Unpopular DB opinions

[BernardoCairo]

It's also a lot easier to look at a story that already exists and think of how it could've been more effective than it is to come up with something from scratch. Like, I personally think Vegeta could've had an even stronger character arc in the Cell arc if he didn't acquire Super Saiyan until END of the arc when Cell kills Trunks, but I'm coming from a position with decades worth of hindsight. There's no was Toriyama ever could've planned for anything like that at the time of writing it.

I disagree. I believe that the fact that he became a Super Saiyajin and yet was brutally massacred throughout almost the entire arc (largely due to his own decisions) is more in line with what Toriyama was planning for Vegeta at the time. There was no heroism or even a sense of care for the people he loved. Vegeta was pure ego, and being humiliated by father and son even after trying so hard culminated in the development he received in the Boo saga.

[DanielSSJ]

I disagree. I believe that the fact that he became a Super Saiyajin and yet was brutally massacred throughout almost the entire arc (largely due to his own decisions) is more in line with what Toriyama was planning for Vegeta at the time. There was no heroism or even a sense of care for the people he loved. Vegeta was pure ego, and being humiliated by father and son even after trying so hard culminated in the development he received in the Boo saga.

- Given some of the ways Super Saiyan is written in the previous arc (the pure of heart thing, Goku's sparing of Freeza proving Vegeta was entirely wrong about the Super Saiyan being the most bloodthirsty and ruthless thing in the universe, etc), I'm not very fond of how Vegeta acquires it before he's gone through any character growth and is still essentially pure evil.

- I also think making Vegeta's character arc be about him being left on the sidelines and being bitter as fuck about it, and tying the moment he finally achieves Super Saiyan with the death of Trunks would heighten the tragedy of it all and lead to a lot of delicious character drama between him and Trunks. Vegeta gets the opportunity to bond with Trunks, much like how Piccolo did with Gohan in the Saiyan arc, but lets his own resentment get in the way at every step. It's only after Trunks dies that he realizes what a fool he's been and finds the spark needed to become a Super Saiyan. He finally achieved what he wanted more than anything, but it it cost him everything. And it's too little too late, Cell still swats him like a bug. Vegeta's only consolation is that Super Saiyan gave him just enough power to distract Cell, allowing Gohan to take the win. He finishes the arc by throwing away his pride to play a supporting role for someone else.

[dbgtFO]

Double posting bc the two unpopular takes are so unrelated.

GT is better dubbed with the Menza score, and I say this as someone who prefers the Japanese version for everything else.

The corny dated approach actually improves GT and sometimes the dub makes legitimate corrections to the plot that didn't make sense in the original. Tokunaga score also had placement issues. The Menza score is a little dry but you never have things like Goku and Trunks raiding the villains' hideout in a moment that's supposed to be tense, while the most lighthearted rearrangement of the ed plays in the background, undercutting the intended atmosphere of the whole scene.

GT's awful music placement is not something that gets spoken about often. It's almost as bad as early Super.

Well that's certainly an interesting take!
I already dislike GT as it is and the music and music placement is also a big part of that.
Much like Daima, I can barely recall any musical tracks from JP GT other than the orchestral versions of the opening and how it was used poorly throughout the show.
Was there even any notable battle music?
It all sounded so dated and boring, but fron the little I watched from the english dub, I don't recall it being better.
In there it's just the same guitar riff over and over again, but it's been too long, so perhaps it could do with another look.

[kprison]

. Was there even any notable battle music?

Nope! You can tell exactly what happened there too. They brought Tokunaga on thinking this show was going to be, like, Goku meets Star Trek Voyager, and by the time the show was clearly not going to be that, well into production, everything was such a mess that they didn't bother bringing him back, they just had to make do.

The closest thing GT ever gets to new music partway through is the Path to Power score getting reused.

From the little I watched from the english dub, I don't recall it being better.

When I say Menza is better, what I mean is, the music is still nothing special, but it's not *bad.* It's like most scores, it's "good enough" without being memorable. Tokunaga's score is bad, if you remove the rearrangements of the first OP and ED there's just *nothing* there.

