being adapted into anime form, it's possible that Shuiesha has decided to allow the manga to continue as well. Toyotaro did tease what the future of the manga would look like, and there's still spine art that needs to be put to good use, so we might as well continue it.

But that begs the big question: what comes next? Super is very close to coming to the End of Z, so the question is: will Super end before it and maintain the original ending, or continue past it and ensure that Dragon Ball has no limits regarding the future? Speaking of which, what about Black Frieza, and who the strongest warrior of Universe 7 truly is? And the long-awaited trip to Universe 6's Planet Sadala? There's a bunch of loose ends that should be addressed.

Well, I want to discuss the first big topic: the End of Z, and how Super will address it. If you ask what I think, I'd say this: not only do I want Dragon Ball Super to go past the End of Z and free itself from its limitations, but I think the stage has been set for the next arc in Super to tackle it.

The final chapter of the manga's take on Super Hero has Goku and Vegeta decide to take a break from their training on Beerus's planet and return to Earth for the time being. With this chapter taking place in close proximity to the fateful meeting between Goku and Uub, I want to say that this move was intentional because the next arc would finally reach and go beyond the End of Z. Goku's on Earth, the 28th World Tournament is about to be held, and the stage is set for DBS to finally break past this limit. The next arc would be primarily focused on Uub being trained by Goku, and the two learning things from one another as they grow stronger by the saga's end. Afterwards, it would be onward to a limitless future of Dragon Ball Super content.

Another elephant in the room is this: Black Frieza. With Frieza unveiling his newest transformation at the end of the Heeters Saga, people were quick to assume that the next arc in Super would focus on Black Frieza and the threat he poses. That's not necessarily true, though.

Aside from the fact that the next arc wound up being Super Hero, just because Black Frieza was revealed doesn't mean he'll be the next major threat for Goku and Vegeta. Indeed, they could face off against more threats as they continue to grow strong enough to beat Frieza again. Additionally, as Whis implied, Frieza may not even be the strongest warrior of the universe that the Orcale Fish predicted. It's entirely possible that someone else will emerge that'll have that title, and Goku and Vegeta would have to fight them instead of Black Frieza.

In fact, a theory I have is this: it was decided that Super would ultimately go beyond the End of Z--but before they could do that, they would need to create a new goalpost for the series for when Goku finally meets Uub. This resulted in the creation of Black Frieza, who will serve as the next "endpoint" for Super once the End of Z is surpassed in the timeline. Once the time comes for Black Frieza to be confronted, another new "endpoint" will be created to ensure that Super continues beyond that storyline.

This, of course, is a massive tin-foil hatted conspiracy theory, but that's just an idea that I have.

Besides, they can't just leave the entire multiverse hanging. Super was known for introducing the multiverse, and it was teased that we'll eventually learn all about it beyond the two big tournaments we had. More specifically, Vegeta is still waiting to visit Universe 6's Planet Sadala, where Cabba promised to take him to one day. You can't just end Super without at least heading to the Sadala of U6. Like Black Frieza, this is a plot point that should finally pay off before Super ever ends.

Additionally, there's a lot of potential for the rest of the universes as well. Aside from Universe 6, there are six other universes that partook in the Tournament of Power, four other universes beyond them, and six that were erased and may very well have come back. There's a lot of stories that could be told, and I don't want Super to miss out on the multiversal exploration.

This leads me to another tin-foil hat theory: Dragon Ball Super is being operated in multiple phases. The first phase of Super established the multiverse, lasting from Goku's original battle with Beerus all the way to the Tournament of Power. The second phase begins the process exploring the multiverse one universe at a time, and it starts with Goku's own Universe 7. This phase would encompass everything from Broly and Moro to when Goku and friends fight the strongest warrior in the universe. This phase would also finally see the End of Z surpassed in the timeline--but the original End of Z would still be there for those who prefer it to be Dragon Ball's true ending.

