Dragon Ball / Z 40th Project AI - opinions and discussion

[SylentEcho]

Has anybody seen this?

https://www.youtube.com/@40thproject-ai

The people at this channel have apparently trained an AI specifically for Dragon Ball and are up-scaling the entire series to 4k, while preserving grain. They're using the SOM colour-corrected release as the base for their work. They have a few episodes out, too.

I'm interested to see everyone's reaction to this one. Could this finally be what we've been waiting for - something close to the look of the original master tapes?

[The Dark Knight]

I think the version Seed of Might released in 480P looks perfect as it is, so I'm personally not interested in any of these upscale projects. One of the reasons for my lack of interest is due to my belief that no matter how good an AI upscale is, it'll still make mistakes along the way, mistakes I don't have to deal with in the original 480P version. Could these programs improve to the point where said mistakes are avoided ? I guess so, but as of now, I'll stick with what's been released by SoM.

[jjgp1112]

The 40th Project s doing their own CC, not using SoM unless something changed recently. Neo-Raws is doing a better version actually based on the Seed of Might CC; the 40th project has a little bit of nonsense going on with it like the project lead wanting to replace the eyecatch with a 40th Project splash screen lmao

[JulieYBM]

Using AI is lame and bad. Hot take, I know, but dang, why does this just come across as some sort of grift? You want to celebrate Dragon Ball's anniversary? Go make something yourself. Hell, make an original work unconnected to the IP, that's an even better way of celebrating Dragon Ball.

[SylentEcho]

The 40th Project s doing their own CC, not using SoM unless something changed recently. Neo-Raws is doing a better version actually based on the Seed of Might CC; the 40th project has a little bit of nonsense going on with it like the project lead wanting to replace the eyecatch with a 40th Project splash screen lmao

Neo-Raws? I'm having a hard time finding where they're posting their content, but thanks a lot for the tip. Also, if 40th really plans on doing that, nobody's going to support that release, not even their native country for which they're prioritizing this remaster that just so happens to contain other dubs/subs, lol

Using AI is lame and bad. Hot take, I know, but dang, why does this just come across as some sort of grift? You want to celebrate Dragon Ball's anniversary? Go make something yourself. Hell, make an original work unconnected to the IP, that's an even better way of celebrating Dragon Ball.

I'm not too keen on A.I either, but something trained specifically for Dragon Ball, based on what the fans want, sounds promising.

[ThunderPX]

Using AI is lame and bad. Hot take, I know, but dang, why does this just come across as some sort of grift? You want to celebrate Dragon Ball's anniversary? Go make something yourself. Hell, make an original work unconnected to the IP, that's an even better way of celebrating Dragon Ball.

There's nothing wrong with using AI for something like this since it's a) not generative, and b) since it's custom-made, is presumably run locally instead of making use of environmentally destructive data centers. And how is this a grift? Unless I'm missing something, there's no money being exchanged here. I don't think there's really anything wrong with celebrating a show's anniversary by creating a neat new way to watch it.

[Shaddy]

I generally agree with most anti-Neural Net arguments, but far and away the strongest one is just that it can't be trusted. A lot of this stuff is selling smoke, and while I don't know that it's necessarily impossible that either this or Neo-Raws will release all 508 episodes and 3 specials that aired on TV or whatever, it's such a large number that imagining that happening without significant artifacts is kind of a pipe dream. For comparison, the best release Classic Dragon Ball got in many fans eyes was the AB Groupe Blu-Ray, and that only covered one chunk of the series, still had some minor imperfections, and got canceled, and that was done by professionals working for actual money.

AI upscaling is among the less-terrible uses of it, but it's still ultimately kind of selling a lie. AI image, audio and video generation is mostly complete hideous dogshit, but upscaled textures for old games and footage almost always has some waxy, warbly quality to it that betrays how it's not really the thing you liked before in HD, but just some complicated math trying its best and sticking out. So to answer your question Julie, the reason that it feels like a grift is because they have all this bluster and spectacle in their youtube ads, but these things always start out as big promises, and then don't deliver. They either take too long to refine (because NNs can't actually produce stable images very well) or they just throw it into gigapixel and call that a remaster.