[ABED]

Double posting bc the two unpopular takes are so unrelated.

GT is better dubbed with the Menza score, and I say this as someone who prefers the Japanese version for everything else.

The corny dated approach actually improves GT and sometimes the dub makes legitimate corrections to the plot that didn't make sense in the original. Tokunaga score also had placement issues. The Menza score is a little dry but you never have things like Goku and Trunks raiding the villains' hideout in a moment that's supposed to be tense, while the most lighthearted rearrangement of the ed plays in the background, undercutting the intended atmosphere of the whole scene.

GT's awful music placement is not something that gets spoken about often. It's almost as bad as early Super.

Well that's certainly an interesting take!
I already dislike GT as it is and the music and music placement is also a big part of that.
Much like Daima, I can barely recall any musical tracks from JP GT other than the orchestral versions of the opening and how it was used poorly throughout the show.
Was there even any notable battle music?
It all sounded so dated and boring, but fron the little I watched from the english dub, I don't recall it being better.
In there it's just the same guitar riff over and over again, but it's been too long, so perhaps it could do with another look.

Interesting because I find the dub GT score to unmemorable for the most part, whereas GT's score is one of the biggest positives of the series. It doesn't go with the GT dub, though. Everything about the dub feels like FUNi realizing it's reputation as a mediocre show was deserved and tried to cover it up by making it grim and dark with everything from a droning and overly serious narrator to to the self serious score. But it's all of a piece. Hearing the original score combined with the self-serious narrator is amusing.

[kprison]

I find the dub GT score to unmemorable for the most part, whereas GT's score is one of the biggest positives of the series.

What tracks would you say convey action or tension the best?

I have a theory that most people with a positive view of the original GT score are only remembering the rearrangements and maybe a half dozen or less "atmospheric" tracks.

But those aren't what's actually playing most of the time. GT has over 100 tracks and most of them sound a lot more like this: https://youtu.be/dAab666R-uI?si=fPoHKUFjqbf7lXuS

Or this: https://youtu.be/rXx47uYJ6XE?si=zh14MLcJPOoVoYJG

Then with an action scene you'll have all the tension bleed out like a stuck pig with tracks like this: https://youtu.be/iZf9V7ybbzQ?si=Nkt-we8lBJdrGWHU

Or this: https://youtu.be/UzAdaQU0cu0?si=U-0ESfrkgvBxCp_3

The comedy tracks are insufferable

https://youtu.be/Z73wfB6EnYU?si=nG94ISevoj8mXWgH
https://youtu.be/uxVtbrgslDw?si=SzIZhc3SH0bxYCO1

Maybe if they NEVER used any of these one could say "well you're cherry picking" but this is half the damn show, they use these tracks during crucial moments, and I can't even blame them because if you removed all the bad tracks, you wouldn't have any variety left from episode to episode.

Ideally they'd have kept Kikuchi on, even if they just reused the old tracks. Menza almost wins by default, his tracks aren't even as edgy as people say. It's just mid. He also did some of the movies and they're mid too. Everything Menza did was mid, but acceptable,.

[BernardoCairo]

- Given some of the ways Super Saiyan is written in the previous arc (the pure of heart thing, Goku's sparing of Freeza proving Vegeta was entirely wrong about the Super Saiyan being the most bloodthirsty and ruthless thing in the universe, etc), I'm not very fond of how Vegeta acquires it before he's gone through any character growth and is still essentially pure evil.

- I also think making Vegeta's character arc be about him being left on the sidelines and being bitter as fuck about it, and tying the moment he finally achieves Super Saiyan with the death of Trunks would heighten the tragedy of it all and lead to a lot of delicious character drama between him and Trunks. Vegeta gets the opportunity to bond with Trunks, much like how Piccolo did with Gohan in the Saiyan arc, but lets his own resentment get in the way at every step. It's only after Trunks dies that he realizes what a fool he's been and finds the spark needed to become a Super Saiyan. He finally achieved what he wanted more than anything, but it it cost him everything. And it's too little too late, Cell still swats him like a bug. Vegeta's only consolation is that Super Saiyan gave him just enough power to distract Cell, allowing Gohan to take the win. He finishes the arc by throwing away his pride to play a supporting role for someone else.

