How do you feel about the trope where everyone waits for Goku?

[Koitsukai]

I think it became a self-conscious trope, since Akira used it as a red herring in the Cell arc, and in the Buu arc he was purposely left out.

However, it made sense in the first two Z arcs to wait for him. On Namek, they were waiting for the Legendary Super Saiyan, and on Earth they were waiting for the invaders’ countryman. And the invaders were waiting on Goku because of their personalities.
Diegetically, it’s justified. It’s not just because Goku is the MC.
This is a story that has treated its MC this way since the beginning, he’s been privileged from the get-go, and the story has explained why every step of the way: Prodigy > hard worker > fast learner > alien > alien legend.

[Kenji]

I just remembered about one very bad event from Namek that exemplifies my hatred for this trope:
When Kuririn and Gohan get their "potential" unlocked by Guru.

The results of said event are:
- Kuririn gets over his own head and gets himself spotted by Vegeta.
- He and Gohan spend a lot of time planning to get to Guru to unlock Gohan's potential thinking it will help.
- They get themselves spotted by Vegeta again when they decide to speed things up.
- Gohan's potential ultimately gets him nowhere near Vegeta's level.
- The Ginyu Force arrives and they all get their asses kicked.
- Kuririn laments that all of this potential unlocking thing was a waste, after all.
- Goku arrives and effortlessly beats everyone up.

And as a bonus, word by word:


This is hardly the only instance of this trope at play.
How anybody considers this satisfying storytelling is beyond me.

[JulieYBM]

I think 'strength' muddles the waters of what necessarily is important here. Gohan and Kuririn do not need to be the strongest for their character arcs to feel fulfilling, they simply need to be treated as the emotional focus of the arc. I think that gets losts once Gokuu arrives on Namek and never quite comes back. Imagine Toriyama actually throwing us into Gohan's perspective for the rest of the arc, especially after he's the only one left? Piccolo? On-deaths-door. Gokuu? Seemingly dead after Freeza knocks him into the lava. Kuririn? Here-and-there. Let that stick! Let us see Gokuu's return through Gohan's eyes! Let us see Gohan saving the Namekians and getting them safely to Earth! Let us see his father, lost out in the stars after the destruction of Planet Namek, now having to look forward with uncertainty, but with conviction for to keep fighting.

[MasenkoHA]

Sailor Venus killed Queen Beryl in the manga.

And then Sailor Moon Crystal changed that so Venus failed pathetically and Sailor Moon got to kill Beryl instead.
"Well duuurrhhhh, Sailor Moon is the protagonist, she gets protagonist privileges!" - Said no one ever to praise this change.

The problem with Crystal is it took ALL the Guardian Senshi’s Shitennou kills to create a completely pointless and superfluous romance with the Dark Kingdom Shitennou and then took Venus’s Beryl kill on top of it to give to Moon


This would be comparable if Dragon Ball Z decided to adapt the Saiyan arc so Goku comes and kills all the Saibaman in addition to Nappa.

[Yuji]

Out of curiosity, could you name a story where a side character gets the spotlight and kills the main villain? A story where the final battle, the day is won not by the protagonist(s), but by a side character?

Dragon Ball does this constantly. Vegeta is defeated by Gohan (Goku is out of commission halfway through the battle). Cell is defeated by Gohan. Zamasu is defeated by Trunks (Zeno, if you want to be pedantic). Gas is defeated by Granolah/Freeza. Cell Max by Gohan.

Even Buu wasn't really beaten by Goku if we're being honest. Fat Buu basically did all the fighting while Goku just hit the finisher using an attack made from everyone else energy.

Yes, ever since Raditz, with the notable exception of Freeza, going all the way up to the current day, every major antagonist has been defeated by someone else or a team effort. Or they lost outright.

[Kenji]

The problem with Crystal is it took ALL the Guardian Senshi’s Shitennou kills to create a completely pointless and superfluous romance with the Dark Kingdom Shitennou and then took Venus’s Beryl kill on top of it to give to Moon


This would be comparable if Dragon Ball Z decided to adapt the Saiyan arc so Goku comes and kills all the Saibaman in addition to Nappa.

