Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

However, Golden Freeza did better than both.

He just got clobbered

For an HOUR? No. Even though it was off panel it's a great feat. Regardless if he exchanged blows or just got pounded for 60 minutes.

[PhantomSaiyan]

For an HOUR? No. Even though it was off panel it's a great feat. Regardless if he exchanged blows or just got pounded for 60 minutes.

I doubt Goku and Vegeta wouldn't have lasted as much. And SSJ Gogeta was doing more than getting pounded so... You've overstating Freeza's feat a tad bit

[Miracles]

For an HOUR? No. Even though it was off panel it's a great feat. Regardless if he exchanged blows or just got pounded for 60 minutes.

I doubt Goku and Vegeta wouldn't have lasted as much. And SSJ Gogeta was doing more than getting pounded so... You've overstating Freeza's feat a tad bit

Well I was talking how Freeza did better than base Gogeta

[PhantomSaiyan]

Well I was talking how Freeza did better than base Gogeta

Base Gogeta wasn't getting absolutely clobbered either

[Miracles]

Well I was talking how Freeza did better than base Gogeta

Base Gogeta wasn't getting absolutely clobbered either

Base Gogeta ran unlike Freeza and fought for an hour. It's a better feat still.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Base Gogeta ran unlike Freeza and fought for an hour. It's a better feat still.

Avoiding hits =/= running.
Agree to disagree, not much to be said here. Freeza was not shown gracefully avoiding tons of ki blasts, he was just shown getting his shit kicked in

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Moro has to damage fusions for Spirit Fission to work. Also, no Blue fusion was stated to be as strong as Beerus.

And fusion could also damage Moro back. Piccolo didn’t really think it through when he said that.

Right, it wasn’t. SSJB Fusion was stated to be even stronger then Beerus.

Ch. 23, pg. 43.6-7
Context: as Vegetto prepares his Final Kamehameha
Kaioshin: “A-amazing… This is incredible…! The power of Vegetto… Could it already be greater than Lord Beerus’s?!”

How strong are:

Current base Goku and Vegeta

Current Android 18

Current Uub

Base Goku and Vegeta are easily stronger than most of Z. To say they didn’t get much stronger requires a lot of headcanon.

18 is confusing. She seems to be almost as strong as 17 when they fight Moro… She’s not just doing back up like Piccolo, they’re doing the same thing, and then Moro says they’re both very strong and it’s a shame he can’t absorb their energy.

Oob’s hidden power is enough to blow Vegeta’s mind in the Moro Saga, but his normal power ain’t much.

[Miracles]

Moro has to damage fusions for Spirit Fission to work. Also, no Blue fusion was stated to be as strong as Beerus.

And fusion could also damage Moro back. Piccolo didn’t really think it through when he said that.

Right, it wasn’t. SSJB Fusion was stated to be even stronger then Beerus.

Ch. 23, pg. 43.6-7
Context: as Vegetto prepares his Final Kamehameha
Kaioshin: “A-amazing… This is incredible…! The power of Vegetto… Could it already be greater than Lord Beerus’s?!”

Kaioshin asked if Vegetto's is greater than Beerus's. It was not said to be so.

Moro combined with 7-3 coupled with Spirit Fission, infinite stamina, regenration, etc was simply too much for fusion. Rendering fusion "useless" even as a "last resort."

Base Gogeta ran unlike Freeza and fought for an hour. It's a better feat still.

Avoiding hits =/= running.
Agree to disagree, not much to be said here. Freeza was not shown gracefully avoiding tons of ki blasts, he was just shown getting his shit kicked in

Agreed.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think we need to distinguish between "being stronger than Beerus" against "being able to beat him in a full fight".

I also think there's a point to be made that all these opponents that have reached this level of strength aren't necessarily leaps and bounds stronger than one another.

[Miracles]

Generally being stronger than someone and being able to beat them in DB is the same thing.

Nappa blew away Chatzu's psychic powers...
Hit's time skip got monstered by Jiren...
Vegetto's larger ki stayed intact when turned into a candy ball...

However...