I see your point, but I don’t think another Saiyajin awakening the Super form through a traumatic or emotional moment would’ve been that interesting by then. What I like about Vegeta’s first transformation is how different it feels from Goku’s. When Vegeta becomes a Super Saiyajin, he’s in control and actually enjoying himself. There’s no dread or sorrow attached to it, because this is everything he ever wanted. He was obsessed with reaching that level.
What makes it even better is that he awakens it through the realization that he couldn’t. That failure hits him harder than any single death would have. His pride is everything. He believed he was invincible, at his absolute peak. In his mind, this was his ideal self, similar to how Cell viewed his Perfect Form. So when Android 18 shows up and completely outclasses him, it shatters his fantasy in the most brutal way possible.
From that point on, he’s always chasing more power, always trying to prove himself. And yet he keeps falling short, even after becoming the very thing he spent his life striving for. That’s what makes his arc so compelling to me.

[DanielSSJ]

I see your point, but I don’t think another Saiyajin awakening the Super form through a traumatic or emotional moment would’ve been that interesting by then. What I like about Vegeta’s first transformation is how different it feels from Goku’s. When Vegeta becomes a Super Saiyajin, he’s in control and actually enjoying himself. There’s no dread or sorrow attached to it, because this is everything he ever wanted. He was obsessed with reaching that level.
What makes it even better is that he awakens it through the realization that he couldn’t. That failure hits him harder than any single death would have. His pride is everything. He believed he was invincible, at his absolute peak. In his mind, this was his ideal self, similar to how Cell viewed his Perfect Form. So when Android 18 shows up and completely outclasses him, it shatters his fantasy in the most brutal way possible.
From that point on, he’s always chasing more power, always trying to prove himself. And yet he keeps falling short, even after becoming the very thing he spent his life striving for. That’s what makes his arc so compelling to me.

I think it would be different enough to still be interesting. In contrast to Goku and Gohan, Vegeta isn't the main character, his transformation wouldn't be a huge spectacle, and he doesn't get the catharsis of using his new superpower to put the enemy in their place. And yeah, there isn't anything particularly wrong with the story as-is (aside from my minor quibble about Vegeta needing a loophole to qualify as "pure of heart"), and Vegeta getting to be on his high horse before #18 brings him down to reality is nothing short of sublime. But I think I just prefer the idea of Vegeta's pride taking an uninterrupted beating the whole arc rather than it being on a roller coaster, but that's up to taste I think.

[PhantomSaiyan]

aside from my minor quibble about Vegeta needing a loophole to qualify as "pure of heart"

I guess we consider that as false as the "only one Super Saiyan shows up once every 1000 years" thing, just another fake rumor that propagated along with the legend

[90sDBZ]

Double posting bc the two unpopular takes are so unrelated.

GT is better dubbed with the Menza score, and I say this as someone who prefers the Japanese version for everything else.

The corny dated approach actually improves GT and sometimes the dub makes legitimate corrections to the plot that didn't make sense in the original. Tokunaga score also had placement issues. The Menza score is a little dry but you never have things like Goku and Trunks raiding the villains' hideout in a moment that's supposed to be tense, while the most lighthearted rearrangement of the ed plays in the background, undercutting the intended atmosphere of the whole scene.

GT's awful music placement is not something that gets spoken about often. It's almost as bad as early Super.

As someone who's a massive fan of Team Faulconer's score in Z, I have to say I much prefer Tokunaga to Menza for GT.

Its been a long time since I watched GT with Menza's score, but I have a hard time remembering anything outside of the recap theme and the Super Saiyan theme (which also gets used in some of the Z movies).

Tokunaga's score is way more memorable, and is way better at conveying emotion. The final episode in particular is beautifully scored. I think I'd even go as far as saying I prefer it to Kikuchi's Z score (but not OG DB).

