How do you feel about the trope where everyone waits for Goku?

[Kenji]

One issue I have the with the 'Gohan beats Super Buu' narrative is that it lacks any meaningful development. If there had been a story showing how his failure against Dabura made him realise the importance of training—even if he finds it boring—it could have felt earned and compelling. Instead, we just get 'he lost, received a free power-up, and then won,' which isn’t particularly exciting.

That's because "wait for [character]" isn't particularly exciting.
That was Goku's case in Namek as well. If you stop to think about it, Goku didn't really have that much of arc in Namek. He spends most of his time in space/in a tube, knows this Freeza guy is super strong, witnesses Vegeta and Kuririn dying, and that's about it. The entire narrative was built around Gohan, Kuririn, Dende, and Vegeta instead.

[Kid Buu]

One issue I have the with the 'Gohan beats Super Buu' narrative is that it lacks any meaningful development. If there had been a story showing how his failure against Dabura made him realise the importance of training—even if he finds it boring—it could have felt earned and compelling. Instead, we just get 'he lost, received a free power-up, and then won,' which isn’t particularly exciting.

That's because "wait for [character]" isn't particularly exciting.
That was Goku's case in Namek as well. If you stop to think about it, Goku didn't really have that much of arc in Namek. He spends most of his time in space/in a tube, knows this Freeza guy is super strong, witnesses Vegeta and Kuririn dying, and that's about it. The entire narrative was built around Gohan, Kuririn, Dende, and Vegeta instead.

Yeah, I like the Kid Buu storyline more for how it concludes Vegeta and Mr. Satan's character arcs, rather than Goku's role in it.

[WittyUsername]

It’s hard to shake the impression that the Ginyu Force largely exists to prolong the Freeza arc (and I guess because Toriyama felt like poking fun at tokusatsu tropes). Sure, them showing up is what leads to Vegeta allying himself with the heroes, but that easily could’ve been done in response to the threat of Freeza himself. On the other hand, the battle against the Ginyu Force is where we first hear about the Super Saiyan legend, but I highly doubt that was Toriyama’s reasoning for including those characters in the first place.

In general, things would probably seem less repetitive if the Ginyu portion was excised, thus saving the trouble of doing the “everyone waits for Goku” routine twice in the same arc.

[JulieYBM]

One issue I have the with the 'Gohan beats Super Buu' narrative is that it lacks any meaningful development. If there had been a story showing how his failure against Dabura made him realise the importance of training—even if he finds it boring—it could have felt earned and compelling. Instead, we just get 'he lost, received a free power-up, and then won,' which isn’t particularly exciting.

The whole arc needs to be reworked from the ground up, because the Kaioushin ritual really just doesn't add up to anything for Gohan as a character. Takeda should have been grilling Toriyama on where he was taking the story during each meeting.

[ABED]

It’s hard to shake the impression that the Ginyu Force largely exists to prolong the Freeza arc (and I guess because Toriyama felt like poking fun at tokusatsu tropes). Sure, them showing up is what leads to Vegeta allying himself with the heroes, but that easily could’ve been done in response to the threat of Freeza himself. On the other hand, the battle against the Ginyu Force is where we first hear about the Super Saiyan legend, but I highly doubt that was Toriyama’s reasoning for including those characters in the first place.

In general, things would probably seem less repetitive if the Ginyu portion was excised, thus saving the trouble of doing the “everyone waits for Goku” routine twice in the same arc.

But then we wouldn't have the awesomeness that is the Ginyu arc.

That was Goku's case in Namek as well. If you stop to think about it, Goku didn't really have that much of arc in Namek. He spends most of his time in space/in a tube, knows this Freeza guy is super strong, witnesses Vegeta and Kuririn dying, and that's about it. The entire narrative was built around Gohan, Kuririn, Dende, and Vegeta instead.

They played a part in the plot, but the narrative wasn't built around them. It was always building towards Goku and his inevitable clash with Freeza.

I think TFS had the right idea when they cut the Ginyu Force entirely out of their Kai Abridged series, because they added nothing to the narrative and existed merely as padding. Which goes back to me saying: It was fine executed once, but after that, it became repetitive and frustrating.

