How do you feel about the trope where everyone waits for Goku?

[PhantomSaiyan]

No, he did not.
What did happen was Bulma getting increasingly jealous of other women giving him the slightest bit of attention and accusing him of infidelity, even though she happily kept fawning over other men like Jackie Chun, Blue, and Adult Goku.

Chapter 196, On Roshi's Island, when Goku takes Gohan to meet his friends for the very first time

Krillin: "By the way Bulma, where's Yamcha?"
Bulma: "Yamcha? That jerk? You think I care? After what he did to me? I'm better of without him and so are you!!"

So regardless, Yamcha wasn't made to cheat just for Vegeta to have a woman, this is before Vegeta was even an idea in Toriyama's head probably.
And WAY before he thought about Bulma and Vegeta being together (which as the editors confirmed, was the chapter after Trunks first appeared and killed Freeza. So a LONG time)

[JulieYBM]

Why would they ever decide to stay dead though? It makes literally no sense when you have a wish granting dragon at your disposal.
Even if they use the current wish for the Namekians, they can just be wished at a later date anyway, there's no reason to just stay dead

Unfortunately, that's the trade Toriyama made when he decided how Dragon Balls worked, there's no way around it, wish them back and there's 0 stakes and consequences, don't wish them back, and the characters involved look like idiots

I suppose it's not impossible to create a situation where the characters do stay dead, whether that would be because of their own decision (very hard to pull off since there's no benefits to forfeiting life especially since even if they die of old age, they will still end up there anyway, so why rush it) or severly limit the dragon's wish granting powers, but that shit has already sailed by that point since we have two sets of Dragon Balls.

And they have two sets because they were smart enough to revive Piccolo first. So if we want them to not have multiple sets of stake breaking Dragon Balls, they would need to be real stupid, and not revive Piccolo first, so the characters would once again look like idiots.

It's just hard to navigate such a plot device

I feel like it's pretty obvious that the idea of these characters not being revived would be based in a scenario in which the plot presents a scenario in which the characters do not get to have their cake and eat it, too. I.e., the general Namekian people get revived, but there's no more Namekian Dragon Balls afterward and Shen Long doesn't get 'upgraded' to be able to revive more a person more than one time.

[MasenkoHA]

I think that just letting characters die and not be involved with the story anymore would go a long way to evening things out, too. Yamcha, Chaozu and Tenshinhan electing to stay dead so that the Namekians could be revived would have been a pretty fitting bow to their arcs. One could even tie that into their actions being one that Gokuu could not ever take himself. There's any number of ways to play things up to tie into Gokuu and his arc.

That sounds like a good arc and use for these characters, actually.
Instead of the nothing burger and "everyone is just measuring sticks compared to Goku lol" Toriyama wrote for them.

If only you were writing Dragon Ball instead...

“Everyone is just measuring sticks compared to Goku”


Except Yamcha, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Chaozu dying is literally there to set up the next arc. It’s not just “lol these fuckers are weak compared to Goku”

The measuring stick trope is definitely something Toriyama uses A LOT but it’s not always to show “how much weaker a character is to Goku” more than often it’s usually for the antagonist.


I agree somewhat with Julie that Tenshinhan and the others choosing to stay could have worked as a resolution but I also think Toriyama wanted a traditional happy ending for his story written for 9-year old boys with the characters achieving what they set out to do.

[Kid Buu]

No, he did not.
What did happen was Bulma getting increasingly jealous of other women giving him the slightest bit of attention and accusing him of infidelity, even though she happily kept fawning over other men like Jackie Chun, Blue, and Adult Goku.

Chapter 196, On Roshi's Island, when Goku takes Gohan to meet his friends for the very first time

Krillin: "By the way Bulma, where's Yamcha?"
Bulma: "Yamcha? That jerk? You think I care? After what he did to me? I'm better of without him and so are you!!"

So regardless, Yamcha wasn't made to cheat just for Vegeta to have a woman, this is before Vegeta was even an idea in Toriyama's head probably.
And WAY before he thought about Bulma and Vegeta being together (which as the editors confirmed, was the chapter after Trunks first appeared and killed Freeza. So a LONG time)

It's been a while I've read this part, but wasn't this to due with Yamcha neglecting Bulma for training rather than cheating?

[JulieYBM]

I agree somewhat with Julie that Tenshinhan and the others choosing to stay could have worked as a resolution but I also think Toriyama wanted a traditional happy ending for his story written for 9-year old boys with the characters achieving what they set out to do.

That's probably what he was aiming for, but it's also kind of just a weak ending that doesn't amount to much and kind of just bogs the series down with a larger cast than he knows what to do with. I don't think it would have killed anyone to not jump through hoops to get everyone back alive, either.

