How do you feel about the trope where everyone waits for Goku?

[ABED]

I'm fine with the trope. It works very well from the Piccolo Daimao arc through the Freeza arc, but that's it. Toriyama does it TWICE in the same arc and somehow it works both times. It's not nearly as effective in the Cell arc nor the Buu arc. In the Buu arc, when Goku returns to the battlefield, it's like "thank god, we're finally at the ending stretch," as opposed to "Thank god, Goku's finally arrived to save the day. Yay!"

[Yellow Flower King]

To be honest any sort of "X Trope" that is "Any given plot" or "Any given Event" can be done well or badly. The most exciting plot will never be as good as long as the execution is bad. Sure, we do get tired of "Oh Goku. Where are you Goku?" but in most instances it did work! Because Toriyama knew how to do a great execution. Even during the grueling terribly written Super era, we got great stories out of Toriyama. And when his stories were boring and dull Toei Animation's writers did improve a lot on his ideas as well.

Also has anyone had the issue that when thinking or writing in English one pronounces Goku like the Funimation dub does? I cant for the life of me pronounce Gokuu properly in English, mentally or vocally. its always GO-koo.

[Zebra]

Vegeta softening changes his outlook on EVERYTHING, including Goku, who has been his n1 obsession, so it only makes sense that the culmination of his development includes Goku, and it's disingenuous to say otherwise.

The moment Vegeeta sees Gokuu again after returning to Earth, he was butthurt over him hiding SS3. Ended up crushing the Potala, and even refused to do the fusion dance with him despite the fact they would've only been fused for 30 minutes. Nothing about that suggests him having softened up.

Vegeeta was an asshole the very moment he saw Gokuu again. Then, he randomly stops after Gokuu begins fighting Pure Boo.

You can't be serious... He has no way of learning how to do a Fusion dance that fast, in that situation, with the risk of it failing and delaying them for 30 mins at a time

As far he and Gokuu knew, they had all the time in the world to think of a plan before Pure Boo teleported to the Kaioushin Realm, so they could've agreed to practice the fusion dance.

Because of everything he went through during the arc? Because it's the culmination of an entire emotional journey?

You're just arguing in circles now. Why does he have to respect Gokuu in that very moment? Why not earlier? Why was he such a dick to Gokuu just a couple of minutes ago, but not now?

Sure, just ignore the entire journey and development he went through over the course of the story. You're acting as if people are static throughout their entire life and can't suddenly realize something they were wrong about, or gain a new perspective on things

And now you're strawmanning. Characters getting a new perspective on something is fine, but the issue is when it comes out of nowhere. Notice how you're not actually bothering to post a counterargument; just repeating what you're trying to prove without actually explaining why.

[PhantomSaiyan]

The moment Vegeeta sees Gokuu again after returning to Earth, he was butthurt over him hiding SS3. Ended up crushing the Potala, and even refused to do the fusion dance with him despite the fact they would've only been fused for 30 minutes. Nothing about that suggests him having softened up.

Good job at cherry picking and conveniently ignoring all of the other signs of him softening up that me and other users have been telling you about
I guess Vegeta is the same exact character that invaded Earth during the Saiyan Saga right? Definitely didn't soften up one bit. Nope not at all, still the same exact guy.

And now you're strawmanning. Characters getting a new perspective on something is fine, but the issue is when it comes out of nowhere. Notice how you're not actually bothering to post a counterargument; just repeating what you're trying to prove without actually explaining why.

0 strawmans were made, don't use words randomly. You're refusing to accept that a character gained a new perspective on things at the end of his journey, that's just reality, not a strawman.
And It did not come out of nowhere whatsoever, you're just choosing to ignore all of the signs of development and the context, and only seeing what you want to see, aka, being disingenuous on purpose. Or like I said, you're still confused about what character development is.
All of Vegeta's development led to this moment, him finally not lying to himself anymore and admitting the truth after years of denial and inferiority complex

You're just arguing in circles now. Why does he have to respect Gokuu in that very moment? Why not earlier? Why was he such a dick to Gokuu just a couple of minutes ago, but not now?