Of course they excised one of the best parts of the story. Stories about far more than plot. The Ginyu Force is made up some of the most fun and memorable characters and fights in all of Dragon Ball.

[Mr Baggins]

From a storytelling perspective, the Ginyu Force section is the nadir of the manga for me.

That's not to say they're not enjoyable characters, nor does it argue that they don't serve a purpose. These guys are goofy as fuck and provide a ton of much-needed levity and comic relief to an arc that's mainly SRS BSNS. They're so much stronger than any of the enemies our heroes had faced up until that point that they outclass Vegeta, forcing readers to think "how is anyone actually going to stop this dude?" when it's time for the protags to face off against the big bad Frieza himself and we're shown that even the cheapest strategies aren't doing shit anymore. As mentioned, this is also when the Super Saiyan foreshadowing really kicks off.

But I think all of this could have been written and paced more efficiently for a part of the story that could be argued to comprise an entire act. I wouldn't even remove the whole thing, but could probably do without the Ginyu body-swap plotline.

It's also pretty funny that throughout this thread, not once have I actually mentioned the trope being referenced in this topic's namesake. This kind of stuff barely registers in my writer brain whenever I go through the OG series (perhaps because I tend to parse out the subtext more than just text from readthroughs) but it's definitely hard to ignore here, where it's practically back-to-back in the same arc and executed better in the previous.

So to answer the topic, Namek is about the only point where I think it's not done particularly well. It says an awful lot that Namek is still a great time.

[Kenji]

The whole arc needs to be reworked from the ground up, because the Kaioushin ritual really just doesn't add up to anything for Gohan as a character. Takeda should have been grilling Toriyama on where he was taking the story during each meeting.

By that point, Toriyama was already overworked and stressed the fuck out of his head writing this thing for well over a decade. So, everyone involved just made him feel as comfortable as possible as he had already decided this would be the last arc of his manga. Which, yeah, didn't really make for good writing, but at least the man had fun drawing his last hurrah.

[Koitsukai]

I think the issue comes from thinking stories are math equations, if X doesn't serve a purpose then it is useless. It is not, some things are there to make us laugh, to relax for a bit, to be breathers.

The tokusentai are there to break the tension for a moment, like a pit stop (granted, it might overstay its welcome), while being pre-introduced as the four horsemen of the Apocalypse. Everything they do and say is funny and silly, even the straight man turned out to be as quirky as they come.
Life isn't filled with situations that only move our lives forwards, stories shouldn't either. The important thing is if the tokusentai worked as comic relief.

[JulieYBM]

I think the issue comes from thinking stories are math equations, if X doesn't serve a purpose then it is useless. It is not, some things are there to make us laugh, to relax for a bit, to be breathers.

The tokusentai are there to break the tension for a moment, like a pit stop (granted, it might overstay its welcome), while being pre-introduced as the four horsemen of the Apocalypse. Everything they do and say is funny and silly, even the straight man turned out to be as quirky as they come.
Life isn't filled with situations that only move our lives forwards, stories shouldn't either. The important thing is if the tokusentai worked as comic relief.

But we still take things from these moments and they add to us, especially when they bring us to near death. I'm not going to advocate expressly for removing the Gi-nyuu Tokusentai, but I think there's a better way to have written them to contribute to Gohan and Kuririn's growth. The problem is that Toriyama just starts spinning his wheels by this point instead of moving the characters forward. Fun little surprises in the house that you're building can't just fuck up the whole structure as a result.

[Kid Buu]

One issue I have the with the 'Gohan beats Super Buu' narrative is that it lacks any meaningful development. If there had been a story showing how his failure against Dabura made him realise the importance of training—even if he finds it boring—it could have felt earned and compelling. Instead, we just get 'he lost, received a free power-up, and then won,' which isn’t particularly exciting.

The whole arc needs to be reworked from the ground up, because the Kaioushin ritual really just doesn't add up to anything for Gohan as a character. Takeda should have been grilling Toriyama on where he was taking the story during each meeting.

