Which was the better sequel: GT, Super, or Daima ?

[kiarasuraru]

Yeah, agreed.
I'm sure not a single Japanese person knows what canon or continuity is or that stories have beginnings or endings and they all think every fictional work in history works like Doraemon and Sazae-san.

They know what story progression is, obviously. But they don't really have this obsession with a main continuity or anything like that. The concept is totally Western and derives from the Catholic Church. In Japan, if the product is official, it's good. That's what matters.

Meaning they know what canon is. I don't understand this infantilization of the Japanese like if canon is some high concept only illuminated gaijins can know about.
Torishima's my GOAT and I'll glaze him at any chance I can get, but just because he didn't know the exact English word doesn't mean "canon" is an alien concept for the Japanese. Toyotaro knew right away what he was asked about. Does that mean every Japanese knows what canon means now then? Or it doesn't count because it goes against the narrative?
You never see this argument on any other franchise. You go and see people talking about Zelda, Resident Evil, Naruto, Metal Gear, Eva, Gundam, Digimon, One Piece, or even ridiculously overcomplicated messy franchises like Fate, etc and everyone has a general idea of what's canon and what's not canon and where and when everything goes and what's for funsies and what's proper. Even fucking mainline Pokemon has a consistent timeline that we even know they keep track of internally based on all that stuff we weren't supposed to know about ourselves.
But somehow, someway, Dragon Ball is the only and one franchise that is 8deep16u where nothing of that matters and no one can figure it out. Like, c'mon.

Besides, you really think Iyoku is gonna come out and say "Ummm, Daima/Super's not canon akchually it's just a funny side adventure haha!"? Of fucking course he's not, because he's not stupid, because knows if he says that people will start seeing it as lesser. And if people see it as lesser then the pockets don't get filled as much. Why do you think GT is the red-headed stepchild of the franchise? Just for funsies? Or how about all the Z-era movies? But sure, let's pretend the powers that be in DB have no idea what canon is and have no idea that 3 follows 2 and if a -154 followed a 4 it would totally be the same.

You know something I've always found to be a big funny? Based on what's the most Toriyama who ever Toriyama'd sequel argument, DBO should be the greatest contender considering Toriyama created a gorillion concepts for it and then also was the first by far and wide as the cherry on top of the cake. But no one cares and everyone ignores it because it was some random MMO from two decades ago that never truly caught fire.

That this argument rages on unending is proof that canon does matter no matter how much people love to pretend otherwise. Projects being canon provides legitimacy. The same way slapping a sticker that says TORIYAMA on the product does.
If nothing is "canon" and nothing really matters, then what even is the point of getting invested or caring about anything if they can just do whatever the hell they want full on lol so randum? You can have fun? You can enjoy it anyways? Yeah, sure. So? That's besides the point in all honestly.

You know how all this is "solved"? Say it straight. Just admit it: They plain and simply fucked up. That's why this dumb-ass argument happens here but never anywhere else. Everything ever since Super started, and arguably with RoF, has been thought-up and then made in five minutes when the due date was actually three minutes and then they also did it with their left hand while actually being right-handed.
That's why the franchise is the clusterfuck it currently is, to the point half of the marketing for the Beerus thing is basically saying "we're gonna try to make sense of this clusterfuck".

[ma0u]

Yea, the word 'canon' doesn't even exist in Japanese.

Back when Super was beginning, Toriyama measured BoG and Res F as 'different timelines'. Otherwise Toriyama has made comments in the past about how Goku is portrayed in his manga compared to Toei's representation of him, and that he believes his manga is the correct interpretation of Goku's nonchalant fighting spirit, and how it represents the '"poison" that slip in and out of sight among the shadows'

I will point out, the end of Daima when Goku said 'I trained and learned how to do SSJ4 on my own time' during the last 5 mins of episode 20, definitely came off as a power move in terms of canonicity. Had they wanted, they could have skipped that line altogether and left fans to believe that 2015 Super canon is congruent with Daima (despite small incongruencies like Buu's belly being the reason for Kaioshin and Kibit's de-fusion), since it already looked like it was Neva who enabled Goku's SSJ4 transformation (which tbh, kind of came off that way—up until Goku said otherwise at the end).