Ok, I'm gonna be nice and not use any offensive words, but at this point you're just saying shit for the sake of it, this is such a silly point, let's go with that.
It's possible to respect someone, and be a dick to them at the same time. You know... nuance? Does Vegeta have to either be a bootlicker to Goku and love him, or a complete asshole that despises him?
You do know that there's a nice middle road in between those two options? A road called "nuanced character with nuanced thoughts"?
And that there can be a difference between a character's thoughts and their actions? This can't be a new concept for you right?

As for your "why was he mad before but respected him soon after" silly point, I ask you this... You do know that there's stages of grief right? Starting with denial, then anger.. Ending in acceptance?
Would you look at that, it's exactly the same as what Vegeta went through! Almost as if it takes time to get over things and finally accept reality


You're hopeless. If I keep going with you, VegettoEX will appear. You're a brick wall that refuses to understand how characters (and people)'s actions and thoughts work, or what a character arc is, and I'm not looking to smash my head against such wall until I bleed

[Zebra]

Good job at cherry picking and conveniently ignoring all of the other signs of him softening up that me and other users have been telling you about

None of those "signs" had anything to do with Gokuu, as I already said. No cherrypicking or ignoring done on my part.

"He hugged his son"
"He gave his life away expecting nothing in return"

Despite doing all that, he was pissed at Gokuu the moment they saw each other again and was an ass to him all the way up to Pure Boo's arrival.

Vegeeta loved Bulma and Trunks, but he still hated Gokuu and showed no signs of warming up to him before making his speech. It is a very badly written scene, because even putting aside Vegeeta's speech, there's no reason why Vegeeta didn't realize how outclassed he was before.

I guess Vegeta is the same exact character that invaded Earth during the Saiyan Saga right? Definitely didn't soften up one bit. Nope not at all, still the same exact guy. Sure dude.

And this is more strawmanning.

First of all, 0 strawmans were made, don't use words randomly.

Strawmanning is when you deliberately distort the opposition into something that you can more easily debunk for your own convenience. What you did above is exactly that.

You're refusing to accept that a character gained a new perspective on things at the end of his journey.

No, I'm saying that his "new perspective" (immense respect for Gokuu) came out of nowhere, not that he didn't gain it.

Second, It did not come out of nowhere whatsoever, you're just choosing to ignore all of the signs and the context, and only seeing what you want to see, aka, being disingenuous on purpose. Or like I said, you're still confused about what character development is.

When you're not even bothering to address anything I said and are just calling me disingenuous without explaining how, it just comes across like you're covering your ears.

It's possible to respect someone, and be a dick to them at the same time.

Being a dick to someone is the very opposite of respecting them. You're not respecting someone when you're just being a dick to them.

Flip-flopping between the two just equals a tsundere. And if that's the direction Toriyama chose to take Vegeeta in, he did poor job at finding a balance between the two extremes.

And that there can be a difference between a character's thoughts and their actions?

If Vegeeta truly respected Gokuu in his thoughts all this time (not merely for his power, but his personality as we see during Vegeeta's speech), then Toriyama did a poor job at foreshadowing it.

As for your "why was he mad before but respected him soon after" silly point, I ask you this... You do know that there's stages of grief right? Starting with denial, then anger.. Ending in acceptance?

Denial doesn't always lead to anger, and anger doesn't always lead to acceptance. Toriyama rushed Vegeeta into the acceptance phase because he hurried to end the manga.

You're hopeless. If I keep going with you, VegettoEX will appear. You're a brick wall that refuses to understand how characters (and people)'s actions and thoughts work, or what a character arc is, and I'm not looking to smash my head against such wall until I bleed

You're the only one who's taking this so personally.

[PhantomSaiyan]

As I've said, hopeless

[Zebra]

If you have nothing else to add, then why bother responding? Right, to make yourself feel better by getting the last word in. You can't handle disagreements, so you have to resort to ad hominem.

[Yellow Flower King]

You two should move on, no one is going to convince the other.

[PhantomSaiyan]

If you have nothing else to add, then why bother responding? Right, to make yourself feel better by getting the last word in. You can't handle disagreements, so you have to resort to ad hominem.

Everything you've said here applies to you. You could have also not responded right? So don't play that game, whatever you want to accuse me of, you'd be just as guilty lol

[Zebra]

If you have nothing else to add, then why bother responding? Right, to make yourself feel better by getting the last word in. You can't handle disagreements, so you have to resort to ad hominem.