Yeah I agree with what you said the other day that it didn't really feel like Toriyama knew what to do with Gohan after Namek. Almost felt like his arc was already kinda over when he learned to be brave on Namek.

Also, since we've been talking about Yamcha in this thread. Having been watching Super for the first time, I kind of wish Yamcha got the fight role that Master Rosh is getting int he Tournament of Power arc. I just got to the Roshi and Puar episode, and it was really uncomfortable.

[JulieYBM]

One issue I have the with the 'Gohan beats Super Buu' narrative is that it lacks any meaningful development. If there had been a story showing how his failure against Dabura made him realise the importance of training—even if he finds it boring—it could have felt earned and compelling. Instead, we just get 'he lost, received a free power-up, and then won,' which isn’t particularly exciting.

The whole arc needs to be reworked from the ground up, because the Kaioushin ritual really just doesn't add up to anything for Gohan as a character. Takeda should have been grilling Toriyama on where he was taking the story during each meeting.

Yeah I agree with what you said the other day that it didn't really feel like Toriyama knew what to do with Gohan after Namek. Almost felt like his arc was already kinda over when he learned to be brave on Namek.

Also, since we've been talking about Yamcha in this thread. Having been watching Super for the first time, I kind of wish Yamcha got the fight role that Master Rosh is getting int he Tournament of Power arc. I just got to the Roshi and Puar episode, and it was really uncomfortable.

Yeah, I don't think Toriyama had any idea what to do and Kondou and Takeda should have been keeping tabs on that as his editor. I get focusing on Trunks, but the way the story is just all over the place and Gohan just disappears only to return at the end with no real cohesive lines drawn to his previous character threads makes for a clunky back half.

The Muten Roushi stuff during the Tournament of Power is really unacceptable and the way that women and their historical treatment is seen as a cheap joke for a kid's cartoon and comic, rather than used a way to educate kids on an important topic, is just really mind-boggling.

JUMP in general has a major issue with this and the whole Muten Roushi thing in Dragon Ball Super is just evident that the people with the power to push these scenes through don't see women and girls as people.

[ABED]

I think the issue comes from thinking stories are math equations, if X doesn't serve a purpose then it is useless. It is not, some things are there to make us laugh, to relax for a bit, to be breathers.

The tokusentai are there to break the tension for a moment, like a pit stop (granted, it might overstay its welcome), while being pre-introduced as the four horsemen of the Apocalypse. Everything they do and say is funny and silly, even the straight man turned out to be as quirky as they come.
Life isn't filled with situations that only move our lives forwards, stories shouldn't either. The important thing is if the tokusentai worked as comic relief.

While I agree with the spirit of this, I wouldn't put it this way. I would say stories about more than just plot. There are things that add to a story, like character, humor, action, fun, breathers, etc. I do think this part of the story adds a lot. Humor is part of it, but The Ginyu Force isn't just there for us to relax. There is some genuine tension and they are an actual threat. The humor doesn't merely undercut the threat,k it aids in it. It's a wonderful contrast. And the other purpose they serve is to be an amuse bouche or appetizer.

Stories are meant to be enjoyed. Plot is a means to that end, not the end in itself.

i think Goku arriving late works both times in this arc, but if I only had the one, it would be this one. It is interesting that Goku taken out so early in the Cell arc. I don't have much else to add beyond that. In the Buu arc, everyone ends up "waiting around" even though it's clearly not the intent.

[Kid Buu]

The whole arc needs to be reworked from the ground up, because the Kaioushin ritual really just doesn't add up to anything for Gohan as a character. Takeda should have been grilling Toriyama on where he was taking the story during each meeting.

Yeah I agree with what you said the other day that it didn't really feel like Toriyama knew what to do with Gohan after Namek. Almost felt like his arc was already kinda over when he learned to be brave on Namek.

Also, since we've been talking about Yamcha in this thread. Having been watching Super for the first time, I kind of wish Yamcha got the fight role that Master Rosh is getting int he Tournament of Power arc. I just got to the Roshi and Puar episode, and it was really uncomfortable.