Now we just get to wonder if the new Super release will be reincorporating Daima into the Super re-release.

[The Dark Knight]

I will point out, the end of Daima when Goku said 'I trained and learned how to do SSJ4 on my own time' during the last 5 mins of episode 20, definitely came off as a power move in terms of canonicity. Had they wanted, they could have skipped that line altogether and left fans to believe that 2015 Super canon is congruent with Daima (despite small incongruencies like Buu's belly being the reason for Kaioshin and Kibit's de-fusion), since it already looked like it was Neva who enabled Goku's SSJ4 transformation (which tbh, kind of came off that way—up until Goku said otherwise at the end).

What Goku said was that he figured out there was something beyond Ssj3, but he hadn't figured out how to access it until Neva helped him.

[BernardoCairo]

Meaning they know what canon is. I don't understand this infantilization of the Japanese like if canon is some high concept only illuminated gaijins can know about.

Who said I was saying that? It's exactly the opposite. The fact that they don't care so much about arbitrary continuity rules is something I find great and intelligent. It doesn't make sense to be so obsessed with an abstract concept like a "main timeline" when that thing doesn't even exist.
Dragon Ball 1986, Dragon Ball Z, Dragon Ball GT, Dragon Ball Super, and Dragon Ball Daima are all adaptations. If you want to be pedantic, none of them are truly ""canon"", since they aren't the original source of the story.

[JulieYBM]

Marry, Fuck, or Kill 'canon'?

The answer is always to obliterate that twink.

(Being married to canon doesn't help in a franchise that doesn't have stringent rules for it)

[PhantomSaiyan]

Meaning they know what canon is. I don't understand this infantilization of the Japanese like if canon is some high concept only illuminated gaijins can know about.

Why are you even framing it like that? That's so weird man, literally nobody said that.

The Japanese just don't give a fuck like the people in the west do, deal with it, it's got fuck all to do with "infantilization" (how you could even extrapolate such an interpretation is beyond me tbh) it's got more to do with how they consume stories, they know this shit ain't real, and that it's just a new entertainment product to engage with.

And no, the thing about Torishima isn't about him not knowing the ENGLISH word, when they explained what the word means, you know, the CONCEPT ITSELF, he was bewildered all the same that people cared about this stuff. And he's not the first nor the last japanese person that reacted this way to the canon discussion.

I don't know why you have such a problem with what is essentially just the reality of things, this discussion happens in a lot more fandoms, not just in Dragon Ball, so what are you even saying? Final Fantasy, Evangelion, Naruto, Fate, Gundam, Kingdom Hearts, Nier just to name a few, so it's absolutely false that it's just a Dragon Ball thing, it's a "long japanese franchise" thing, it's a pattern that keeps repeating with successful franchises with lots of entries.

And Resident Evil, which you cited earlier, ALSO has this problem. In a lot of RE games, multiple playthroughs that can't happen at once (Jill - Chris, Leon A - Claire B, Claire A - Leon B) are by admission of Capcom, and according to in game events in the sequels, ALL CANON AT THE SAME TIME

So why are you so in denial about something so trivial? Such a weird hill to die on. Japanese people having a different relationship with canon than us ain't nothing new, and it's something that is well known for a reason, people didn't just randomly start saying it one day because they were bored.

[ma0u]

What Goku said was that he figured out there was something beyond Ssj3, but he hadn't figured out how to access it until Neva helped him.

Below I've included the only dialog that Goku shared about how he reached SSJ4, which was between him and Vegeta at the end of episode 20 of Daima (at around 17:50).

Vegeta: You were keeping that transformation a secret from me!
Goku: You mean SSJ4? Buu was really strong, so I trained a lot after fightin' him. I wasn't sure if it would work, though.
Vegeta: Hmph, it's like a bargain sale of Super Saiyans!