Everything you've said here applies to you. You could have also not responded right? So don't play that game, whatever you want to accuse me of, you'd be just as guilty lol

I'm not the one throwing around personal attacks. "You're hopeless, you're a brick wall". All over a difference in opinion.

I could've not responded, but your last response was smug, so why not? Since you wanna be a wise guy, it's fair game.

[PhantomSaiyan]

I'm not the one throwing around personal attacks. "You're hopeless, you're a brick wall". All over a difference in opinion.

I could've not responded, but your last response was smug, so why not? Since you wanna be a wise guy, it's fair game.

You keep being guilty of everything you're accusing me of lol your criticisms apply to you as well, so please, start playing a different game, because you're not winning at this one

Or in your words: "If you have nothing else to add, then why bother responding? Right, to make yourself feel better by getting the last word in. You can't handle disagreements, so you have to resort to ad hominem."

[Zebra]

I'm not the one throwing around personal attacks. "You're hopeless, you're a brick wall". All over a difference in opinion.

I could've not responded, but your last response was smug, so why not? Since you wanna be a wise guy, it's fair game.

You keep being guilty of everything you're accusing me of lol your criticisms apply to you as well, so please, start playing a different game, because you're not winning at this one

Or in your words: "If you have nothing else to add, then why bother responding? Right, to make yourself feel better by getting the last word in. You can't handle disagreements, so you have to resort to ad hominem."

I never insulted you once.

[PhantomSaiyan]

I never insulted you once.

Neither did I

[Jord]

I feel it also depends on how you experience the story. The anime has a lot of "Goku thinking in the tank on Namek" scenes, where he's stating the obvious, trying to fill air time. It makes the other characters' efforts seem even less important. I could see this being less annoying in the manga.

[MCDaveG]

It got already tired after Freeza arc in a sense and IMHO...
It was fun before, thanks to being invested also in other characters. With the final act against Freeza, it was already bit cumbersome, as we know that Gohan and Kuririn had no chance, but it got bit rectified with Piccolo's power-up and revival, which will follow the trope from now on.

For me, the trope works in original manga/DB and Z in anime, as even in Cell arc, there is huge progression with Vegeta, not to mention Trunks, that enriches the cast with extra SSJ and plot twist, that not even Goku is enough for Cell.
As a kid, I did like the Buu arc, as all the fights were entertaining, the stakes were rising with each cliffhanger and Buu decimating everyone and transforming, before there's just Goku and Vegeta left...
But even tho I do take it as given, the characters from before were outgrown and after Freeza arc, there is this shift that kinda makes everyone not being Saiyan (or alien/Piccolo) irrelevant.

The problem with this is, that movies, GT and all the subsequent stuff not rooted in OG manga story made it a trope, that creates "unnecesary filler" where nothing really happens and you have to watch it before the pay off, because they use the rest of the cast as cannon fodder, with no real chances, to get wasted before Goku arrives and paints him as the only solution, while nobody else gets even a piece of the whole cake, which is not the case in the OG story.
Even Kuririn had some hero and notable moments until Freeza arc (his kienzan was quite deadly technique that Nappa was forced not to underestimate and even made a mark on Freeza, not to mention scatter Kamehameha against Saibaimen), or Tienshinhan against King Piccolo. The only real loser, unfortunately, is Yamcha since the first onscreen tournament.

That model died with Buu arc, which became a role model for everything going forward.
Altho they tried to salvage it a bit during the TOP in Super with bigger success. I won't mention ROF, as even tho they employed the wider cast against Freeza's basic goons, it was more for visual effect and went all out of the window with Freeza.

[Kenji]

I myself found it getting cumbersome when the Ginyu Force arrived, because when Reacoom started beating everyone up, that was the exact point I started to notice... "Wait a minute, I've seen this before, it's exactly the Nappa situation, except no one died yet."

And then, the entire Freeza/Nail/Vegeta stuff happened and I went, "Wait a minute... Goku's out of the picture, the characters are on a stealth mission against Vegeta, a super powerful enemy arrives, they're forced to make a last-minute truce with Vegeta to beat him, they all fail, Goku arrives and- This is the Ginyu Force all over again, and that was already Nappa all over again!"

I think TFS had the right idea when they cut the Ginyu Force entirely out of their Kai Abridged series, because they added nothing to the narrative and existed merely as padding. Which goes back to me saying: It was fine executed once, but after that, it became repetitive and frustrating.