As far as Menza's score fitting the dub better, I agree to a certain extent, but not to the point were watching the dub with it is the better option. The serious sounding Narrator fitting Menza's score better is a good point others have made, but overall I'm able to watch the dub with Tokunaga and have a more enjoyable experience.

[MasenkoHA]

I’ve never watched dubbed GT beyond some clips but I can never not think of that scene with Goku going to sleep on Shen Long as the dragon balls disappear into his body and a sentimental arrangement of Dan Dan plays….the uh dub score replaced that music with generic “danger is lurking around the corner” music very fitting for a moment meant to invoke nostalgia and a bitter sweet parting.

That is to say I think I have to contest the idea the Menza music fits better.

[The Dark Knight]

Funimation's GT soundtrack was basically one track playing at all times for 64 episodes straight.

[Hellspawn28]

Funi's GT dub feels very mid 00s. The music feels like it was common in place in kids shows around that time, and Funimation was really trying to make a 7-8 year old show feel like this "Badass new generation of Dragon Ball of the new Millennium". The tone of the dub and the Japanese version are like night and day. The only dub of GT is worth watching is the Blue Water dub because it keeps the Japanese music and the scripts feel more faithful to the Japanese version.

[kprison]

Funimation's GT soundtrack was basically one track playing at all times for 64 episodes straight.

That's just not a fair assessment at all. There are something like 40 tracks composed for it.

I encourage anyone to go back and actually watch GT from begining to end keeping in mind what you think of the music per episode. I think there's a selection bias going on where people only remember the few good parts and have forgotten the majority.

If you're talking the last 2 episodes of GT, the episodes of Baby on Earth, maybe the Desert Planet, then sure, Tokunaga's score is well used. But that would be like saying Sumitomo's score is good and by that you just mean you liked a few jazzy tracks in the Tournament of Power.

Like ok, nothing wrong with that, but it's not a holistic appraisal. Most of the time, in the complete episodes as they were released, not just isolated moments people remember most, the Tokunaga score is actively grating. That's my contention, anyway, and I suspect most people who go back with a critical ear instead of overemphasizing the few pieces that are good, even if they don't think Menza is any better, will come around to the opinion that the Tokunaga score is not what most crack it up to be.

[ABED]

I find the dub GT score to unmemorable for the most part, whereas GT's score is one of the biggest positives of the series.

What tracks would you say convey action or tension the best?

I have a theory that most people with a positive view of the original GT score are only remembering the rearrangements and maybe a half dozen or less "atmospheric" tracks.

But those aren't what's actually playing most of the time. GT has over 100 tracks and most of them sound a lot more like this: https://youtu.be/dAab666R-uI?si=fPoHKUFjqbf7lXuS

Or this: https://youtu.be/rXx47uYJ6XE?si=zh14MLcJPOoVoYJG

Then with an action scene you'll have all the tension bleed out like a stuck pig with tracks like this: https://youtu.be/iZf9V7ybbzQ?si=Nkt-we8lBJdrGWHU

Or this: https://youtu.be/UzAdaQU0cu0?si=U-0ESfrkgvBxCp_3

The comedy tracks are insufferable

https://youtu.be/Z73wfB6EnYU?si=nG94ISevoj8mXWgH
https://youtu.be/uxVtbrgslDw?si=SzIZhc3SH0bxYCO1

Maybe if they NEVER used any of these one could say "well you're cherry picking" but this is half the damn show, they use these tracks during crucial moments, and I can't even blame them because if you removed all the bad tracks, you wouldn't have any variety left from episode to episode.

Ideally they'd have kept Kikuchi on, even if they just reused the old tracks. Menza almost wins by default, his tracks aren't even as edgy as people say. It's just mid. He also did some of the movies and they're mid too. Everything Menza did was mid, but acceptable,.

