Non-thread-worthy discussions

[LoganForkHands73]

Broly was a visual spectacle, no one will argue against that, but what did it bring to the table in terms of the story ?

Broly is a movie about generational influence and the importance of having independence from that influence. This theme has been pointed out and discussed ad infinitum over the years, and is rather easy to identify because mainline Dragon Ball is written to convey its morals through the juxtaposition of its characters and in simplistic, digestible ways. Dissecting it all would require some lengthy posts, several of which I've already made myself, but LoganForkHands73 posted a good distillation of it here.

All of this is straight from Toriyama's script, by the way. I like Nagamine and find that he gives the movie a more "filmic" vibe than other material (for lack of a better word) but to its detriment, his directing does occasionally clash with the dry comedic timing that makes DB's humor work. But it's the story/script that truly carries it, for me.

On the other hand, Super Hero is a funny one because it has my favorite direction of all the revival movies and yet probably my least favorite script.

I would have loved to see the original concept realised without that interference.

Same, frankly. What we got, I enjoyed well enough – especially coming off the back of a manga arc I found egregiously disappointing – but the actual story is a surprising letdown compared to most of the scripts we got from Toriyama.

Ah thanks for the shout out dog, I just stumbled upon this thread while looking for more critical takes about Super Hero. Because man, I’ve started to think that it may be one of the weaker Dragon Ball films, even with Toriyama’s charming screenplay.

Something that rarely gets mentioned is how forgettable the Gamma twins turned out to be. These guys are built up as the primary physical threats for the first 2/3rds of the film, yet it’s really hard to take them as seriously as Piccolo. I kinda hate how the conflict with them just fizzles out because it’s all based around a dumb misunderstanding. I liked their designs and overall concept as misguided superheroes, but they fall into the common trap of only feeling like half a decent character each. I get that if they were gonna kill one of them off, Gamma #2 would have the biggest emotional impact because he’s the one with the more vibrant personality, but that leaves us with the stoic and boring Gamma #1 hanging out at Capsule Corp. And nobody really cares what will happen to him after this.

[JulieYBM]

I was thinking about it and it really hit me that both Broly (Z) and Broly (Super) would be so hot as women. One could destroy you with her overflowing ki and the other could be such a cute wife >_<

Something that rarely gets mentioned is how forgettable the Gamma twins turned out to be. These guys are built up as the primary physical threats for the first 2/3rds of the film, yet it’s really hard to take them as seriously as Piccolo. I kinda hate how the conflict with them just fizzles out because it’s all based around a dumb misunderstanding. I liked their designs and overall concept as misguided superheroes, but they fall into the common trap of only feeling like half a decent character each. I get that if they were gonna kill one of them off, Gamma #2 would have the biggest emotional impact because he’s the one with the more vibrant personality, but that leaves us with the stoic and boring Gamma #1 hanging out at Capsule Corp. And nobody really cares what will happen to him after this.

Yeah, definitely concur with this. Super Hero is a lot like Ressurection F in how these films illuminate how Toriyama's writing is very safe. With Battle of Gods, the story was still filtered through another writer's vision and dialogue and then Nagamine had a hand in directing Super: Broly, so his sensibilities as a storyteller peak through a bit to help smooth it out, but Ressurection F, Super Hero and Daima are all projects that have weak directoral vision from first-time directors who seem to have all been hired less because they had a real vision and more because they wouldn't rock the boat. Heck, Hosoda Masahiro was probably given the Battle of Gods directing gig for the same reason (albeit, we know he was brought on specifically by Morishita Kouzou because of their affiliation).

Gamma #1 having an arc that could be fulfilled by #2's death would have been a good way of making Gamma #2's death feel like it had real weight to it, too. At least do the bare minimum of showing that Gamma #1's next character beat is to discover his own individuality and interests!

[Mr Baggins]

Something that rarely gets mentioned is how forgettable the Gamma twins turned out to be. These guys are built up as the primary physical threats for the first 2/3rds of the film, yet it’s really hard to take them as seriously as Piccolo. I kinda hate how the conflict with them just fizzles out because it’s all based around a dumb misunderstanding.

The irony of the Gammas is that they're among the closest attempts Toriyama ever made at writing straitlaced, traditionally heroic superheroes... which isn't his forte. His character writing stands out because his characters are flawed, and his archetypes always feature some twist of some kind.