Blah, blah, blah, forty years too late et cetera

[Kenji]

“Everyone is just measuring sticks compared to Goku”
Except Yamcha, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Chaozu dying is literally there to set up the next arc. It’s not just “lol these fuckers are weak compared to Goku”

I'm not that dense, I know why they had to die and what purpose it serves to the story.

Don't get me wrong, I personally think Yamcha and Piccolo's deaths, and Bulma and Gohan's reactions to them, were high points of the entire franchise. What bothers me about this trope specifically is how often it happens, and how the characters just look so pathetically weak and irrelevant by a huge margin every single time it does.

That's not to mention, again, the characters lamenting in the story itself how all their hard work and training becomes worthless every single time they decide to step up, only to realize they will never catch up, and eventually decide to give up on Martial Arts altogether. I don't know about you, but that doesn't really help to convey to me the idea that hard work and determination pays off, at least whereas these characters are concerned.

Yes, the Earthlings are still pretty strong compared to their race. Yes, at some point, they become stronger than Raditz, but does it really matter, is it really practical, or is it even satisfying to follow their journey if Raditz is no longer in the picture, everyone else is already magnitudes stronger than them, and they serve no other purpose in that current situation other than getting beaten up/humiliated/dying? Once again, this particular example is not exclusive to the Saiyan arc, but Dragon Ball in general, from the very beginning of the manga all the way to its end.

On the topic of "Well, these are tournaments, obviously somebody is going to lose." That wouldn't be a problem to me if the fights themselves weren't horribly one-sided and whoever was going to lose didn't get absolutely demolished by the stronger opponent. In the original Budokai arcs, for example, Jackie Chun/Goku/Kami/whoever spent most of their time toying with their opponents and turning them into a laughing stock rather than engaging seriously. There's a big difference there to an even fight between two equally strong individuals.

Personally, I find the "wait for Goku" trope frustratingly repetitive and unsatisfying.
Maybe if the other characters' hard work and training was actually shown to have been worth it in the story itself practically rather than in theory, or if Toriyama didn't treat his supporting cast like a laughing stock so often when paired against The Protagnist/The Antagonist, I would find it more palpable.

[PhantomSaiyan]

I feel like it's pretty obvious that the idea of these characters not being revived would be based in a scenario in which the plot presents a scenario in which the characters do not get to have their cake and eat it, too. I.e., the general Namekian people get revived, but there's no more Namekian Dragon Balls afterward and Shen Long doesn't get 'upgraded' to be able to revive more a person more than one time.

But what would the justification be for the Namekian Dragon Balls not existing anymore? As long as Namekians exist, Dragon Balls exist, they have to, the whole point of them existing in the plot is to create a race of people that make Dragon Balls

[JulieYBM]

I feel like it's pretty obvious that the idea of these characters not being revived would be based in a scenario in which the plot presents a scenario in which the characters do not get to have their cake and eat it, too. I.e., the general Namekian people get revived, but there's no more Namekian Dragon Balls afterward and Shen Long doesn't get 'upgraded' to be able to revive more a person more than one time.

But what would the justification be for the Namekian Dragon Balls not existing anymore? As long as Namekians exist, Dragon Balls exist, they have to

The Grand Elder dies, nobody else can create Dragon Balls. The characters learn that they themselves have to create a better world, not simply rely on the Dragon Balls to fix all their problems. Things change and go away and this time, the things changing and going away forever are the Namekian Dragon Balls, which teaches Gohan that someday, the same thing is going to happen to the Earth Dragon Balls.

[Kenji]

The Grand Elder dies, nobody else can create Dragon Balls. The characters learn that they themselves have to create a better world, not simply rely on the Dragon Balls to fix all their problems. Things change and go away and this time, the things changing and going away forever are the Namekian Dragon Balls, which teaches Gohan that someday, the same thing is going to happen to the Earth Dragon Balls.

Dragon Ball GT toyed with that idea during its end.

[PhantomSaiyan]

The Grand Elder dies, nobody else can create Dragon Balls. The characters learn that they themselves have to create a better world, not simply rely on the Dragon Balls to fix all their problems. Things change and go away and this time, the things changing and going away forever are the Namekian Dragon Balls, which teaches Gohan that someday, the same thing is going to happen to the Earth Dragon Balls.

Alright, that doesn't sound too bad at all, it works and I like the idea
Definitely out of Toriyama's comfort zone to write something like this lol

[Koitsukai]

I think the notion of the earthlings lamenting they are out of the new villain's league is blown out of proportion, I mean they do complain but it's not that big of a deal.
After Namek, they are mostly just trying to better themselves, knowing the torch has been passed to the reformed villains and saiyan offspring, even if they are retiring or simply being there for moral support.