The problem with Crystal and even the original manga is the same as Dragon Ball's: Most characters not named Usagi/Mamoru/Chibi-Usa exist solely to be killed off and drive her to get depressed and angry at the villain. Crystal made the problem worse, but it was still there to begin with.

The worst example of this is the Black Moon arc where every single Guardian's (except Venus, and even she is mishandled) role in the entire story is to get captured by the monster of the week and spend their entire time in Black Moon's dungeon rotting away, only so they can come back in the climax and do absolutely nothing.

The 90's anime adaptation and live-action series thankfully gave them better things to do that weren't "Be beaten/captured/look absolutely pathetic to show off how absurdly awesome Sailor Moon is." That doesn't mean Sailor Moon is any less the protagonist of the story or the strongest fighter of the team, she's still the one to finish off the monsters and save the day in the end, but you can't deny the characters were handled infinitely better in comparison to the manga.

All of this is to say: Toriyama's utilization of his cast, regardless of whether you consider Dragon Ball as an ensemble story or not, is easily one of the worst I have ever seen. I'm not going to excuse it away or give him credit for writing his characters like absolute shit.

[Kid Buu]

Well the manga was more about Usagi's relationship with Mamoru while the anime was more about Usagi's friendships with the other Sailor Soldiers. PGSM was a good mix of both.

That said, Crystal definitely the dropped the ball even as a manga adaptation IMO.

[SupremeKai25]

The characters did things in the meantime, yes.
But the story still frames itself like their success depended on Goku's return at the end of the day.

"What a fearsome Ki. Hold on just a little more, you guys, I'm going to get out of this tube any second now!"
- No, this is not Toei filler, this is a panel that Toriyama used at least once per chapter in the manga.

Every single plan, training, power-up or achievement on part of the other characters is meant to either fail or make things worse so Goku can deal with the problem himself. It makes everything that transpired feel like padding.

Out of curiosity, could you name a story where a side character gets the spotlight and kills the main villain? A story where the final battle, the day is won not by the protagonist(s), but by a side character?

Dragon Ball does this constantly. Vegeta is defeated by Gohan (Goku is out of commission halfway through the battle). Cell is defeated by Gohan. Zamasu is defeated by Trunks (Zeno, if you want to be pedantic). Gas is defeated by Granolah/Freeza. Cell Max by Gohan.

It is quite literally the only battle Shounen I can think of where side characters consistently get the W over the major villain. It's surprising it gets any criticism about this at all.

Gohan and Trunks are definitely not side characters, they're main characters of their respective arcs. Gohan is the main hero in the Cell saga and the Super arc is literally named after Future Trunks.

I definitely wouldn't put Gohan and Future Trunks on the same level as the humans in terms of story relevance.

[Kenji]

Well the manga was more about Usagi's relationship with Mamoru

Which is a huge problem considering Sailor Moon was conceived as a Sentai story as opposed to Sailor V as the singular hero.
This goes back to what I was saying before: If you have no use for the other characters: Either write them better or write them out.

[Kid Buu]

Yeah I enjoyed the Sailor V manga more than the Sailor Moon manga, but I know not everyone agrees with that opinion.

[MasenkoHA]

The 90's anime adaptation and live-action series thankfully gave them better things to do that weren't "Be beaten/captured/look absolutely pathetic to show off how absurdly awesome Sailor Moon is." That doesn't mean Sailor Moon is any less the protagonist of the story or the strongest fighter of the team, she's still the one to finish off the monsters and save the day in the end, but you can't deny the characters were handled infinitely better in comparison to the manga.

The big difference between the manga and the 90s anime is the latter had more time to do that. The manga has a monthly release and the anime aired weekly. This is why we have an anime adaptation where first 46 episodes series is “adapting” 13 and half chapters of the manga. Sailor Moon was also conceived as both a manga and anime series so Takeuchi was probably somewhat relying on the anime to do the heavily lifting with the characters.