Of course, I'd never condemn creatives for trying something a little different than what they're accustomed to (Broly is more thematically adult than usual for a Toriyama script, while Daima is exceptionally political) but this wasn't a very compelling use case for my liking. The Gammas' "arc" consists of following their heroic instincts rather than listening to authority figures merely because they were told it was heroic, and there's not much more to it.

[BernardoCairo]

With Battle of Gods, the story was still filtered through another writer's vision and dialogue

From what has been said in interviews, Toriyama did not just make small revisions to Battle of Gods. He ended up rewriting the story so extensively that he effectively replaced the original screenplay. He even mentioned feeling a bit sorry for the initial screenwriter because he discarded most of that work. In the end, Toei received a complete script from Toriyama himself, not just notes or minor adjustments.
So while there may have been earlier concepts for what Battle of Gods could have been, the finished film is very much Toriyama’s own vision. It reflects his writing style, humor, and approach to the characters far more directly than many of the older anime projects did.
He also changed the tone after the 2011 earthquake and tsunami in Japan. Rather than going for something darker or more intense, he chose to make the story lighter and more optimistic. That tonal shift is a big part of why the movie feels different from some of the later Z era material.

But indeed, he was always an author who worked well with collaborative projects and ideas that came from other people.

[kiarasuraru]

With Battle of Gods, the story was still filtered through another writer's vision and dialogue

From what has been said in interviews, Toriyama did not just make small revisions to Battle of Gods. He ended up rewriting the story so extensively that he effectively replaced the original screenplay. He even mentioned feeling a bit sorry for the initial screenwriter because he discarded most of that work. In the end, Toei received a complete script from Toriyama himself, not just notes or minor adjustments.
So while there may have been earlier concepts for what Battle of Gods could have been, the finished film is very much Toriyama’s own vision. It reflects his writing style, humor, and approach to the characters far more directly than many of the older anime projects did.
He also changed the tone after the 2011 earthquake and tsunami in Japan. Rather than going for something darker or more intense, he chose to make the story lighter and more optimistic. That tonal shift is a big part of why the movie feels different from some of the later Z era material.

But indeed, he was always an author who worked well with collaborative projects and ideas that came from other people.

People loathe to admit it and love to pretend otherwise and act like if Toriyama could do no wrong whatsoever, but it's clear to anyone with eyes that Toriyama was the kind of creative that needed someone hovering over his shoulder, either to push him to do more or to keep him in check, for his idiosyncrasies to truly click.

BoG was an exception among exceptions since that one time he was fueled by the unending butthurt he gained from Evolution. And it's really really easy to notice that fire he'd caught there had long since become ashes by the time F came around.

[PhantomSaiyan]

People loathe to admit it and love to pretend otherwise and act like if Toriyama could do no wrong whatsoever, but it's clear to anyone with eyes that Toriyama was the kind of creative that needed someone hovering over his shoulder, either to push him to do more or to keep him in check, for his idiosyncrasies to truly click.

BoG was an exception among exceptions since that one time he was fueled by the unending butthurt he gained from Evolution. And it's really really easy to notice that fire he'd caught there had long since become ashes by the time F came around.

People should really read his one shot collection to understand what his style looks like when it's left untouched, not enough people do that.

Hell, Daima itself pretty much feels like one of his one shots but stretched over twenty episodes. His writing is very safe, he has his favorite tropes that falls back on over and over again, the tone is incredibly lighthearted and unserious, the plot is super simple, and is mainly a setup for comedic situations that he wants to draw..

Dragon Ball was only as good as it was because he was pushed by his editors. Not saying I dislike Toriyama's style by itself without outside interference, but it's nowhere near as good as what he can achieve when he has some guidance.

It's really funny though that the guy who just wanted to draw the silliest shit imaginable ended up creating all of those really tense and iconic moments/fights, it's like one of those stories where the least suitable guy gets chosen to do a task, and against all odds ends up smashing it out of the park better than anyone ever could

[Scsigs]

Yeah, some of Toriyama's one-shots are...really weird. Although I don't know about all of them, the 1 that I DO know about is the one about a chick named Angela who gets sexually assaulted so much that she just decides to become a hooker as a job. Now, I can see that being funny in a dark humor way (hell, that might not be out of the realm for a show like South Park, which absolutely writhes in dark comedy), but that gives you a perfect picture of how dark Toriyama could get with his humor. To the point where that specific shit would not fly today in a world where sexual assault is taken way more seriously.