Yeah, I don't think Toriyama had any idea what to do and Kondou and Takeda should have been keeping tabs on that as his editor. I get focusing on Trunks, but the way the story is just all over the place and Gohan just disappears only to return at the end with no real cohesive lines drawn to his previous character threads makes for a clunky back half.

The Muten Roushi stuff during the Tournament of Power is really unacceptable and the way that women and their historical treatment is seen as a cheap joke for a kid's cartoon and comic, rather than used a way to educate kids on an important topic, is just really mind-boggling.

JUMP in general has a major issue with this and the whole Muten Roushi thing in Dragon Ball Super is just evident that the people with the power to push these scenes through don't see women and girls as people.

One idea I’ve considered is skipping Trunks entirely and bringing Future Gohan into the past instead. He could mentor the present-day Gohan directly, which would be a really compelling dynamic. Of course, without Trunks you lose that great contrast with Vegeta during the Android arc—unless you pair Vegeta with Goku and use the storyline as a way to gradually phase them out.

As for Muten Roshi, yeah… it’s rough. I’ll admit that as a kid I thought his antics were funny, but as an adult they’re just embarrassing. It’s even worse that this behaviour still shows up in modern Dragon Ball content. If it were up to me, he would’ve been written out a long time ago.

[Mr Baggins]

I don’t get why Toriyama tried to do that whole “next generation” idea in the first place. Did he think Goku was getting too old or something?

I missed this post. I think he only tries to do it for a short period.

In the Cell arc, Toriyama does it unironically; probably out of a desire to change the status quo or shake up the formula as he liked to keep his writing fresh. He mentions Goku getting too old mostly just in the context of Dragon Ball sequels, but it's possible that same thought crossed his mind as early as Cell. Nonetheless, at some point during serialization, he fully intended to make Gohan the lead, it didn't really work out, and he felt Goku was still most suited for the role. I assume he came to such a realization shortly after the Great Saiyaman plot following Cell's defeat, around the time Goku is brought back to Earth for a day.

In the Buu arc, however, it's a red herring right from the moment Goku says he wanted to pass the mantle to Goten and Trunks.

We know this because Goten and Trunks are arrogant little brats who have never experienced a high stakes battle in their lives and consistently never had the capacity to learn from said arrogance. And all while they're training and failing in various ways, it's actually Mr. Satan (from Goku's generation) making significant progress with Majin Buu. That's the story saying that Goku's approach isn't necessarily true, or that at least it isn't the only solution. The kids are "set up", sure, but they're implicitly set up to fail. Not once does the story lead anyone to believe that they're going to be the sole heroes when A) they're constantly fucking up because they're clearly not cut out for this, and B) other important throughlines are happening.

There's an argument to be made that this also extends to Gohan, particularly if you consider Gohan to be a part of the next generation referenced by Goku. Now, I understand why, if you're especially invested in Gohan's plotline throughout the manga, some might feel frustrated at seeing him abruptly get turned into absorption chewing gum at the expense of giving him a more impactful sendoff. Maybe there was a better way Toriyama could have handled that, even with the development he got, though I still think his being written out works for what the arc was trying to accomplish with everyone narratively.

In sum: I think Toriyama wanted it to happen because he was just riffing along, realized his heart wasn't in it shortly after continuing on from Cell, then immediately readjusted. But all the torch-passing stuff from the Buu arc was an intentional mislead and was never going to happen as Goku projected it would.

[WittyUsername]

I don’t get why Toriyama tried to do that whole “next generation” idea in the first place. Did he think Goku was getting too old or something?

I missed this post. I think he only tries to do it for a short period.

In the Cell arc, Toriyama does it unironically; probably out of a desire to change the status quo or shake up the formula as he liked to keep his writing fresh. He mentions Goku getting too old mostly just in the context of Dragon Ball sequels, but it's possible that same thought crossed his mind as early as Cell. Nonetheless, at some point during serialization, he fully intended to make Gohan the lead, it didn't really work out, and he felt Goku was still most suited for the role. I assume he came to such a realization shortly after the Great Saiyaman plot following Cell's defeat, around the time Goku is brought back to Earth for a day.

