How do you feel about the trope where everyone waits for Goku?

[Kenji]

I'd argue Vegeta's arc was already complete with his sacrifice and willingly dooming himself to Hell to fix his own screw up. I wish it stuck.

[MasenkoHA]

I'd argue Vegeta's arc was already complete with his sacrifice and willingly dooming himself to Hell to fix his own screw up. I wish it stuck.

Or do what the Fusion movie did and have come back to help stop Boo and then return to the next world.

I do think it was necessary for Vegeta to help clean up the mess he created .

[JulieYBM]

I get the frustation on Gohan losing, but on the other hand, I do like how the Kid Buu fight leads to Vegeta and Mr. Satan's arc getting completed.

I absolutely think that there's a story to tell with Gohan not being the one to defeat Majin Buu, it simply needs to be told. The big issue that makes the Majin Buu arc fall face-first into the shit isn't that Gohan loses against Majin Buu, it's that he stops having a character arc. Toriyama makes the gingerbread house but doesn't finish the roof or tidy up his workspace afterward.

I'd argue Vegeta's arc was already complete with his sacrifice and willingly dooming himself to Hell to fix his own screw up. I wish it stuck.

Or do what the Fusion movie did and have come back to help stop Boo and then return to the next world.

I do think it was necessary for Vegeta to help clean up the mess he created .

I can see either way working, but Vegeta fully vacating the story after his sacrifice really only works if those threads get picked up by Trunks and Blooma. If we don't see Vegeta again after he goes boom-boom, then Blooma corralling everyone up and somehow contributing to the defeat of Majin Buu hits really hard. Heck, give her Mr. Satan's role! Let the girl have some interior and place in the story! Let's see her bitter feelings toward's Vegeta's actions culminate in her getting Gokuu the Genki he needs for his Dama!

[Zebra]

Gohan never deserved to be put in the role of protagonist, and it was obviously never going to work out in the long run when Gokuu was so iconic.

I would've had Gohan and Gotenks fight Pure Boo alongside Gokuu and Vegeeta on the Kaioushin World instead of leaving them on Earth with all the fodder characters, but the plot demanded that Pure Boo be defeated by the Genkidama. Having Gohan and Gotenks just be more punching bags for Pure Boo wouldn't really make all that much of a difference, as forced as killing them off was. The only real purpose it'd serve would be to hype Pure Boo up as more of a threat, which would benefit the plot to an extent, but it's not a huge improvement.

While all the Gokuu wank gets annoying, it's what Dragon Ball is known for; Gokuu shines the brightest, and everyone else is his cheerleader to varying degrees.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

It really feels to me as though Toriyama didn't fully think through the long term ramifications of the "passing the torch" aspect of trying to succeed Goku with Gohan in the Cell arc, and then come the Buu arc after trying to make him have a meaningful role more or less fumbled then he effectively gave up. Trying to fit a square peg in a round hole didn't end up panning out, as Gohan couldn't effectively work as a protagonist in Goku's place despite Toriyama trying as best he could to push the narrative in that direction but then couldn't pull it off in execution, especially given the inexplicable shift during the Androids arc as already mentioned elsewhere here.

The Saiyaman stuff, his Next World training with the Elder Kaioshin and the Z-Sword among others had some potential but then his character arc pretty much petered out after that point.

[Mr Baggins]

The Saiyaman stuff, his Next World training with the Elder Kaioshin and the Z-Sword among others had some potential but then his character arc pretty much petered out after that point.

I still don't see any of this as his character arc petering out. The culmination of Gohan's throughline in the Buu arc is that he's choosing to face his obstacles alone now instead of being forced into it as he was during the Cell arc. The idea behind his plotline is that he got weaker by abandoning his training, then made an active choice to get strong again and take the lead of his own accord.

He loses pretty abruptly because he gets careless in the moment, and this loss is presented as a way to raise tension while Goku desperately looks for a fusee to merge with. But none of that diminishes what Gohan stepping up meant for his character.

I will agree that between him and Vegeta, Vegeta's payoffs in the arc hit much harder.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

The Saiyaman stuff, his Next World training with the Elder Kaioshin and the Z-Sword among others had some potential but then his character arc pretty much petered out after that point.

I still don't see any of this as his character arc petering out. The culmination of Gohan's throughline in the Buu arc is that he's choosing to face his obstacles alone now instead of being forced into it as he was during the Cell arc. The idea behind his plotline is that he got weaker by abandoning his training, then made an active choice to get strong again and take the lead of his own accord.

He loses pretty abruptly because he gets careless in the moment, and this loss is presented as a way to raise tension while Goku desperately looks for a fusee to merge with. But none of that diminishes what Gohan stepping up meant for his character.

I will agree that between him and Vegeta, Vegeta's payoffs in the arc hit much harder.

I mean, in the general sense that even with those things that Toriyama’s narrative decision to make Gohan the protagonist ultimately it didn’t work out in the end. Though yeah between the two it seems like Vegeta was much better paid off in that regard.