As for his storytelling when he doesn't have anyone over his head like his editors, I'd say yes & no to it being worse than if he was just left to his own devices. It really depends on how motivated he was to tell the story & when he wrote said stories.
Battle of Gods was definitely a story he wanted to tell because he retrofitted an already developed story & new characters into his mold, changing what he felt he needed to to fit his universe & writing style. And we all know he did because he hated Evolution. He didn't have anyone over his head telling him what to do.
Super: Broly also turned out pretty good & he didn't have anyone over his head, just that someone suggested he reboot Broly since he's popular overseas. And he managed to make even the most hardened Broly haters like the new version of him.
Plus, Super Hero was also very good. The only note he got on it was to add Gohan as a secondary protagonist, but he wanted to tell a story with Piccolo as the main character, which turned out really good.
I'd also go on to argue that Super would be a worthy sequel to the manga & Z...if it was fully written & fleshed out by Toriyama with some help by a few other writers who could help him remember & keep track of the moving parts as well as tell him when his decisions were fucking stupid like, oh I don't know, making Goku not know what kisses are & the fact that he fucked Chichi multiple times to get her pregnant with their kids without kisses for a joke that neither makes sense nor is very funny, or the entire ending of the Future Trunks arc, or the immense lack of any kind of tension in Resurrection F. However, if you pay attention to what Toriyama set up with Goku & Vegeta having character arcs to improve themselves & overcome their deficiencies in battle, then see how they connect to Goku getting Ultra Instinct & Vegeta getting Ultra Ego, or maybe even Blue Evolved, there's a clear progression that was being told by Toriyama. It's just that they get kinda muddled & left behind a bit by the day to day writing of the show where they don't focus on it much & write Goku like he lost a bunch of IQ points after Buu.

On the other hand, yeah, Toriyama not having someone keeping him in check is definitely a big disadvantage at times.
The Buu Arc of the manga suffers from this a LOT, as Toriyama clearly had a bunch of ideas he wanted to do after starting off the arc pretty well, tbh, but had no idea how to properly execute them, so the arc drags way too much & ends up repeating a few things multiple times. Like Fusion with Goten & Trunks being trained to use it, but Buu gains the ability to absorb people (which the last villain did), then a different form of Fusion is introduced to temporarily make Goku & Vegeta even MORE powerful, then Buu changes forms twice to bring a new challenge (which the last 2 villains did too) until it ends.
Resurrection F was also a bad movie that someone above Toriyama would've told him had no tension & to rewrite chunks of it to make it better. As well to give the Future Trunks Arc a better ending.
Then in Daima, someone above him probably would've asked where the hell the Fusion Bugs are, then about why he made Vegeta go SS3, then told him to rewrite SS4 so it doesn't come right the fuck out of nowhere through a bullshit power-up from Neva. Even GT did a decent build-up to SS4 for Goku.

And, just to say this, I don't think Toriyama was the best storyteller ever, but I would've rather have him on board with new installments than not. He was the lifeblood & soul of Dragon Ball & he often did more good than bad, but he did more good through a collaborative effort with his editors when writing the manga.

[The Dark Knight]

I don't think Toriyama was the best storyteller ever, but I would've rather have him on board with new installments than not. He was the lifeblood & soul of Dragon Ball & he often did more good than bad, but he did more good through a collaborative effort with his editors when writing the manga.

I have to agree with both points here. In terms of Toriyama's abilities as a writer, he was one of those writers who's output quality relied on who he was collaborating with. Back when he was writing the manga, he had three editors who not only understood what made a story good, but also knew how to get the most out of the writers they were working with. The anime's producers were also not afraid of making changes where they felt the manga was lacking. There's also the fact that back then, he was just another writer, he wasn't "Toriyama sensei", so there was never any issue pushing against or for certain ideas. Fast forward two decades, and the people he was working with grew up with the franchise, so none of them would ever tell him something was bad or needed improving.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Yeah, some of Toriyama's one-shots are...really weird. Although I don't know about all of them, the 1 that I DO know about is the one about a chick named Angela who gets sexually assaulted so much that she just decides to become a hooker as a job. Now, I can see that being funny in a dark humor way (hell, that might not be out of the realm for a show like South Park, which absolutely writhes in dark comedy), but that gives you a perfect picture of how dark Toriyama could get with his humor. To the point where that specific shit would not fly today in a world where sexual assault is taken way more seriously.