Chapter: 410 (DBZ 216), P6.3
Context: after Gohan beats Cell up
Cell: “Unbelievable..! To think that someone like this could exist in this world…I’m completely losing in terms of power…But a battle’s outcome is a different matter…”

Captain Ginyu's Body change technique...
Devilman's devilbeam manipulating the darkness in one's heart causing it to explode...
Moro's magic used the planet's energy to attack the stronger Goku and Vegeta on Namek...

Yeah but generally larger Ki conquers all. Hence why Beerus is the man.

[picc]

I meant that by the ToP, their bases might rival the androids, but after the Moro and Granolah arc, their bases should be stronger than that since they trained and had better results.
To me it seemed that their gains were bigger in those two last arcs than in the previous ones, that's why I'm thinking they could be on Cell's tier. Like, if SS is 100-ish, the androids were 400-500M, and 2nd Cell is closing in on 1,000M, then for the animated arcs they went from 100 to 500, and in the manga exclusive arcs, with bigger gains, they should at least be on the other end. But it's just a guess, it's arbitrary what I call "bigger gains".
I do believe it's probably not as much as I expect, since like I mentioned before whatever we usually believe, it never is as much.

I suppose that's the tricky thing about these power level debates. What seems like a bridge too far is easily rebuttable by how absurd random power level jumps have been.

As far as the base forms going from Android to Cell level, the main thing that would pause me on that is that gigantic PL leaps are usually triggered by some sort of deux ex machina. ie. transformation, fusion, potential unlocked, wishes, etc.

I'm not sure mere training by itself is enough to leap entire SSJ levels, which is what Android level to >2nd form Cell would be. Granted, Yardrat/Beerus/Whis/Merus training is not typical training by any means. So I suppose what I'm saying is that at the end of the day, given everything we know about Dragonball, I would be 0% shocked if the base saiyans were still below 2nd form Cell, and also 0% shocked if they weren't.

[Nevaeh]

You guys think they'll keep the whole "SSG in base" thing in the remake/remaster?

It's fun using it to argue stuff like Base Cabba vs SS4 Gogeta but it would fix most of the anime's scaling issues imo

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I've heard rumours that Goku won't lose Super Saiyan God by the end of the fight when he loses, but I've only heard this secondhand.

Though a big point from the original movie was the fact that Goku wasn't satisfied with having Super Saiyan God be something he didn't reach himself, hence him ultimately making the power his own despite losing the form.

It could be that they'll keep that general premise by having Goku be able to access the form by himself again right from the get-go, further tying into later story arcs where he's evidently just had it in the back pocket the entire time.

[Miracles]

Goku was said to have made SSJ god his own power in Battle of gods. He never lost it afterwards.

[Grimlock]

Though a big point from the original movie was the fact that Goku wasn't satisfied with having Super Saiyan God be something he didn't reach himself, hence him ultimately making the power his own despite losing the form.

Pretty sure it's stated Goku absorbed Super Saiyan God's power thanks to being a "prodigious fighter", not because he didn't like how he reached there.


Anyway, the question was related to Saiyan beyond God, which isn't a thing in the anime continuity apparently, and it existed in the manga but was dropped from there too. So if they are also bringing stuff from the manga (citation needed), it's something to look forward how the remaster will handle this. I think they will just stick to the anime version, however it was handled there, anyway.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Though a big point from the original movie was the fact that Goku wasn't satisfied with having Super Saiyan God be something he didn't reach himself, hence him ultimately making the power his own despite losing the form.

Pretty sure it's stated Goku absorbed Super Saiyan God's power thanks to being a "prodigious fighter", not because he didn't like how he reached there.


Anyway, the question was related to Saiyan beyond God, which isn't a thing in the anime continuity apparently, and it existed in the manga but was dropped from there too. So if they are also bringing stuff from the manga (citation needed), it's something to look forward how the remaster will handle this. I think they will just stick to the anime version, however it was handled there, anyway. Also, we won't know it until the Golden Freeza saga, where that state debuted.

Obviously I didn't mean Goku only absorbed SSG's power from being dissatisfied, HENCE why I said "hence him ultimately making the power his own despite losing the form". I am well-aware and didn't imply whatsoever that was the reasoning.

HENCE why I said "a big point", as in not necessarily exact specific sequence of events but more so the broad strokes.