The third phase would then begin to tackle Universe 6; Goku and Vegeta would visit Planet Sadala and train with Champa and Vados, and Caulifla, Cabba and Kale would become main protagonists on par with them. The rest of Universe 6's warriors would also be fleshed out, in addition to introducing even more characters native to it. The third phase would also explore even more of Universe 7, as well as the relationship between both U7 and U6. Each phase beyond the third would begin to explore another universe in the multiverse in greater detail. Eventually, it would get to a point where all the warriors from the Tournament of Power would be fleshed-out allies to Goku and friends, and even more new warriors from each would show up to join them.

Again, it's a theory, but that's what I ultimately hope.

In conclusion, while we don't know for sure what the future holds for Super, I hope that we do go beyond the End of Z, and truly explore the multiverse in detail. Call this next statement controversial, but I hope that Super doesn't have a definite ending--that is, unless Goku manages to fully defeat Beerus/Whis/the Grand Minister/Zeno in combat. Toyotaro himself stated that so long as the fans want to see more of Goku's adventures, Dragon Ball should not have a true conclusion. And while he didn't specifically mention Super, I'd assume that he's teasing that Super may not be coming to an end for a very long time.

And as for what that means for the End of Z and Super's future? Well, Toyotaro also stated that fans can choose their own canon as to what Dragon Ball's story is. Basically, this means that for those who prefer that Super is outright ignored in favor of the original End of Z, fans can do that. If fans want GT to be treated as the true ending, that can also apply. And, assuming that Super surpasses the End of Z, if fans want to treat Super as the true continuation of Dragon Ball, that's definitely alright.

One more thing: Toriyama ended Dragon Ball in the first place because he didn't want Goku and his friends to grow too old. Shenron can always be summoned to ensure that everyone stays young forever. Problem solved.

[BernardoCairo]

I believe Toyotaro will eventually return and finish his work (perhaps with the help of some notes left by Toriyama). The animation team will then take over and finalize the adaptation in their own terms, but actually following the manga this time around. After that, Dragon Ball will continue to live on in new series and games.

[Xeogran]

I don't expect Super to go past EoZ, because Toyotaro once said the point of Super is to connect with it, as well as the volume spines do prove that it's still got long way to go. I'm sure Black Frieza arc was supposed to still be "in-between" of Super and EoZ, but maybe plans changed and they will reshape it into a movie.

Many people said it before but if they ever go past EoZ again, they'll probably make a separate subtitle for it like Ultra or Hyper. But I'm certain that would have 0% Toriyama involvement unless they dare to tell us he worked on something 10+ years in advance.

[SupremeKai25]

I hope it never goes beyond the End of Z. New stories should continue to be set in the midquel timeframe.

[super michael]

I hope the story goes beyond EOZ, the more midquel there are the more contradictions there will be. Plus with midquel we know who doesn't die.

Look at Yu-Gi-Oh, Digimon, Inuyasha, Captain Tsubasa, Naruto, Major, etc, they don't rely on midquel, they get sequels. Those sequels can be time skip or in another universe.

As for the new Dragon Ball game with the new character, I wonder how the story will be connected. I think they call it Dragon Ball Age 1000.

[kemuri07]

I’ve often been befuddled on why people are so adamant on Super going past EOD. And, after thinking about it, I think I get it?

I think there’s a desperate need by Super fans for legitimacy: If Super moves on past EoZ, then it can be treated as the true sequel to Z that they clearly want it to be. Because as it is now: how is it any different to Daima? Both stories take place in some ambiguous interval after Buu but before EoZ, both have world building that doesn’t do much for Z, and—and this is the most important part—both are made so that you don’t have to read/watch them if you’re going through Z.

They are disposable. It’s why I don’t think it’ll ever happen because Super ain’t built like that. Most of its story reveals can be easily discarded and thrown away. Beerus told Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta? Cool beans. Except these clearly aren’t things in the original manga. Sure, you can decide that that’s “canon”, but it’s clearly done in a way that people can easily ignore it, like I do. Because it’s trash.