That one shot about that girl is one of the worst possible examples lmao luckily the rest of Toriyama's one shots weren't like that. For the most part... The earlier ones often did features girls that were there only to for the purpose of creating pervy gag scenes that aged terribly

But what I meant when I was referring to the qualities of his usual one shots, was mostly referred to his "adventure style" one shots, where a party of characters, usually composed of a really small and strong guy, a big serious guy, and a girl, set off on a generic quest in a fantasy world. Many of his one shots are like that

As for his storytelling when he doesn't have anyone over his head like his editors, I'd say yes & no to it being worse than if he was just left to his own devices. It really depends on how motivated he was to tell the story & when he wrote said stories.

I understand what you mean, I even agree to a certain extent, but mainly when it comes to Dragon Ball. I love the Buu Saga despite all of it's flaws, but it's still something he NEVER would have written if it wasn't Dragon Ball.
Outside of Dragon Ball his manga never feature any kind of serious fight, or stakes that are treated as seriously as they were in DB. The most serious manga I can think of from him other than DB is Sand Land, and even that's not saying much considering that it's still very much a silly story full of gags at the end of the day

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's clear that if there wasn't any push from anyone, Toriyama would never have made an action manga in the first place, it was outside of his comfort zone, as soon as he was done with Dragon Ball he pretty much went back to do what he was doing before and never looked back

Even his muscular characters disappeared as soon as he was done with DB, because he was never personally interested in them in the first place, he just drew them like that because they fit the story. The goody chubby/lean characters from before and after DB are something that is more appealing to him.
It's quite interesting how good he was at doing something that he pretty much never would have tried his hand at if it wasn't for external pressure

[BernardoCairo]

People should really read his one shot collection to understand what his style looks like when it's left untouched, not enough people do that.

True. In fact, I'd say some of his best work came after Dragon Ball, with Kajika, Sand Land, and Jaco being really good. But even some of his pre-Dragon Ball works, like Pink, are very funny.
Toriyama had a very distinct style due to his design background, something that Torishima understood very quickly. But I would say that Dragon Ball was still special to him in some way. Or at least that's what he said, that he had a strong connection with that particular series. He at least gave her more love than he did to Dr. Slump over the years, which could be considered more his "style" at first.

By the way, something that caught my attention about what Scsigs said is that he wasn't actually "Toriyama-sensei" when he was writing Dragon Ball, but he wasn't necessarily just a writer either. At that point, Toriyama was already quite famous and wealthy because of Dr. Slump. He could have stopped there, but I believe he wanted to continue because of his work ethic.

[PhantomSaiyan]

True. In fact, I'd say some of his best work came after Dragon Ball, with Kajika, Sand Land, and Jaco being really good. But even some of his pre-Dragon Ball works, like Pink, are very funny.
Toriyama had a very distinct style due to his design background, something that Torishima understood very quickly. But I would say that Dragon Ball was still special to him in some way. Or at least that's what he said, that he had a strong connection with that particular series. He at least gave her more love than he did to Dr. Slump over the years, which could be considered more his "style" at first.

By the way, something that caught my attention about what Scsigs said is that he wasn't actually "Toriyama-sensei" when he was writing Dragon Ball, but he wasn't necessarily just a writer either. At that point, Toriyama was already quite famous and wealthy because of Dr. Slump. He could have stopped there, but I believe he wanted to continue because of his work ethic.

Yeah, there's definitely a few factors that would make DB special to him, even ignoring the fact that it made him richer than ever, I imagine that being challenged artistically by doing something outside of his comfort zone, and succeeding massively, must have surely filled him with a sense of pride.

He's still gonna forget that characters like Gotenks existed (that interview is hilarious) but despite that, he could never forget Dragon Ball as a whole that's for sure.