All of this is to say: Toriyama's utilization of his cast, regardless of whether you consider Dragon Ball as an ensemble story or not, is easily one of the worst I have ever seen. I'm not going to excuse it away or give him credit for writing his characters like absolute shit.

But your argument for “it’s bad” hasn’t been anything other than the characters don’t win tournaments and still they acknowledge Goku is stronger than them.

Krillin acknowledging they need Goku on Namek doesn’t prevent him and Gohan from trying when the Ginyu Force arrives even if that mean teaming up with Vegeta.


And like nobody is trying to convince you Dragon Ball is a masterpiece of fiction or whatever you think you’re going against. The characters are functional. They serve the purpose they need in their role for a weekly comic book. And when they no longer have a role to fill they usually DO get written out. Oolong didn’t get thrown into story arcs just because he’ was there from the beginning. He had no place once the story moved away from Journey to the West so he festered away in the background. When Yamcha, Chaozu, and Tenshinhan served their final purpose as cannon fodder and a plot device to get to Namek they pretty much did get phased out of the story.

[Kenji]

The big difference between the manga and the 90s anime is the latter had more time to do that. The manga has a monthly release and the anime aired weekly. This is why we have an anime adaptation where first 46 episodes series is “adapting” 13 and half chapters of the manga. Sailor Moon was also conceived as both a manga and anime series so Takeuchi was probably somewhat relying on the anime to do the heavily lifting with the characters.

Their characterization is not even the problem, the problem is how they're consistently portrayed as weak and helpless in battle in stark contrast to Sailor Moon, and how that's the only use they ever get in the story as characters... You know, like in Dragon Ball.

I can definitely empathize with creators having to answer to a tight schedule as demanded by their corporate overlords, and I recognize Naoko Takeuchi and Toriyama barely had any time to plan things before the next week, but just because I can empathize with that doesn't mean I have to call the end result of said exploitation good.

But your argument for “it’s bad” hasn’t been anything other than the characters don’t win tournaments and still they acknowledge Goku is stronger than them.

That wasn't and was never my argument. I was just using the tournaments as an example. Read the comment above.

And like nobody is trying to convince you Dragon Ball is a masterpiece of fiction or whatever you think you’re going against.

Dragon Ball is a flawed, but enjoyable and at times well-written product.
I am not arguing against that.

This thread is about what you feel about the "wait for Goku" trope.
And I'm arguing that this is a terrible, repetitive storytelling tactic that often mishandles the cast.

It's okay, just because I hate one aspect of Dragon Ball's storytelling, doesn't mean I hate all of it.
Saiyan and Early Namek are still two of the best arcs in the franchise for me despite me hating this trope.

The characters are functional. They serve the purpose they need in their role for a weekly comic book. And when they no longer have a role to fill they usually DO get written out. Oolong didn’t get thrown into story arcs just because he’ was there from the beginning. He had no place once the story moved away from Journey to the West so he festered away in the background. When Yamcha, Chaozu, and Tenshinhan served their final purpose as cannon fodder and a plot device to get to Namek they pretty much did get phased out of the story.

OK, one simple question:
Other than "get beaten," what is Yamcha's purpose in the story past the very first arc?
In all of Dragon Ball's 10-year run, what did Yamcha do of meaningful other than "get beaten"?

Answer: Nothing.
He's "Bulma's boyfriend," that's it. He sticks around the entire manga like a sore thumb only to do nothing other than get his ass kicked to make other characters look more appealing.

Don't you think this is a little lacking and repetitive?
Don't you wish Toriyama did more with Yamcha?
Or wrote him out to focus on the more important characters?
Or just found another more creative way to make the other characters look more appealing than just beating him up?

Now, replace "Yamcha" with most other characters past their introductory arc, and you can see the problem here.

[MasenkoHA]

The big difference between the manga and the 90s anime is the latter had more time to do that. The manga has a monthly release and the anime aired weekly. This is why we have an anime adaptation where first 46 episodes series is “adapting” 13 and half chapters of the manga. Sailor Moon was also conceived as both a manga and anime series so Takeuchi was probably somewhat relying on the anime to do the heavily lifting with the characters.