I think a way to have prevented this from happening was just bringing Goku along with them to Namek from the very beginning. Have him realize along with the others they're not powerful enough to battle these new foes and join them in the stealth mission.

[Zephyr]

A lot of creators spend their career kinda just refining and iterating on the same ideas, putting new spins on them. I don't even think it's exactly correct to call this a "Z trope". "Everyone waits for Goku" is a constituent part of the larger formula of:
[Goku gets his ass beat] -> [Goku recovers and gets stronger] + [others wait for Goku] -> [Goku arrives to save them]

It happening with Nappa, Ginyu, and Freeza is probably the most iconic streak of it, but it definitely has its roots in Piccolo Daimao and Tao Pai Pai.

I don't really mind it. Battles against antagonists in non-tournament arcs function structurally like tournament fights, the way Toriyama writes them and the way the characters conduct them. It's not for nothing that Chapter 509, where Goku is about to fight Pure Boo, is titled "A Match with the Whole Universe at Stake" (my emphasis). In the case of the Saibaimen & Nappa, the Ginyus, and Cell, we get antagonists going out of their way to structure the battles as matches.

In a tournament story, every major character gets at least one match. Multiple characters besides Goku even get a shot at the main antagonist before the grand finals. Main structural difference is that it's usually more of an elimination tournament rather than one with a bracket system. Similar to the Uranai Baba, Cell Games, and Universe 6 tournaments: when one of our guys loses, our next guy takes his spot.

---

With that in mind, the [others wait for Goku] part of the formula is effectively the other major characters' "matches", prior to Goku's obligatory grand finals (and yes, it is obligatorily Goku's grand finals; this is a story about his journey on the "tournament" circuit). Ten gets a "match" against Drum. Damn near everyone got a "match" against Nappa, and damn near everyone on Namek gets a match against at least one Ginyu, and against Freeza. This is why I've never sympathized with the "tennis" complaint when it comes to Freeza and Boo. You're reading a "tennis" manga. The question is, how well do the "tennis" matches stand out from one another?

The more varied the roster is for each tennis tournament, the more distinct they'll feel. As the story goes on, some major characters get replaced with other ones, meaning the roster will naturally change over time. But the more tournaments you have in quick succession, the less roster variation there will be between them. I think that contributes to the feeling of egregious repetitiveness in that most iconic streak of Nappa, Ginyu, and Freeza.

I think the Nappa and Ginyu instances are too similar, and I think that the Ginyu and Freeza instances so close together in the same arc is too soon. The rewrite-oriented part of my brain thinks it'd be worth cutting the Ginyu section, but the plot-thread-noticing part of my brain disagrees. Goku's fight with the Ginyus is when we first start getting all the hubbub about the Super Saiyan, and the question of if Goku is one. Goku's fight with Freeza is when we get the payoff to this setup, and confirm that, yes, Goku is one. Goku, Vegeta, and Freeza's characters this arc all seriously involve this question. And you have to give that question to the reader and have it enter the conversation the characters have with each other in order for it to be set up. If I removed the Ginyus, when, where, and how would I set all of that up? I guess as Vegeta is flying away from Earth at the end of the Saiyan arc? I don't know.

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I think Cell and Boo do fun things with the formula, though. The Cell arc has the reader believe that Goku waking up and training in the RoSaT is [Goku recovers and gets stronger], and that his fight with Cell is [Goku arrives to save them]. Nope! His fight with Cell is actually [others wait for Gohan], and now we're gonna get [Gohan arrives to save them]. Gohan's fight with Cell is also iterating on and inverting multiple other fight structures at the same time, but that's another topic.

The Boo arc has the reader believe that, okay, the new thing is [others wait for Gohan], got it. BUT a second Reverse Uno hits the tower, and [Gohan arrives to save them] is actually [others wait for Goku]. This is also one of multiple reasons the rewrite-oriented part of my brain wouldn't have Gohan beat Boo. The only issue with Gohan's loss is that his failure goes entirely unaddressed. If he was just a background character that'd be fine, but he began this story arc as the main character, so we should have had at least a little bit of clear text (ie: something more than subtext) wrapping up his arc before we get his nerd character design in the epilogue.