Idk if the reason he continued was "work ethic" though I'm going to be honest lol he was notoriously really lazy and sometimes he finished an entire chapter in one or two nights right before the deadline because he procrastinated the entire week, so I really wonder what is it that kept him going for so long.

[BernardoCairo]

I think it was Torishima himself who said he had a great work ethic. Because he worked in the industry, he was the only mangaka at the time who greeted his editors, did everything to meet deadlines, etc. Apparently, there was a time when he stayed up for 7 nights, having only slept 20 minutes. Heck, there was a time when he was working on Dragon Ball weekly, helping the Toei staff with designs for the films, working on Dragon Quest (which he was very proud of), and doing one-shots. Furthermore, even though he was reserved, he had affection for the fans, so much so that he apologized for ending Dragon Ball at that time.

He started Dragon Ball precisely because his editors would only let him finish Dr. Slump if he created something as good as it (keep in mind that by this point he had even won the award for best mangaka of the year). And it was this series of factors that kept him going for so long.

[PhantomSaiyan]

I think it was Torishima himself who said he had a great work ethic. Because he worked in the industry, he was the only mangaka at the time who greeted his editors, did everything to meet deadlines, etc. Apparently, there was a time when he stayed up for 7 nights, having only slept 20 minutes. Heck, there was a time when he was working on Dragon Ball weekly, helping the Toei staff with designs for the films, working on Dragon Quest (which he was very proud of), and doing one-shots. Furthermore, even though he was reserved, he had affection for the fans, so much so that he apologized for ending Dragon Ball at that time.

He started Dragon Ball precisely because his editors would only let him finish Dr. Slump if he created something as good as it (keep in mind that by this point he had even won the award for best mangaka of the year). And it was this series of factors that kept him going for so long.

he also frequently admitted to being very lazy, and procrastinating all week long only to finish everything at the last possible moment by staying up all night, so which one is it?
Even if he did get shit done, I wouldn't call that great work ethic if it leaves you with only 20 minutes of sleep, though helping out with anime designs, and even videogame designs sometimes on top of drawing weekly chapters is definitely very time consuming, but he wasn't doing that ALL the time

I've read a lot of Toriyama interviews, most of them, and I never recall a single instance of him stating that he has great work ethic, but I'm not omniscent ofc, so I might have just missed it

Rather than having great work ethic, I'd call him highly efficient, in the sense that everything, from his storytelling, down to his artstyle and paneling, is perfectly designed to be as efficient and time saving as possible, maybe that's what he was referring to

[BernardoCairo]

Honestly, I trust Torishima's word, since Toriyama was extremely self-critical (going so far as to say he only liked one of the drawings he did in his entire career). I don't think Toriyama himself would say he had a good work ethic, but I believe his boss. Even if he procrastinated occasionally, the work was extremely demanding, with him saying it usually took him days to finish a chapter of Dr. Slump. And remember that he had to drive the work to the airport only for Torishima to sometimes reject all his ideas hours later. I imagine that was particularly difficult, since he usually got too involved in everything he did. For Dragon Quest, he would draw the monsters, characters, artwork, and then create sketches of how they should look in pixel art.

[Yellow Flower King]

Also Toriyama said he was lazy... while working on the notoriously cruel and abusive manga industry. He cut corners, he took it easy and did things until he got tired of it, but dont forget, Toriyama is only "Lazy" in comparison to other mangaka that really kill themselves working.

[Scsigs]

I have to agree with both points here. In terms of Toriyama's abilities as a writer, he was one of those writers who's output quality relied on who he was collaborating with. Back when he was writing the manga, he had three editors who not only understood what made a story good, but also knew how to get the most out of the writers they were working with. The anime's producers were also not afraid of making changes where they felt the manga was lacking. There's also the fact that back then, he was just another writer, he wasn't "Toriyama sensei", so there was never any issue pushing against or for certain ideas. Fast forward two decades, and the people he was working with grew up with the franchise, so none of them would ever tell him something was bad or needed improving.

Yeah, I think the staff at Toei were also wanting to kowtow to him as well even when his decisions were really stupid. Toriyama comes off more like someone like Takahata101 who likes to go for the jokes than seriousness to their detriment with storytelling.