Their characterization is not even the problem, the problem is how they're consistently portrayed as weak and helpless in battle in stark contrast to Sailor Moon, and how that's the only use they ever get in the story as characters... You know, like in Dragon Ball.

It’s been a while since I’ve read the manga but I don’t really recall that being a big issue . Like even when they get captured one by one in Black Moon they still get to destroy droids. I definitely get that that Takeuchi doesn’t seem to care much about the non-Usagi girls but they never came off as helpless. When Crystal took away their Shitennou kills it felt less “great now they come off even more weak” and more “there wasn’t a whole lot of characterization to begin with and now the anime has robbed them of their moment to shine in the first arc”

OK, one simple question:
Other than "get beaten," what is Yamcha's purpose in the story past the very first arc?
In all of Dragon Ball's 10-year run, what did Yamcha do of meaningful other than "get beaten"?

As we’ve established yes Yamucha’s role was to get beaten.

Answer: Nothing.
He's "Bulma's boyfriend," that's it. He sticks around the entire manga like a sore thumb only to do nothing other than get his ass kicked to make other characters look more appealing.

Don't you think this is a little lacking and repetitive?
Don't you wish Toriyama did more with Yamcha?
Or wrote him out to focus on the more important characters?
Or just found another more creative way to make the other characters look more appealing than just beating him up?

Now, replace "Yamcha" with most other characters past their introductory arc, and you can see the problem here.

Yes, I and probably every Dragon Ball fan ever am aware that Yamcha’s character is largely just there to get beaten. This is what I mean by the characters are functional.

You need Goku to make it to the finals and Kuririn to make it to the semi finals (and both lose to Roshi) but you need Jackie Chun to mop the floor with a character we established is strong and not just some random participant. There’s Yamcha

You need to escalate the conflict between the Turtle School and Crane School so you need Ten to maim a student of the Turtle school. You could make it Kuririn but you also want to score a quarter finals win for the Turtle School and also want a friendly sparring match between Goku and Kuririn. There’s Yamcha

At no point can you really say “Yamcha could have been replaced with a random” and it would have had to the same impact.

And outside the anime’s additional scenes? He really isn’t there all that much. We don’t see him again for the 21st Tenkaichi Budoaki arc until the preliminaries for example. The story never pretends he’s a major character past the initial arc. He’s useful as far as he’s a established fighter to fill out the tournament bracket. Minor characters and supporting characters exist for a reason.

[Kenji]

You need Goku to make it to the finals and Kuririn to make it to the semi finals (and both lose to Roshi) but you need Jackie Chun to mop the floor with a character we established is strong and not just some random participant. There’s Yamcha

At no point can you really say “Yamcha could have been replaced with a random” and it would have had to the same impact.

Nam put up a better fight than Yamcha, and he didn't need to beat up some previous character implied to be strong to do it.
This is my point, if Toriyama wanted, he could absolutely convey the idea that a character is strong and they mean business without reducing his pre-established cast to a joke. He simply chose the easy way out and subject his non-Goku characters to "The Worf Effect" often to achieve that.

Personally, I find the "cannon fodder" route to be uninteresting, lazy and lame.
"Functional" doesn't mean "interesting."

[Kid Buu]

Regarding Sailor Moon, I do like how the anime gives the other Senshi more time to develop. On the other hand, I really feel like the Usag-Mamoru dynamic just got thrown to the wolves. Usagi personality kept resetting every season, to the point where it almost felt like Mamoru was her babysitter by SuperS anime. That's why I like PGSM - it takes what I like about the anime and the manga and combines then.

Regarding Yamcha, one thing I like about the baseball episode is that it shows that even though Goku and Vegeta outclass everyone else in fighitng, they're are other aspects where another character is better at something else. The death pose meme was a bit too much but I still liked it.

[Kenji]

My example with Sailor Moon and its adaptations was just that you can absolutely do a better job as a writer to convey a level of threat/strength without needing to go "These other guys suck lol" like Toriyama and Naoko Takeuchi love doing in their own respective mangas.