[jjgp1112]

It really feels to me as though Toriyama didn't fully think through the long term ramifications of the "passing the torch" aspect of trying to succeed Goku with Gohan in the Cell arc, and then come the Buu arc after trying to make him have a meaningful role more or less fumbled then he effectively gave up. Trying to fit a square peg in a round hole didn't end up panning out, as Gohan couldn't effectively work as a protagonist in Goku's place despite Toriyama trying as best he could to push the narrative in that direction but then couldn't pull it off in execution, especially given the inexplicable shift during the Androids arc as already mentioned elsewhere here.

The Saiyaman stuff, his Next World training with the Elder Kaioshin and the Z-Sword among others had some potential but then his character arc pretty much petered out after that point.

I'd be willing to bet the moment he changed his mind for good was when he put Gohan in Goku's clothes and it made him realize he was forcing it. Why, with lack of a good idea for any alternatives, try to make Gohan into Goku when the real thing's still right there?

[ABED]

I'd argue Vegeta's arc was already complete with his sacrifice and willingly dooming himself to Hell to fix his own screw up. I wish it stuck.

Or do what the Fusion movie did and have come back to help stop Boo and then return to the next world.

I do think it was necessary for Vegeta to help clean up the mess he created .

Agreed and on top of that, while Vegeta does redeem himself to a degree by blowing himself up, it was worth bringing him back to witness his epiphany in finally admitting without it wounding his pride that Goku is #1.

As for the question at hand, I'm fine with it inherently but feel it's overused.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Agreed and on top of that, while Vegeta does redeem himself to a degree by blowing himself up, it was worth bringing him back to witness his epiphany in finally admitting without it wounding his pride that Goku is #1.

As for the question at hand, I'm fine with it inherently but feel it's overused.

Agreed, one of my favorite scenes in Dragon Ball. I wouldn't trade it for anything Gohan related personally

[Mr Baggins]

Vegeta's #1 speech is so good as a final capstone to his storyline throughout the series that it single-handedly justifies bringing him back, and further justifies the existence of Super Saiyan 3 beyond just being a red herring.

That's why I love the Buu saga. It isn't just about the next generation, and what limited buildup it gets doesn't overshadow other throughlines going on. EVERYONE gets a crack at Majin Buu (Satan probably makes more progress here than anyone) and so many character arcs feel like they reach their natural conclusion expressly because of their circumstances and obstacles. For Vegeta, it was redemption and coming to terms with not being the best. For Gohan, it was taking initiative – Goten and Trunks get almost nothing in comparison, despite being the main subjects of the "next generation" idea. For Goku, it was his payoff as a character in EoZ. It balanced a big cast of characters and gave them substantial growth, then served as a last hurrah to the series by finishing off crucial beats that started several arcs ago.

I also like that Toriyama had less editorial oversight than usual. That balls-to-the-wall approach made for an exciting, unpredictable plot with lots of twists and subversions where nobody had a clue what would happen next, in part because he was able to revisit his gag artist roots. It's fitting that Buu, the villain of this story, is an agent of chaos. It's tonally more in line with DB's early arcs while simultaneously feeling like a proper conclusion to the Z ones.

I'd trade nothing for it.

[Kid Buu]

Agreed and on top of that, while Vegeta does redeem himself to a degree by blowing himself up, it was worth bringing him back to witness his epiphany in finally admitting without it wounding his pride that Goku is #1.

As for the question at hand, I'm fine with it inherently but feel it's overused.

Agreed, one of my favorite scenes in Dragon Ball. I wouldn't trade it for anything Gohan related personally

Same, I'd rather see that bit for Vegeta than see Gohan beat Super Buu on the strength off a free power up.

[WittyUsername]

I don’t get why Toriyama tried to do that whole “next generation” idea in the first place. Did he think Goku was getting too old or something?

[Zebra]

Vegeeta's no.1 speech came out of nowhere. Upon seeing Gokuu again after returning to Earth, he was pissed off because Gokuu withheld SS3 from him. He refuses to fuse with him and crushes the Potala after they split inside of Boohan. Then, during SS3 Gokuu's fight with Pure Boo, he's suddenly in admiration and calls Gokuu no.1. Why the sudden change of attitude? If it was just because he realized Gokuu far outclassed him, he already knew beforehand; he saw SS3 Gokuu fight Fat Boo, didn't he?

Fat Boo kicked Vegeeta's ass, and SS3 Gokuu proved he was no weaker than Fat Boo when they fought. But when Pure Boo shows up on the Kaioushin Realm, Vegeeta wants to fight him first even though Pure Boo is much stronger than Fat Boo was. He only realizes Pure Boo far outclasses him after seeing SS3 Gokuu fight him. Shouldn't he have realized this just by feeling Pure Boo's Ki? It would've been better if Vegeeta's speech came after Pure Boo was defeated.

[MasenkoHA]

I don’t get why Toriyama tried to do that whole “next generation” idea in the first place. Did he think Goku was getting too old or something?

I don’t know if it was Toriyama’s reasoning but he really had nowhere to go at that point.

Winning a Tenkaichi Budokai and being declared the strongest man on earth was as close as the story got to concluding an overarching storyline that had been running pretty much the entire manga. The Saiyan/Freeza arc offered a backstory for Goku, not a necessary one but it had something to add I suppose. By the Cell arc Goku really is just there. If Toriyama had pressure to keep trucking for a while longer it made sense to realize Goku had been exhausted as a lead and if the story were to continue someone else needed to take over as lead.