And I imagine that’s how Toei likes it. Segment its fan base so that they’ll have something to sell you whether you’re a Z fan or Super fan. It’s specifically designed so that no one feels alienated from watching a movie or checking out a show.

[Grimlock]

Nope, you didn't get it.

It's not even Dragon Ball Super that should go beyond of Z, it could be Dragon Ball Daima, it could be a new series under a new name. The thing is, Dragon Ball has to move forward, that's the actual the thing. It doesn't matter which series goes "beyond of Z", as long as there is a series after it while presenting new stuff and aging the characters, that's all that matters.

No, Dragon Ball GT is a thirty-year-old series. It's nothing new. Dragon Ball Online only provides texts without cutscenes (or animated manga panels) for us to see what happened, we only read what transpired after the 28th tournament. So unless they adapt Dragon Ball Online, it is a bit difficult, even though the game is the sequel of the manga. I doubt it has anything to do with "legitimacy".

[PhantomSaiyan]

I’ve often been befuddled on why people are so adamant on Super going past EOD. And, after thinking about it, I think I get it?

I think there’s a desperate need by Super fans for legitimacy: If Super moves on past EoZ, then it can be treated as the true sequel to Z that they clearly want it to be. Because as it is now: how is it any different to Daima? Both stories take place in some ambiguous interval after Buu but before EoZ, both have world building that doesn’t do much for Z, and—and this is the most important part—both are made so that you don’t have to read/watch them if you’re going through Z.

They are disposable. It’s why I don’t think it’ll ever happen because Super ain’t built like that. Most of its story reveals can be easily discarded and thrown away. Beerus told Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta? Cool beans. Except these clearly aren’t things in the original manga. Sure, you can decide that that’s “canon”, but it’s clearly done in a way that people can easily ignore it, like I do. Because it’s trash.

And I imagine that’s how Toei likes it. Segment its fan base so that they’ll have something to sell you whether you’re a Z fan or Super fan. It’s specifically designed so that no one feels alienated from watching a movie or checking out a show.

I don't think you got it either.

GT goes beyond End of Z and it's not like it's treated as this non disposable "legitimate" story by the fandom, not even close.

The main reason is just that we think it would be cool to see that time period, adult Goten and Trunks, Pan with tons of potential, Uub, there's just tons of potential and curiosity, that's all

You're right about the last part though, it's convenient for Toei to have various types of Dragon Ball fan they can sell their merch to

[BernardoCairo]

I hope it never goes beyond the End of Z. New stories should continue to be set in the midquel timeframe.

I agree that this is the main goal of Super (to be set at that specific time frame). And I'm not that obsessed with going beyond the end of Dragon Ball Z either. But it would be strange if the story continued forever and that moment never arrived.

[kemuri07]

No, I do get it.

Neither Daima or Super will ever go past EOZ because it’s not worth it too. And it’s not worth it for the reasons I specified: They’re disposable storylines that will never eclipse the main franchise. Which is Z.

You can keep hoping and praying it happens. It won’t. We are like, what, 15 years since Super. If it was going to happen, it would have happened.

[PhantomSaiyan]

No, I do get it.

Neither Daima or Super will ever go past EOZ because it’s not worth it too. And it’s not worth it for the reasons I specified: They’re disposable storylines that will never eclipse the main franchise. Which is Z.

You can keep hoping and praying it happens. It won’t. We are like, what, 15 years since Super. If it was going to happen, it would have happened.

No, you don't, how can you even begin to claim that you get it if you're not one of the people hoping the series goes beyond Z?

You literally got told by said people why they want the series to go beyond and you're just like "No, I know better than you why you want this" wtf???

It has nothing to do with the stories being "disposable" (which is a funny word considering how much money it makes Toei) or wanting more "validity" no matter how much you can convince yourself and be stubborn about it for no reason.