Now, that being said, this is a free project made on locally-run models, and the smattering of results they've shown don't look immediately terrible, but who knows how much cleanup that's required in the background that we're not seeing. I would love for someone else to check one of the full episodes they've uploaded (which I'm not sure if anyone here has actually gone to their site to see they have already done 16 episodes of Classic and 6 of Z) and check whether the image quality is actually consistent. I'm not waiting hours on end to download these giant files. At least SoM's is a torrent.

In short, I don't think it's necessarily doing wrong for them to try this, but it's healthy to be skeptical about anything that tries to sell you too hard on neural nets. I don't even like calling it AI, that's kind of inherently propagandizing the idea that it is actually intelligent and not just a lot of numbers matching with other numbers.

[Hydrus]

Has anybody seen this?

https://www.youtube.com/@40thproject-ai

The people at this channel have apparently trained an AI specifically for Dragon Ball and are up-scaling the entire series to 4k, while preserving grain. They're using the SOM colour-corrected release as the base for their work. They have a few episodes out, too.

I'm interested to see everyone's reaction to this one. Could this finally be what we've been waiting for - something close to the look of the original master tapes?

They lied to actual voice actors and claimed it was a legit project. (LATAM VA's wore their merch) Also some of their members are a bit hostile. I don't support 40th based on those merits but I hope they can churn out something decent along with Neo-Raws.

[SylentEcho]

They lied to actual voice actors and claimed it was a legit project. (LATAM VA's wore their merch) Also some of their members are a bit hostile. I don't support 40th based on those merits but I hope they can churn out something decent along with Neo-Raws.

I don't understand. Are you saying they're crowd-funding and have no intention of completing the whole series?

the 40th project has a little bit of nonsense going on with it like the project lead wanting to replace the eyecatch with a 40th Project splash screen lmao

So, I just saw it - right after the eyecatch, there's a 40th Project logo, but that wasn't so bad. Watching this remaster on a proper 4k T.V was really a crazy experience, I must say. It really looked like the Cels came to life.

Neo-Raws is doing a good job, too, but they don't seem to have a plan and are doing random episodes. I can't see any post where they've mentioned about an entire series remaster.

[SylentEcho]

Here's a little comparison between Neo-Raws and 40th:

https://www.diffchecker.com/image-compare/JnDUzO7e/

Zoom in and use the slider tab. What does everyone think?

[The Dark Knight]

A lot of this stuff is selling smoke, and while I don't know that it's necessarily impossible that either this or Neo-Raws will release all 508 episodes and 3 specials that aired on TV or whatever, it's such a large number that imagining that happening without significant artifacts is kind of a pipe dream.

It took Seed of Might close to 7 years to do everything properly, so if these teams intended to give these releases the same attention to detail that Seed of Might did, then it's going to be an extremely long wait for either to be completed.

[ThunderPX]

Here's a little comparison between Neo-Raws and 40th:

https://www.diffchecker.com/image-compare/JnDUzO7e/

Zoom in and use the slider tab. What does everyone think?

Which is which? The one on the right has much nicer colors, but the lines on the left one feel clearer... some of them do look pretty blotchy but I had to zoom in way further than I'd actually be watching the show to notice.

[Metalwario64]

Here's a little comparison between Neo-Raws and 40th:

https://www.diffchecker.com/image-compare/JnDUzO7e/

Zoom in and use the slider tab. What does everyone think?

Which is which? The one on the right has much nicer colors, but the lines on the left one feel clearer... some of them do look pretty blotchy but I had to zoom in way further than I'd actually be watching the show to notice.

I don't even need to check my copies. Just looking I can tell the right is the 40th and left is the SOM upscale. The fucking colors are blown out (especially the yellows) on the right, and the white balance is worse than the DBOX footage with a very strong orange tint. Trash in my eyes.

[sangofe]

Using AI is lame and bad. Hot take, I know, but dang, why does this just come across as some sort of grift? You want to celebrate Dragon Ball's anniversary? Go make something yourself. Hell, make an original work unconnected to the IP, that's an even better way of celebrating Dragon Ball.

That's what happens when Toei doesn't care. Several people want to watch in HD. And AB's releases were decent. So are these upscales and another group upscaling.

[ThunderPX]

Here's a little comparison between Neo-Raws and 40th:

https://www.diffchecker.com/image-compare/JnDUzO7e/

Zoom in and use the slider tab. What does everyone think?