He never confirms that Neva had anything to do with it. Otherwise I'm not sure if in one of the dubs they modified the dialog and had Goku add a comment in about Neva; Even if so, the original Japanese dialog is always the accurate source.

[Zebra]

An equivalent term for "canon" in Japanese is 正史 (seishi), which literally translates to "official history" or "authentic history". That was the term V-Jump used for DBS's versions of Broly and Gogeeta.

Even though they don't actually say the word "canon" in Japanese, they still know the concept of continuity in a story; there is stuff that happens in the story or lore as the author intended, and there are stuff that doesn't. To say Japanese people don't give a shit about this is pretty ignorant; Japanese fans argue about this stuff just as American fans do.

Toriyama himself said that the original Toei movies take place in a separate "dimension" from the manga, which is basically his way of saying that they're not canon to the manga. Before the Kanzenban, Toriyama's canon (or continuity) consisted of the original manga and the Burdack TV special. Then, the Kanzenban replaced the original manga (without actually changing much) in 2004. It was all pretty straightforward, but the stuff we've been getting since 2008 has complicated things.

[The Dark Knight]

Goku: You mean SSJ4? Buu was really strong, so I trained a lot after fightin' him. I wasn't sure if it would work, though.

He doesn't say it outright, but don't you get the impression that transforming against Gomah was the first time he did it ? Why wouldn't he be sure it would work if he had transformed before ? There's also the fact that he looked surprised to see the form when Neva did unlock it. Goku's dialogue and the actual scene he transformed in make it very clear that although he knew something beyond 3 existed, he hadn't figured out what that was or how to get there.

[ma0u]

There's also the fact that he looked surprised to see the form when Neva did unlock it. Goku's dialogue and the actual scene he transformed in make it very clear that although he knew something beyond 3 existed, he hadn't figured out what that was or how to get there.

Yea the editing and content of Daima felt scrambled and rushed, and definitely was in need of improvement pacing and story wise. It's clear that Toriyama didn't have just one final battle and ending in mind for Daima—Goku finding the fusion bugs early on that were never used is an example of a discarded plot device that was never followed through.

[The Dark Knight]

It's clear that Toriyama didn't have just one final battle and ending in mind for Daima.

That's exactly right, as Iyoko confirmed during an interview that Toriyama was going back and forth between a number of endings before deciding on the one we got. I was personally happy with the one we got, but I am interested in what could've been. If the fusion bugs played a role in the ending, does that mean Ssj4 wouldn't have happened ? Was Ssj4 always the plan, but they originally wanted a Ssj3 fusion as well, only to decide against it because one would outshine the other ?

[PhantomSaiyan]

To say Japanese people don't give a shit about this is pretty ignorant; Japanese fans argue about this stuff just as American fans do.

No, it's just the truth.

*Torishima didn’t immediately understand the word ‘canon,’ and asked for the question to be reworded. He understood better when the interviewer mentioned ‘chronology of events,’ and he laughs when he finally understands what the question is about

Torishima: First, Mr. Toriyama was chaotic. He often forgot the continuity of the characters he created… And so he made stories without worrying about it. In conclusion, there is no continuity or chronological order — period

Toyotaro: I love almost every work that exists in the Dragon Ball universe. To me, everything is kind of canon because I’ve seen everything. But it’s not really my role to decide what is canon and what isn’t. And I think it’s better if each fan decides for themselves what is or isn’t canon in their own continuity.

Nakatsuru: I’m not really sure either…

Those responses sound exactly like what we've been saying, like they come from ppl that don't give that much of a shit about the canonicity of each and every product of the franchise, they're just stories to enjoy, and that's the end of it

And ofc Toriyama said that, because he didn't write GT, same with the Movies.

Meanwhile, Toei's official timeline of the Dragon Ball Universe has both Super and GT on it, one after the other. They don't give a shit.

[Zebra]

No, it's just the truth.

It's not, hence V-Jump saying that DBS brought Broly and Gogeeta into Dragon Ball's "authentic history". In other words, canon.

And you don't speak for the many Japanese fans who argue about this just as we do.