And about the 15 years... so what? Putting aside the fact that the anime has been on hold for almost 10 years, did you forget where we are with the timeline? If they continue with more stories, it's downright impossible to not eventually go past end of Z without starting over a new series set in an alternate timeline.

And I don't see how it's considered unholy or something to go beyond Z, as if anything that goes beyond Z would "eclipse" it as you put it.. Did you forget that GT exists or something? Going beyond the end of Z ain't nothing new lol

[ma0u]

I've just always known Toriyama's Dragon Ball manga ended in May of 1995—while GT was the spin-off series that showed us all the characters grown older aside from Goku (who was already childish by nature and spirit) who gets turned into a young child up until the ending where we see a flash forward 100 years into the future (Age 889) with Pan, Goku Jr and Vegeta Jr.

To me, it was a solid ending, but for someone like myself, the lore ended 3 decades ago. Still, I didn't get to watch all 508 episodes of DB/Z/GT until the late 90s; though that is the case for the majority of fans online nowadays, who also didn't have the opportunity to watch Dragon Ball from start to finish with FujiTV on Wednesdays at 6/7pm from 1986-1997 as a source (along with a fluent understanding of Japanese). Now the 21st century Dragon Ball midquel releases have torn the fandom apart more than bring it together, and now it's about to divide even more.

Daima was a very necessary (though silly and ridiculous) release, because it confirmed that Age 775-783 is just a wildcard timeline. This also confirmed that a Dragon Ball series doesn't need a manga base to determine whether Toriyama worked any more or less on a series (especially after Toriyama confirmed Daima to be the 21st century Dragon Ball series he was the most involved with).

I personally think these new post Toriyama Super mini series releases will be repetitive, as they'll be the 3rd time we see an animated release of Beerus' introduction (4th if you count the manga). Yes, the Galactic Patrol Series might check off the 'Must see Moro anime' box that Super fans have, however it obviously will come off with out many layers of interest or upgrade to hide the overall inconsequentiality of release.

Even in the event we get full on Kan'no/Takahashi tier animation, silent stare downs, more atmospheric feel to the series (wind blowing, building stakes), better fights, actual bloodshed (the whole 9 yards), a remake series still only has a future in being critiqued and compared to one another—Not really much else for fans to discuss otherwise.

p.s.
Then of course if the Daima version of SSJ4 is introduced into future CC Tokyo Super remakes, Toyotaro/Super fans groups will complain over SSJ4 and any other additional tit for tat changes and comparisons between the original Super and new CC Tokyo releases, which will go on... and on.... and on......

[Koitsukai]

Sure, people just want to move past EoZ because they’re desperate for validation. It couldn’t possibly be that we’re tired of this time rift cramming in more stories than DBZ ever had, or bored of having characters looking the same for 8 arcs straight.

Daima is one year old. So if this “legitimacy” theory depends on Daima’s existence, then that explanation is, at most, a year old. Fans have wanted to move past EoZ for over a decade. Shit, even before DBS, fans wanted stories beyond EoZ, and legitimacy had nothing to do with it.

We’ve been orbiting the Buu arc for 13 years. Wanting the story to move forward isn’t a legitimacy complex, it’s basic narrative progression.

[JulieYBM]

The nice thing about liking the new Dragon Ball Super characters is that the series doesn't really need to move past the Uub arc to see more of those characters and where their arcs go.

Gokuu is, unfortunately, never going to change. The characters from the 1984 comic will continue to spin their wheels because Toriyama had no real ambition for them.

Dragon Ball will not improve. Dragon Ball will not be good. Iyoku will refuse to allow it to, because Toriyama refused to allow it to. Dragon Ball Daima was a prototype for what the rest of the franchise will continue to look like. It's not going to be pretty.

[ma0u]

Past decade and a half I've watched fans dispute what the 'canon' Dragon Ball actually is, with some fans believing that Super and Toyotaro were the end all that overwrite episode 288-291 of Z/Chapter 518 and 519 of the original manga.