You need a villain in Dragon Ball to appear strong? You have the Dragon Team.
You need a villain in Sailor Moon to appear strong? You have the Manga!Senshi.

[Kid Buu]

Hey, anime Yamcha beat Recoome and the otherworld guys.

Also faced Tambourine to a no contest.

[Koitsukai]

I think there’s a misunderstanding of how these characters function. Yamcha was introduced with comedic traits, a desert bandit whose weakness is women, but still a competent fighter within the early power scale. Saying he “became a joke” ignores that this tone was part of the series from the beginning.

Dragon Ball’s structure is built around characters serving a purpose and then taking a step back as the story moves forward. The cast doesn’t exist as permanent narrative vehicles. They remain part of the group, but the story keeps progressing through new characters who take over different roles.

-Yamcha serves as a benchmark. We know his level, his defeat makes the threat immediately feels real, and we like the guy, we know him since day one, so if he dies it hits harder than Ten's death but not as hard as Krilin's.
He isn’t interchangeable with other characters.

-Tenshinhan serves a different purpose, he is the reformed antagonist. He is the guy that defeated Goku while being an ideological rival, he is there to make Goku want to improve himself even more. He's MC fuel.

-Krilin serves a different purpose, he is the MC's best friend and the emotional anchor, the closest human perspective, showing courage against overwhelming odds.

Their deaths carry different narrative weight. Krilin’s death is reserved for major turning points, serving a much bigger purpose: fulfilling an ancient alien prophecy. Having him die in the Saiyan arc would have been a narrative waste, and on Namek, almost no other death would have hit as hard. Tenshinhan’s role, meanwhile, isn’t expendable in the same way. Piccolo's death goes without saying.
Yamcha fills that space perfectly.

[Kenji]

OK, another simple question:
Did you guys feel anything about Kuririn's death in GT? Or Piccolo's death in Super?

I mean, it's functional. I know why it's there. The writers want me to feel sad because this character we have known for so long has died. But personally? Neither of these moments brought me any reaction other than "Meh!" and possibly a lot of frustration, for one simple reason:

I have already seen this repeated to Hell.

I have already seen Kuririn, Roshi and Chiaotzu die in the Piccolo saga.
I have already seen Piccolo make the Dragon Balls unusable during the Piccolo saga and make their resurrections impossible.
I have already seen Chiaotzu die a second time in the Saiyan Saga and Tien go "Oh no, now we can't resurrect him anymore, I'm so angry!"

So when all of this happens again during Freeza, with Goku whining that he's so angry because he can't bring Kuririn back... I felt nothing. Maybe it's the power of foresight, knowing what will happen next, but the fact this is a common occurrence in this story and not a self-contained incident didn't do the scene any favors.

Yes, the characters are functional, I know why all of this is happening.
Does it make interesting or original? No.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record: I don't think "We have stock characters we can beat/kill at the plot's convenience, often while they wait for Goku to save them" is anywhere near good writing. If it happened just once, fine. But when it happens so damn often? No.

[VegettoEX]

So when all of this happens again during Freeza, with Goku whining that he's so angry because he can't bring Kuririn back... I felt nothing. Maybe it's the power of foresight, knowing what will happen next, but the fact this is a common occurrence in this story and not a self-contained incident didn't do the scene any favors.

Yes, because it's one moment after another -- it's Piccolo getting shot, it's Kuririn exploding, and it's Freeza explicitly saying he's turning his attention to Gohan next. Freeza is systematically taking out everyone around Goku, after he's given it his all with everything HE had and everything the PLANET had. Perhaps none of these in isolation as a "self-contained incident" would be enough, but at least in this case we're not (and can't be) talking about events in isolation, we're talking about a full narrative here.

Piccolo in Super? Yeah, sure, I felt nothing... but I already felt nothing from that entire production. They could have pulled the most novel writing twist out of nowhere and I still would have felt nothing due to its surrounding circumstances.