*Torishima didn’t immediately understand the word ‘canon,’ and asked for the question to be reworded. He understood better when the interviewer mentioned ‘chronology of events,’ and he laughs when he finally understands what the question is about

He knows the concept of continuity. He just didn't know it by the name of "canon".

Torishima: First, Mr. Toriyama was chaotic. He often forgot the continuity of the characters he created… And so he made stories without worrying about it. In conclusion, there is no continuity or chronological order — period

Toriyama often forgot about what he wrote, but that doesn't mean he intended for there to be no continuity. The original manga was his continuity, and he integrated the Burdack TV special into it. That was Toriyama's canon before the 2000s.

Torishima's words better apply to Dr. Slump, which was all over the place with its random events. But even there, Toriyama would note when he'd make a mistake in the continuity and apologize to readers. So, Torishima isn't correct.

Toyotaro: I love almost every work that exists in the Dragon Ball universe. To me, everything is kind of canon because I’ve seen everything. But it’s not really my role to decide what is canon and what isn’t. And I think it’s better if each fan decides for themselves what is or isn’t canon in their own continuity.

Toyotaroh's personal opinion and nothing more. Even he implies that some things are more canon than others.

And Nakatsuru is just a character designer.

Those responses sound exactly like what we've been saying, like they come from ppl that don't give that much of a shit about the canonicity of each and every product of the franchise, they're just stories to enjoy, and that's the end of it

At the end of the day, they're not Toriyama, so it doesn't matter.

And ofc Toriyama said that, because he didn't write GT, same with the Movies.

Thus they're not canon.

They don't give a shit

Toriyama did.

[Kaboom]

Ah yes, the so-called "authentic history" that so far has at least two, soon three, separate and incompatible versions of itself.

[PhantomSaiyan]

It's not, hence V-Jump saying that DBS brought Broly and Gogeeta into Dragon Ball's "authentic history". In other words, canon.

Toei's official timeline has both Super and GT on it. Deal with it, they don't care.

And you don't speak for the many Japanese fans who argue about this just as we do.

That's a stupid argument. That's like me saying "look, there's a few western people that don't argue about it in the western fandom, so that means they don't care about canon" while ignoring the thoundands or agruments about canon.
You're doing the opposite of that, exceptions will always exist, but you're looking at those, ignoring that on average, japanese people still care far less than we do, and that's a fact.
This fact didn't get spread and become well known just because people were bored, it's the truth.

Torishima didn’t immediately understand the word ‘canon,’ and asked for the question to be reworded. He understood better when the interviewer mentioned ‘chronology of events,’ and he laughs when he finally understands what the question is about
He knows the concept of continuity. He just didn't know it by the name of "canon".

Another ineffective argument. Idk if you know how interviews work when foreign people are asked questions, but they did not ask Torishima the question in English, therefore the word "canon" was not used whatsoever.

Torishima: First, Mr. Toriyama was chaotic. He often forgot the continuity of the characters he created… And so he made stories without worrying about it. In conclusion, there is no continuity or chronological order — period

Toriyama often forgot about what he wrote, but that doesn't mean he intended for there to be no continuity. The original manga was his continuity, and he integrated the Burdack TV special into it. That was Toriyama's canon before the 2000s.

His continuity always sucked (respawning moon among other issues in original db), a person close to him that worked with him, Torishima, literally fucking said that he did not care about continuity, and he freaking showed us he doesn't care about it by writing both Super and Daima, and you're still saying that Toriyama cared? Insane denial

Torishima's words better apply to Dr. Slump, which was all over the place with its random events. But even there, Toriyama would note when he'd make a mistake in the continuity and apologize to readers. So, Torishima isn't correct.

It takes a speciaal kind of pretentioussness to say that Torishima is wrong about a guy he worked with for years. What, you know Toriyama better than he did?

Toyotaroh's personal opinion and nothing more. Even he implies that some things are more canon than others.

An opinion which perfectly encapsulates what the average Japanese person thinks about canon. You're in denial again.
I love Toriyama as much as the next guy, but defending him shortcomings, and saying that "no he actually cared about continuity a lot" it just silly. He's not a perfect author, deal with it

And Nakatsuru is just a character designer.