Again, the series ended 30 years ago. To me, 1997 was where the series ended at Age 889 and that was it, it was over. Even when considering the manga ending at Age 784, the ending with Goku Jr and Vegeta Jr made the series over, over.

Not sure what's left to be told, since the point of the story was to watch everyone grow up from start to finish.

Yo, Son Goku and Friends Return and Dragon Ball Evolution came out in 2008, both of which came off as silly and promotional (easily ignored). This was the beginning of the wildcard timeline.

Though sure enough, 21st century Shueisha went all in after that and Toriyama was given the ultimatum 'Sell more IP shares to 20th century Fox for Dragon Ball Evolution 2 < Work with Toei on BoG' (which then led to Super being released in 2015—the series we are now watching be re-released in mini series format 11 years later)

I will say, Daima was a very necessary (though silly and ridiculous) release, because it ultimately confirmed that Age 775-783 is just a wildcard timeline. Besides, each new 21st century Dragon Ball release was introduced with the same disassociating question which was basically 'Guess Goten and Trunks Age and whether Pan is Alive (aka What year it actually is)' lol

[JulieYBM]

Canon doesn't really matter and never has. People get so caught up questions of canon because they need to feel like they are objectively correct because they have turned their hobby into a competition. It's no way to go about appreciating art—and it makes for painfully obnoxious internet forum posts.

We can all play the nostalgia card all we want, but as a gal who became a fan in 1998—when Dragon Ball was 'over'—I've learned from life and the passage of time that nostalgia is worthless. All commercial IP eventually continues. Some new kid is going to fall in love with said continuation. The Dr. Slump fans complained about Dragon Ball and the Dragon Ball fans of the 1980s complained about the Dragon Ball of the 1990s. It's inevitable, which is why all that ultimately matters is if an individual enjoys a particular work and why.

Art becomes a lot more fun when you realize that every answer is the right answer.

[ma0u]

DB/Z/GT story spans across 150 years, which makes Dragon Ball a bit different than others, as it actually had an ending.

Dr. Slump never had any real jumps in time, with Arale being a robot and Senbei's story mostly revolving around his relationship with Midori. With Dragon Ball we saw the protagonist start as a child to being a grandfather to Pan (then a great, great, great, great grand father to Goku Jr at the ending of GT).

Turning the clock back indefinitely on the series left viewers in this disassociated state where the 'now' or present period is before the end of Z for the last 13 years (as if episode 288-291 don't exist and Z didn't end 30 years ago).

There's so many more appropriate ways that they could have continued Dragon Ball, even with the wild card timeline. Could have easily made Grandma Pan into a story teller to bring all the characters back to life and explain things that happen in the past, rather than introduce all these ridiculous new hair color transformations and try to release a Goku and Vegeta show with them both acting completely out of character.

Now we just get to watch this wildcard timeline get re-releases for who knows how many years (personally I think that's the idea Iyoku and Toriyama had, so that fans realize that aside from the Age 1000 crap, any new lore beyond Age 783 will only be found in the EoZ and GT).

But sure, for fans who just want to appreciate the aesthetics of the series, I think these re-releases will do just that, fixing previously cursed animation into beautiful 4K animation. Otherwise from a lore accurate perspective, the story ended 30 years ago, and nothing will change that.

[PhantomSaiyan]

rather than introduce all these ridiculous new hair color transformations and try to release a Goku and Vegeta show with them both acting completely out of character.

Now we just get to watch this wildcard timeline get re-releases for who knows how many years (personally I think that's the idea Iyoku and Toriyama had, so that fans realize that aside from the Age 1000 crap, any new lore beyond Age 783 will only be found in the EoZ and GT).

But sure, for fans who just want to appreciate the aesthetics of the series, I think these re-releases will do just that, fixing previously cursed animation into beautiful 4K animation. Otherwise from a lore accurate perspective, the story ended 30 years ago, and nothing will change that.