And there's nothing wrong with that. There is no obligation to maintain the original cast as the main cast forever. And they have stopped getting beaten up, humiliated, or just being bait since Namek. The last time was Gero fisting Yamcha, that's Day One of the Cell arc... they were not humiliated ever again. They've started families, done other things with their lives, they are more than just fighting avatars.

I find it logical to have characters getting left behind, and for those to be the ones that are part of the weakest race, rather than having everybody be incredibly powerful just because the message of the show is self-improvement. It's organic, it makes sense, it's not whimsical.

Also, the message does not need to be conveyed by every single character every time, especially if they are supporting characters at most. Besides, these characters that have been left behind have conveyed the message before.

[MasenkoHA]

“Everyone is just measuring sticks compared to Goku”
Except Yamcha, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Chaozu dying is literally there to set up the next arc. It’s not just “lol these fuckers are weak compared to Goku”

I'm not that dense, I know why they had to die and what purpose it serves to the story.

Don't get me wrong, I personally think Yamcha and Piccolo's deaths, and Bulma and Gohan's reactions to them, were high points of the entire franchise. What bothers me about this trope specifically is how often it happens, and how the characters just look so pathetically weak and irrelevant by a huge margin every single time it does.

That's not to mention, again, the characters lamenting in the story itself how all their hard work and training becomes worthless every single time they decide to step up, only to realize they will never catch up, and eventually decide to give up on Martial Arts altogether. I don't know about you, but that doesn't really help to convey to me the idea that hard work and determination pays off, at least whereas these characters are concerned.

Yes, the Earthlings are still pretty strong compared to their race. Yes, at some point, they become stronger than Raditz, but does it really matter, is it really practical, or is it even satisfying to follow their journey if Raditz is no longer in the picture, everyone else is already magnitudes stronger than them, and they serve no other purpose in that current situation other than getting beaten up/humiliated/dying? Once again, this particular example is not exclusive to the Saiyan arc, but Dragon Ball in general, from the very beginning of the manga all the way to its end.

On the topic of "Well, these are tournaments, obviously somebody is going to lose." That wouldn't be a problem to me if the fights themselves weren't horribly one-sided and whoever was going to lose didn't get absolutely demolished by the stronger opponent. In the original Budokai arcs, for example, Jackie Chun/Goku/Kami/whoever spent most of their time toying with their opponents and turning them into a laughing stock rather than engaging seriously. There's a big difference there to an even fight between two equally strong individuals.

Personally, I find the "wait for Goku" trope frustratingly repetitive and unsatisfying.
Maybe if the other characters' hard work and training was actually shown to have been worth it in the story itself practically rather than in theory, or if Toriyama didn't treat his supporting cast like a laughing stock so often when paired against The Protagnist/The Antagonist, I would find it more palpable.

This just kind of reiterates my earlier point. It usually all circles back to “Dragon Ball bad because it’s not the ensemble show I want it to be”

We are not following these characters journeys. The story was never about “This gang of ragtag misfits martial artist coming together to become stronger” it was almost always just Goku’s journey to become stronger. Of course supporting characters can have wants and needs and their own personal arc but it’s not their story.

And again these one sided fights get overblown. Of Yamcha’s 4 major fights only one was completely successful one sided. If Yamcha held his own against Jackie Chun it really puts into question how effective Roshi’s teachings really are if a self taught martial artist does about as good as his two pupils. So the story needs Yamcha to do worse than Goku and Krillin.

Sure you can switch it around and have Yamcha fight Ranfan, like Kid Buu suggested, and Chun fight Nam I guess. But then we have Roshi sweeping the floor with some guy we don’t know and a semi final match between Goku and Yamcha that’s going to end in 5 seconds. Jackie Chun taking out Yamcha, a guy we know is strong in his own right, without being touched , puts into perspective just how good Roshi is beyond just being told so by Gyumao.

[Kid Buu]

Yeah, the problem with Ran Fan changing is that it makes the rest of the order a bit harder. One way I was thinking:

Yamcha def. Ran Fan
Jackie Chun def. Namu
Krillin def. Bacterian
Goku def. Giran

Jackie Chun def. Yamcha
Goku def. Krillin

Jackie Chun def. Goku

Yes I know Goku faced Krillin in the next tournament but I'd rather have had him face Chaozu in the semi final of the 22nd Budokai.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

No, he did not.
What did happen was Bulma getting increasingly jealous of other women giving him the slightest bit of attention and accusing him of infidelity, even though she happily kept fawning over other men like Jackie Chun, Blue, and Adult Goku.