I don't commit this stuff to memory, but what can I say, I like the tracks you linked to. I like the original score far better. Menza's is boring, low droning nonsense that is at odds with the source material. It reminds me of this scene in Buffy where Xander and Harmony, now a vampire, have the most cartoonishly dumb childish fight with a bunch of slapping and yet this intense fight scene music plays. At least that was self aware and a parody. Menza's score is a weak attempt to make up for GT's lackluster reputation, as if FUNi is saying "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain, this show is action packed and intense, we swear!"

That's just not a fair assessment at all. There are something like 40 tracks composed for it.

I assume it wasn't a literal statement, but more a shorter way of saying that the 40 tracks aren't memorable and run together. Hell, the only reason I remember any of those tracks is because I own the singles DVDs and the menu songs play on a loop.

[jjgp1112]

Funimation's GT soundtrack was basically one track playing at all times for 64 episodes straight.

That's just not a fair assessment at all. There are something like 40 tracks composed for it.

I encourage anyone to go back and actually watch GT from begining to end keeping in mind what you think of the music per episode. I think there's a selection bias going on where people only remember the few good parts and have forgotten the majority.

If you're talking the last 2 episodes of GT, the episodes of Baby on Earth, maybe the Desert Planet, then sure, Tokunaga's score is well used. But that would be like saying Sumitomo's score is good and by that you just mean you liked a few jazzy tracks in the Tournament of Power.

Like ok, nothing wrong with that, but it's not a holistic appraisal. Most of the time, in the complete episodes as they were released, not just isolated moments people remember most, the Tokunaga score is actively grating. That's my contention, anyway, and I suspect most people who go back with a critical ear instead of overemphasizing the few pieces that are good, even if they don't think Menza is any better, will come around to the opinion that the Tokunaga score is not what most crack it up to be.

There is not a single distinct song in the entire Menza GT score, it's essentially just the theme song riff and grungy guitar stabs at all times.

Also you singling this track out as bad:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZf9V7ybbzQ

Has some major "Coolest thing ever->This fucking sucks actually" energy

[Zebra]

The music that played when Gokuu and Oob were fighting in the first episode (or the "Grand Problem" recap episode) was fairly distinct, imo. At least it was more upbeat than most of the other Menza tracks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAWAahsmj-M

I also kinda like the ending montage and Super Saiyan themes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWVQfQLVUYg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BB5sDXTXI-0

[MasenkoHA]

Funimation's GT soundtrack was basically one track playing at all times for 64 episodes straight.

That's just not a fair assessment at all. There are something like 40 tracks composed for it.

I encourage anyone to go back and actually watch GT from begining to end keeping in mind what you think of the music per episode. I think there's a selection bias going on where people only remember the few good parts and have forgotten the majority.

If you're talking the last 2 episodes of GT, the episodes of Baby on Earth, maybe the Desert Planet, then sure, Tokunaga's score is well used. But that would be like saying Sumitomo's score is good and by that you just mean you liked a few jazzy tracks in the Tournament of Power.

Like ok, nothing wrong with that, but it's not a holistic appraisal. Most of the time, in the complete episodes as they were released, not just isolated moments people remember most, the Tokunaga score is actively grating. That's my contention, anyway, and I suspect most people who go back with a critical ear instead of overemphasizing the few pieces that are good, even if they don't think Menza is any better, will come around to the opinion that the Tokunaga score is not what most crack it up to be.

As someone who thinks the Tokunaga score is a touch overrated (I assume because a lot of fans here are from the UK and Canada and grew up with it via the Blue Water dub?) I’d still take it any day of the week over Menza’s sterile score.


The worst thing I can say about Tokunaga’s score is that it’s the most “Saturday Morning Cartoony” of the Japanese scores but it could also be grandeur and sweet. There was a range of emotions. All of Menza’s music was “Serious shit is going down this is serious
Man”

[WittyUsername]

The Tokunaga score itself can be a bit repetitive, but it’s a lot more memorable than the Menza score.

[jjgp1112]

I think the biggest issue with Tokunaga's score is 90% of it, save for the stuff imported from Path to Power, sounds blatantly like MIDI