That one shot about that girl is one of the worst possible examples lmao luckily the rest of Toriyama's one shots weren't like that. For the most part... The earlier ones often did features girls that were there only to for the purpose of creating pervy gag scenes that aged terribly

But what I meant when I was referring to the qualities of his usual one shots, was mostly referred to his "adventure style" one shots, where a party of characters, usually composed of a really small and strong guy, a big serious guy, and a girl, set off on a generic quest in a fantasy world. Many of his one shots are like that

Yeah. His sense of humor could get really dark was my main point. Like, i read the first few chapters of the DB manga & he has a gag where a wolf howls at the moon, then Goku kills & eats it, which I thought was dark as fuck & I loved it. Obviously, these are 2 different types of dark, but you see what I mean.
Yeah. I remember MistareFusion's video on the 2 one shots that were basically pilot mangas for what became Dragon Ball. It's good that he was able to find something that worked.

I understand what you mean, I even agree to a certain extent, but mainly when it comes to Dragon Ball. I love the Buu Saga despite all of it's flaws, but it's still something he NEVER would have written if it wasn't Dragon Ball.
Outside of Dragon Ball his manga never feature any kind of serious fight, or stakes that are treated as seriously as they were in DB. The most serious manga I can think of from him other than DB is Sand Land, and even that's not saying much considering that it's still very much a silly story full of gags at the end of the day

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's clear that if there wasn't any push from anyone, Toriyama would never have made an action manga in the first place, it was outside of his comfort zone, as soon as he was done with Dragon Ball he pretty much went back to do what he was doing before and never looked back

Even his muscular characters disappeared as soon as he was done with DB, because he was never personally interested in them in the first place, he just drew them like that because they fit the story. The goody chubby/lean characters from before and after DB are something that is more appealing to him.
It's quite interesting how good he was at doing something that he pretty much never would have tried his hand at if it wasn't for external pressure

The Buu Arc had a lot of good things going for it. It started off well with reintroducing the world after the 7-year timeskip, I like Videl & her budding relationship with Gohan, & I like the story up until Vegeta's sacrifice. After that, though, is where the story starts making really weird or forced decisions to keep the plot going until it ends. Some good stuff after, but the arc has like 2 different ending points before it finally does & kinda drags in places because a lot of what happens doesn't amount to much.

Yeah, a lot of his designs became more simplistic after he ended DB. I don't think the more muscular character designs were out of his comfort zone, but it was a step away from what he usually did. He did them very well, especially under the deadlines he was under & how much he procrastinated writing new chapters. I also don't think it was due to external pressure. Like, he aged Goku up to an adult because he thought it was the next logical step in his storytelling in DB against what his editors thought he should do, so it's definitely not something he didn't wanna do. He just slowly adapted to it over time.

[The Dark Knight]

The Buu Arc had a lot of good things going for it. It started off well with reintroducing the world after the 7-year timeskip, I like Videl & her budding relationship with Gohan, & I like the story up until Vegeta's sacrifice. After that, though, is where the story starts making really weird or forced decisions to keep the plot going until it ends.

I think the arc was at its weakest when Super Buu was introduced, as everything before and after was really well done. That's not to say the Super Buu portion was necessarily bad, but rather kind of...just there, if that makes sense. There was nothing there that made me say "this is terrible, what's Toriyama doing ?", but you could remove that entire section with minimum changes and the story would remain the same. Also, major credit to Toei for pulling their weight by giving us some of the best art and animation the series had seen up to that point, as well as some of its best choreographed fights. The manga was really lacking in both these departments (art and fights). Considering Toriyama had been writing DB for 8 years by the time the Buu arc started, and Dr. Slump for 5 years before that, I guess it's a miracle the Buu arc turned out as well as it did. If you want to see a final arc that completely shits the bed, go watch Naruto's 4th Great Ninja War.

[Scsigs]

I think the arc was at its weakest when Super Buu was introduced, as everything before and after was really well done. That's not to say the Super Buu portion was necessarily bad, but rather kind of...just there, if that makes sense. There was nothing there that made me say "this is terrible, what's Toriyama doing ?", but you could remove that entire section with minimum changes and the story would remain the same. Also, major credit to Toei for pulling their weight by giving us some of the best art and animation the series had seen up to that point, as well as some of its best choreographed fights. The manga was really lacking in both these departments (art and fights). Considering Toriyama had been writing DB for 8 years by the time the Buu arc started, and Dr. Slump for 5 years before that, I guess it's a miracle the Buu arc turned out as well as it did. If you want to see a final arc that completely shits the bed, go watch Naruto's 4th Great Ninja War.