Chapter 196, On Roshi's Island, when Goku takes Gohan to meet his friends for the very first time

Krillin: "By the way Bulma, where's Yamcha?"
Bulma: "Yamcha? That jerk? You think I care? After what he did to me? I'm better of without him and so are you!!"

So regardless, Yamcha wasn't made to cheat just for Vegeta to have a woman, this is before Vegeta was even an idea in Toriyama's head probably.
And WAY before he thought about Bulma and Vegeta being together (which as the editors confirmed, was the chapter after Trunks first appeared and killed Freeza. So a LONG time)

It's been a while I've read this part, but wasn't this to due with Yamcha neglecting Bulma for training rather than cheating?

IIRC that’s what i believe it was, there was nothing at that point in the story about Yamcha being an unfaithful boyfriend/cheater/player on Bulma being mentioned that i can recall…That is until later on come the Androids/Cell arc when Toriyama set up Bulma x Vegeta with Trunks’ introduction and basically had to contrive the circumstances writing and narrative wise in order to make it so.

[JulieYBM]

Yeah, the problem with Ran Fan changing is that it makes the rest of the order a bit harder. One way I was thinking:

Yamcha def. Ran Fan
Jackie Chun def. Namu
Krillin def. Bacterian
Goku def. Giran

Jackie Chun def. Yamcha
Goku def. Krillin

Jackie Chun def. Goku

Yes I know Goku faced Krillin in the next tournament but I'd rather have had him face Chaozu in the semi final of the 22nd Budokai.

This reminds me of how much I'd have preferred Panputto to be replaced by Bora in the Twenty-First Tenka-ichi Budoukai if he wasn't really going to be a substantial character. "Gokuu fights Bora and Bora sticks around as a side character for the Piccolo Daimaou arc" has a nice little full-circle feel to it and lets the arcs feel a little more interconnected before characters naturally age out of the recurring cast.

[MasenkoHA]

The Funimation dub did add a bit about Yamcha taking another girl on a date instead of Bulma’s vague “Yamcha sucks we’re through” bit in the manga and Japanese anime. That might have informed fan’s perspective on Yamcha having a precedent for cheating (although iirc the dub insinuated Bulma blew him off so he retaliated by taking another girl out). I think the Kai tv edited dub even reused that bit but fixed it to be more accurate for the home video release.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

The Funimation dub did add a bit about Yamcha taking another girl on a date instead of Bulma’s vague “Yamcha sucks we’re through” bit in the manga and Japanese anime. That might have informed fan’s perspective on Yamcha having a precedent for cheating (although iirc the dub insinuated Bulma blew him off so he retaliated by taking another girl out). I think the Kai tv edited dub even reused that bit but fixed it to be more accurate for the home video release.

Hmm, I knew that they added that tidbit in the FUNi dub though in the original version of the story on both sides it never really mentioned in any substantive capacity that Yamcha had ever actually cheated on Bulma. At least, not until Toriyama came up with the idea for Trunk’s origins and then proceeded to make Bulma x Vegeta a thing, granted even then they didn’t really begin to even resemble a couple genuinely speaking until the Majin Buu arc, GT and the revival era.

[Kenji]

This just kind of reiterates my earlier point. It usually all circles back to “Dragon Ball bad because it’s not the ensemble show I want it to be”

We are not following these characters journeys. The story was never about “This gang of ragtag misfits martial artist coming together to become stronger” it was almost always just Goku’s journey to become stronger. Of course supporting characters can have wants and needs and their own personal arc but it’s not their story.

The Karate Kid wasn't an ensemble show either (until Cobra Kai), and you won't see me complaining that it desperately needs to be one. The difference is that it didn't keep Johnny Lawrence around to have his only use as a character be train in vain and be beaten to show off how strong or scary the new characters that Daniel will eventually fight are, repeatedly.

[Mr Baggins]

I think the notion of the earthlings lamenting they are out of the new villain's league is blown out of proportion, I mean they do complain but it's not that big of a deal.

I'd add that's the whole point, really.

The earthlings lament falling behind and some of them are willing to retire from fighting altogether, which is why they'll never be the best. Vegeta wants to be the best, which is why he'll never quite be the best. Goku just wants to be better than he was yesterday, which is why he'll always be the best (among his group).

That's the motif of Dragon Ball distilled into a single character, while other characters are used as foils to emphasize that motif. This is theming 101, and the foundation from which the entire series is built.

Them getting sidelined as fighters is a feature, not a bug – one that Toriyama consistently put to great use.

[Kid Buu]

The reason why I enjoyed Yamcha & co. Vs. Ginyu Force is that it gave them SOMETHING to do. Otherwise they pretty much just spent the entire arc training and not much else.