Honestly dude, sounds like you just don't like Super, and are trying to cope by making weird explanations to invalidate it's existence.

You can call it "wildcard" timeline all you want, it's still Toei's main money maker right now. New audiences grew up with Super, it is now for them what OG and Z and GT were for us. If you think Toei is just gonna throw Super away, you need to learn a thing or two about marketing.

Your wild theory that the point of Daima was to "show us that Super is a "wildcare" timeline" is also completely inaccurate of course.
The reason Iyoku made a story outside of the Super timeline, was because of the legal issues between Shueisha and Capsule Corporation at the time. Iyoku had the rights to make anime, but not the rights to adapt the Super story, so they came up with Daima.
As soon as they settled that, Super continuation happened like everyone knew it would.

None of you conspiracy stuff about declaring a "wildcare" timeline is true. From reading your comments, it's obvious you just came up with that because you dislike Super and want to find any possible way to devalue it in the eyes of others.

That said, obviously the canon is fluid, this isn't atrophysics, or science, where things are objectively true. You can consider as part of your "personal canon" whatever stories you want, Super, GT, Daima, or just the original manga, up to you, it doesn't matter, pick your own adventure.

But pretending that the story "ended 30 years ago" is just untrue, the manga did, not the story. New stories have been made and will be made, and nothing will change that.

[ma0u]

Toei has been the money maker since 1986, even before the series was redistributed to the west—that's always been the case. Otherwise yes, Toei and Bandai make the majority income for products, games, cards etc. for the IP.

Also there has never been any type of settlement between Iyoku and Shueisha. Shueisha didn't get what they want, CC Tokyo is still the main shareholder of all new anime, movies, games, toys, while Shonen Jump (who Toyotaro still works for) separately own only the manga.

Toriyama stood by Iyoku and choose him as his heir apparent to the IP after passing. Super is not being continued, CC Tokyo is just re-cashing in on everything from Beerus arc until at least Moro with what seems to be higher quality material and animation.

[ma0u]

None the less, what I'm saying isn't a 'conspiracy theory', Age 775-783 have always indeed been considered the 21st century wildcard timeline since the release of Yo, Son Goku and Friends Return in 2008. Ever since then, all 21st century Dragon Ball related Toei movies (BoG and Res F timelines), series (Super anime and manga timelines, and Daima anime) as well as the other specials (like the One Piece x Dragon Ball special) and releases also fall in between this time period.

Does that devalue the Age 775-783 Post Buu/Pre EoZ period timeline from a long perspective of the timeline going from Age 749 to Age 889? Yes, in a way it does make the timeline feel like a more 'loose' multi-canon period, as it's become the most ambiguous period of the series with the largest number of different outcomes. Still, all of them still end at the same point, which is with the 28th Tenkaichi Budoukai where Goku and Uub leave mid fight and go to train. Yes, new stories will be made, but no matter how many new multiverse challenges and new God ki transformations are introduced at the end of the day, Goku and Bulma still meet at this point in Age 784 to talk about how long it's been since they last spoke while making note of how peaceful and nonchalant life has been since Buu's death. https://www.kanzenshuu.com/manga/db/chp-518/

Doesn't mean fans like myself won't continue to follow the series and tune in for any new Dragon Ball content that comes out, but ultimately understand that lore wise there's no new stories around the corner for the Dragon Ball lore (aside from maybe small bits of Age 1000—still, much different).

Also I believe Iyoku isn't going to try to over capitalize the series like Shueisha did, and instead just fine tune the wildcard material that's already been released 2 or 3 times. Especially now that we know everything being released is mostly a remaster of Beerus to ToP. Everything after that (aside from Broly and Cell Max) have yet to be seen animated; unfortunately though, even for the anticipated animated version of post-ToP arcs around the corner there won't be the same level of mystery appeal and suspense based on surprise like DBS Broly, DBS Super Hero or Daima were, since Galactic Patrol, Moro, Granolah and Black Freeza were released over 4-8 years ago anyways.