The whole Super Buu section is full of things that don't really advance the plot of the arc & things just happen until Goku & Vegeta fuse into Vegetto, but even before then after Vegeta sacrifices himself to kill fat Buu, not a lot advances the plot. SS3 Goku VS Buu? Doesn't do much besides buy time & get Buu to kill Babidi (which Goku didn't even really need to do because he can teleport & should've just teleported Trunks to Capsule Corp rather than just had him fly there. I swear, it's just like the moment in DBZA where Goku realizes he can teleport, does, & Gohan asks "Did he just remember he can do that?" then Popo goes, "Your father's an idiot," only without the last few things), which sort of advances the plot, but only so much as gets Babidi out of the way. Then after Super Buu's created, the fusion stuff, while fun, serves not a lot of narrative purpose & neither does the stuff with gohan. It all kinda sucks when taken as a whole.

[ZeroNeonix]

To be fair, Goku planting the idea of rebelling against Babidi allowed it to be Buu's idea to kill him. This allowed him to start his journey of redemption. Goku is a good judge of character, and I think he could tell that Buu was not an agent of evil. That form of Buu is childlike, and just needed a guide (Mr. Satan) to learn how to navigate the world.

The rest of the series does seem like a random series of events, though. When Buu becomes good, what then? Is the threat over? Nope. Someone kills his dog, and he expells the evil from himself, which wins over and becomes Super Buu. I kind of love that, though. The story would have been over, if not for random evil guy with a gun shooting his dog for no reason.

Goku teaches Goten and Trunks how to fuse and how to go SSJ3, because he doesn't want the next generation to rely on him. This leads nowhere, as both they AND Gohan fail to defeat Buu. Fast forward to today, and Goku is still the one saving the world whenever a big threat appears. Goten and Trunks are more useless now than ever. They're a one trick pony, and their trick always fails.

Gohan gets his Ultimate powerup by sitting down and doing nothing, while an old god dances around him. He shows up, kicks Buu's ass, but because of a series of fuckups, gets himself absorbed.

Goku ends up fusing with Vegeta, and they clearly outclass Buu. But instead of finishing him off, they hatch this masterplan to intentionally get absorbed, so they can free the others. They also find Good Buu trapped there and release him in order to weaken Buu. From here, the two COULD easily fuse again and destroy evil Buu, but they choose not to, because it wouldn't be fair. Very in-character for them, but still stupid.

Vegeta comes up with a plan to use the Namekian Dragon Balls. Goku assumes a much smarter plan, where they bring back Gohan to fight with them, but no. His big idea is to talk to all of the Earthlings and hope they'll voluntarily give up their power for a big old Spirit Bomb. This very nearly fails multiple times, until Mr. Satan convinces everyone that HE is the one who needs their power, and they restore Goku's energy, so he can actually push the Spirit Bomb.

It's quite a ride. Very chaotic. It's a constant cycle of coming up with solutions, watching them fail, and coming up with more solutions, until something finally works. I appreciate it for what it is, but it does feel kind of directionless sometimes.

[The Dark Knight]

It's quite a ride. Very chaotic. It's a constant cycle of coming up with solutions, watching them fail, and coming up with more solutions, until something finally works. I appreciate it for what it is, but it does feel kind of directionless sometimes.

Here's a more positive way to look at how things played out with Buu: He was the final villain of the story, wouldn't it have been disappointing if he went down easily ? The chaotic nature may look directionless at first glance, but it actually makes sense for the final villain of the story to be the hardest to get rid of. During an interview with Toriyama for the 30th anniversary book, he said that one of the reasons he ended the manga when he did was because he couldn't think of a way to introduce a stronger villain, and when you look at how hard it was to take Buu down, he makes a good point. It took everyone and the kitchen sink to bring him down, and despite countless villains showing up after, be it in GT, Super, and Daima, none of them were anywhere near as hard to defeat as Buu was.