So what? He's still a japanese person showing my point, he doesn't give a shit about canon. The fact that he works as a character designer doesn't mean his brain stops working when it comes to any other topic.

At the end of the day, they're not Toriyama, so it doesn't matter.

Toriyama gives even less of a shit about continuity than they do. Toyotaro cares a lot more than Toriyama, their respective manga show it, so if Toyotaro is that loose with it, just imagine how much Toriyama doesn't care in comparison.

Thus they're not canon.

So? The stuff Toriyama writes contradicts itself.

Toriyama did.

This is hilarious.
Yeah, ignore the fact that Super and Daima are both written by him and don't work together at all, but also ignore what the people close to him said, you know Toriyama better than Torishima does right?
That's some next level cope and denial there.

[VegettoEX]

This is not an appropriate way to hold a conversation (<-- aimed at multiple people in a row).

This one's a freebie, folks!

[BernardoCairo]

Just to make myself even clearer, just in case, obviously the Japanese understand what continuity is. Toriyama didn't write the scripts for the old movies or GT, so it makes sense that he doesn't consider those projects part of his work. It's logical. The point is that they aren't as obsessed with a main timeline as we are in the rest of the world. It's a cultural thing.

I don't know why you have such a problem with what is Evangelion

I find it funny how you brought that up because a really cool short film came out this week and many fans were already debating whether it's canon or not (despite the series having two different continuities and three endings).
Ultimately, "canon" seems to me more like a mechanism for people to disqualify and ignore what they don't like. That's why I say that if there were a true "canon," defined only by what Toriyama created, it would be the original manga. And even then, it's difficult to say for sure, since he worked on many more things, albeit on a smaller scale. But the manga is the original story.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Just to make myself even clearer, just in case, obviously the Japanese understand what continuity is. Toriyama didn't write the scripts for the old movies or GT, so it makes sense that he doesn't consider those projects part of his work. It's logical. The point is that they aren't as obsessed with a main timeline as we are in the rest of the world. It's a cultural thing.

Exactly. I don't know how the conversation shifted to "why are you guys saying japanese people don't know what canon is, you're infantilizing them" when all we've said is that they don't care about it nearly as much as the western side, not that they have no clue what it is because they're dumb and we're illuminated or whatever they tried to imply

I find it funny how you brought that up because a really cool short film came out this week and many fans were already debating whether it's canon or not (despite the series having two different continuities and three endings).
Ultimately, "canon" seems to me more like a mechanism for people to disqualify and ignore what they don't like. That's why I say that if there were a true "canon," defined only by what Toriyama created, it would be the original manga. And even then, it's difficult to say for sure, since he worked on many more things, albeit on a smaller scale. But the manga is the original story.

100% agree with you there.
Like, I get that it's important to know the relationship between different entries in a franchise, which ones lead into the other etc but often times the canon discourse is employed purely to discredit parts of a franchise that people don't like, or prop up the ones that they do like by giving them a bigger sense of importance\value, when at the end of the day who cares? They are all fake stories anyway.
I'll still enjoy the dbz movies, and GT (despite my criticisms towards it that I voiced here multiple times)

[kiarasuraru]

All that aside, I personally think the best sequel is DBO.
World moved on, world changed, the world expanded, world is full of adventure, everyone left legacies, there's a new adventure, meeting and fight down each corner. It felt like a genuine progression of the world of Dragon Ball.

I'm honestly kind of curious as to how AGE1000/X3 will re-conciliate all the GT/Super/Daima things into it. Probably even Heroes thing, and Xeno because duh. As long as it's actually set in Age 1000 and a DBO-ish World and setting. Another big part of DBO's appeal for me was how it was kind of more, grounded? low-scale? sorta vibe, and all those are anything but.

[PhantomSaiyan]

I can agree on that.

I hope we get more of that vibe in Xenverse 3 and that we get enough time in this new setting, without the main characters and the usual characters we know and the whole "go back in time to fix the timeline" thing stealing the spotlight from it