=

And that's why I made the point of questioning if the "Goku making SSG's power his own" angle will be kept mostly intact, or if it might be shifted to him making it his own via keeping the form.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think it would be actually worse if they omitted the SSJG absorption stuff. The cat's already out of the bag. If they don't say anything then it's going to confuse people who will be wondering about canon and about whether the writers changed their minds or just assumed it happened after the fight ended.

Also I'm pretty sure we see some frames of SSJ Goku vs Beerus in space, so if I'm remembering it correctly, they'll probably keep it as it is.

[Grimlock]

Obviously I didn't mean Goku only absorbed SSG's power from being dissatisfied, HENCE why I said "hence him ultimately making the power his own despite losing the form". I am well-aware and didn't imply whatsoever that was the reasoning.

HENCE why I said "a big point", as in not necessarily exact specific sequence of events but more so the broad strokes.

=

And that's why I made the point of questioning if the "Goku making SSG's power his own" angle will be kept mostly intact, or if it might be shifted to him making it his own via keeping the form.

Oh, okay then. I guess I will just have to improve my English skills, because it does seem like you said Goku absorbed it due to his dislike and whatnot, "hence" being the keyword here indeed. Still, I apologize.

[Miracles]

Potential of the villains/opponents...

1.Battle of gods: Beerus set as the benchmark...

2.Resurrection of F:Golden Freeza [First time he trained and surpassed Super Saiyan Blue but couldn't handle the energy consumption in his new form].

3.U6 tournament: Hit never powered up before facing an opponent forced Goku to use Blue after training in the room of spirit and time for three years.

4.Future Trunks arc: Goku Black forced Vegeta to find away around Blue's energy consumption for a moment during attacks by switching back and forth from red to blue. Fused Zamasu forced Goku to use mastered Super Saiyan Blue where no power leaks out.

5. Tournament of power arc: Jiren was stronger than his god of destruction [Belmond], forcing Goku to use Ultra Instinct. The greatest technique of the gods. Forcing Vegeta to to power up in Blue.

6. DBS: Broly movie: Broly forced Goku to use Blue Gogeta. So powerful Goku wondered if he was stronger than Beerus himself.

7.Galactic Patrol arc: Moro was so strong that he never trained a day in his life, his limit of power was that of an angel and "equaled" UI Goku in ability after using the angel's power for the first time.

8. Granolah the Survivor arc: For the title of the universe's strongest...Granolah used a clone that forced Goku to use the full power of UI. Granolah's real body proceeds to one shot UI Goku. Then Granolah Forces Vegeta to use/evolve into Ego Vegeta, then beats him. Gas then proceeds to beat up Granolah, then forced Goku and Vegeta to evolve some more in their god forms but still loses. The level of power upgrades again and Ultimately Freeza one shots all three competing for the strongest title and becomes the strongest I the land after training for ten years in a room of Spirit of time.

9. DBS: Super Hero: Gohan power's up to Beast and kills a Cell Max not at full power. However was growing in potential during the fight [manga only]. Pretty impressive not to be at full power yet forcing Gohan to gain a new form to beat him.

10. Battle Royale: Nothing here but the older training the younger generations for the future of the land. Goku and Vegeta are still top [Vegeta used Jiren's fighting style which helped him beat Goku slightly] while the younger [Gohan, Broly, Trunks and Gotenks] are potential fighters [Super hero's] for the safety of the universe. All this training on Beerus's planet for Freeza himself! None of these contestants are ready for Black Freeza yet. Despite their evolved powers.

Despite the growth in power and fusions used Beerus is still above all of this mind you. Still set as the benchmark.

[Yuji]

All battle powers equalized and reducing the battle to skill and techniques, out of all the Z and Super villains, who's coming out on top? Maybe besides Beerus since he probably wins easily (millions of years of experience, Hakai and other abilities).

I would have said Moro wins since he can just absorb everyone else's Ki, but then again Boo is a hard counter to Moro (on top of doing really well against everyone else to begin with), so I'd probably take him.

1. Boo
2. Moro
3. Zamasu (immortal, you need a way to kill him which most don't have)
4. Janemba?
5. Cell?