Which is which? The one on the right has much nicer colors, but the lines on the left one feel clearer... some of them do look pretty blotchy but I had to zoom in way further than I'd actually be watching the show to notice.

I don't even need to check my copies. Just looking I can tell the right is the 40th and left is the SOM upscale. The fucking colors are blown out (especially the yellows) on the right, and the white balance is worse than the DBOX footage with a very strong orange tint. Trash in my eyes.

Neat!

[Metalwario64]

Yeah that's my stance. I don't like fully generative AI, but as a tool to create and enhance things? This is exactly the thing it's best for. The official rights holders refuse to give us something of this quality even though they could, so AI is perfect to allow fans to do what the official companies refuse to do.

[SylentEcho]

After watching upscales by three different groups, I have a few thoughts.

40th Project makes great use of colour and looks the best on T.V (4k), despite lacking a bit of the detail that Neo-Raws does. These tiny bits of detail aren't noticeable while watching, despite being quite evident in screenshots.

Neo-Raws is a bit too dark tinted. Everything looks like it's happening at 6 or 7pm. It feels like the gamma could use some adjusting and for some reason, Raditz's armour has the exact same shade as Goku's gi, which me think there might be a few more oversights as well. Episode 95 (especially) and a few other Cel-based episodes look great.

DBD-Raws on a T.V was the absolute worst! They seem to be using rudimentary methods to upscale SOM's release to 1080p. It looks like it's come out of a very basic model and for some reason, the colours are a bit blinding and pop too much. This group is also charging money for episodes 108-291 and that's appalling, given the quality. What they're doing, anyone can do, using a basic AI upscaler.

[ChouGenkiDama.]

Neo-Raws is a bit too dark tinted. Everything looks like it's happening at 6 or 7pm. It feels like the gamma could use some adjusting and for some reason, Raditz's armour has the exact same shade as Goku's gi, which me think there might be a few more oversights as well. Episode 95 (especially) and a few other Cel-based episodes look great.

Neo's upscale is technically superior to the 40th on multiple levels. Aside from using Seed of Might's more accurate, color corrected version of the series, the model they're using was extensively trained to emulate actual 16mm broadcast prints of Dragon Ball episodes. This means everything from the line work rendering to the grain field texture is authentic to how a genuine HD restoration would look. And as you've already pointed out, their renders visibly preserve more fine detail.

The darker brightness levels are due to the Dragon Box source masters, and in turn Toei's decision to not have Pony Canyon adjust them when originally remastering the series 23+ years ago. I do not personally find it to be much of an issue for most episodes. Certainly nothing like the regular level fluctuations present in original DB. And the one you chose to compare here (episode 2) is also one the most problematic out of the entire series run. However, since you have a 4K television, my advice would be to switch from "cinema" to "custom" viewing mode and then set dynamic contrast to low. This helped a great deal on my display.

DBD-Raws [/b]on a T.V was the absolute worst! They seem to be using rudimentary methods to upscale SOM's release to 1080p. It looks like it's come out of a very basic model and for some reason, the colours are a bit blinding and pop too much. This group is also charging money for episodes 108-291 and that's appalling, given the quality. What they're doing, anyone can do, using a basic AI upscales.

Yes this is an incredibly sloppy upscale even by Topaz standards. Clearly rushed out the gate and performed by someone with a poor understanding of the program. I personally abandoned my own upscale endeavors after comparing my output against Neo's, but even so was able to achieve dramatically better results than this mess. They are also withholding episodes in hopes of luring people onto their discord server, which I've read has paid access tiers. Needless to say: AVOID DBD-Raws.

They lied to actual voice actors and claimed it was a legit project. (LATAM VA's wore their merch) Also some of their members are a bit hostile. I don't support 40th based on those merits but I hope they can churn out something decent along with Neo-Raws.

Everything about the 40th project just gives me the ick. Between the tacky, ego-driven choice to shoehorn their logo into the actual episodes, the conscious misrepresenting of themselves to voice actors, the merch-pushing followed by outright denials that they even sell merch to begin with... it's just one thing after another. The project head also liberally bans anyone from the 40th's server who dares question him, which speaks for itself.

In the end none of this matters though since the 40th project itself is unlikely to see completion. Not at their current output rate of a single episode per-month, anyway.