In the Buu arc, however, it's a red herring right from the moment Goku says he wanted to pass the mantle to Goten and Trunks.

We know this because Goten and Trunks are arrogant little brats who have never experienced a high stakes battle in their lives and consistently never had the capacity to learn from said arrogance. And all while they're training and failing in various ways, it's actually Mr. Satan (from Goku's generation) making significant progress with Majin Buu. That's the story saying that Goku's approach isn't necessarily true, or that at least it isn't the only solution. The kids are "set up", sure, but they're implicitly set up to fail. Not once does the story lead anyone to believe that they're going to be the sole heroes when A) they're constantly fucking up because they're clearly not cut out for this, and B) other important throughlines are happening.

There's an argument to be made that this also extends to Gohan, particularly if you consider Gohan to be a part of the next generation referenced by Goku. Now, I understand why, if you're especially invested in Gohan's plotline throughout the manga, some might feel frustrated at seeing him abruptly get turned into absorption chewing gum at the expense of giving him a more impactful sendoff. Maybe there was a better way Toriyama could have handled that, even with the development he got, though I still think his being written out works for what the arc was trying to accomplish with everyone narratively.

In sum: I think Toriyama wanted it to happen because he was just riffing along, realized his heart wasn't in it shortly after continuing on from Cell, then immediately readjusted. But all the torch-passing stuff from the Buu arc was an intentional mislead and was never going to happen as Goku projected it would.

I do agree that Toriyama seemed to have second thoughts about Gohan being the lead the moment he had Goku come back for a day. I’ve seen people suggest that his decision to keep Gohan as the protagonist lasted all the way up until we learned that Majin Boo can absorb people, but I’m not convinced that’s the case, especially since he already apparently had plans for Goku and Vegeta to fuse.

I think the Boo arc in general was largely Toriyama throwing things at the wall to see what would stick. The arc introduces multiple potential ideas for how Boo would be defeated and I’m pretty sure Toriyama was just sort of winging it until he settled on an idea he liked. It’s perhaps the prime example of his infamous tendency to write by the seat of his pants.

[Yellow Flower King]

People absolutely LOATHE Gohan ending up with a nice, kind, badass girl who loves him and is the first serious student of Ki outside of Master Roshi's students. Gohan could teach humans how to use ki. Even being Yamcha level or higher would have you solo most of other threats. As more and more descendants of Saiyans are born Ki could be researched and harnessed by the average human. Not to mention, Goku wont live forever. Even now.

I GET the frustration that post revival every single Gohan scene or arc is simply him growing complacent, being challenged, he needs to train, fails to do anything, exit stage left, rinse repeat. I get that that's boring and tedious and frustrating. But that's the natural consequence of taking something that already had a really proper ending and extending it.

I do have a plotline for Gohan. What if he's not as happy and fulfilled as he seems? What if he carries serious trauma from his awful childhood? What if years of trying to cope properly just explode on his face? I would love to see Dragon Ball Future. I hated Steven Universe Future, but this exploration of the dark side of Gohan and his eventual healing would be amazing.

[Kenji]

People absolutely LOATHE Gohan ending up with a nice, kind, badass girl who loves him and is the first serious student of Ki outside of Master Roshi's students.

Who loathes that? As far as I know, people love Videl. What people loathe is her disgusting sexist treatment in the story.
"Girls are allowed to be strong- No, not that much. Look at this poor delicate little flower being brutalized by the bad guys! Isn't this horrifying? Doesn't it make you angry that a MAN is hitting a WOMAN?! There, she should sit aside and leave the rest to the real heroes, the men!"

[Yellow Flower King]

Oh THAT I absolutely loathe. I mean I hope Videl wasnt left permanently traumatized by Spopovich. I hope she still has fire within her and is more than just a housewife for Gohan.

[Osmium]

To answer OP, the trope is WAY older than the Nappa fight. Goku first did it against Blue when the latter was about to smash Kuririn’s skull in with a boulder, and then the first really famous example was against Piccolo Daimao, where Goku literally knocked Drum’s eyes out of the sockets.

It became a standard of the DB storytelling structure and its mileage varies based on how forced it feels. It worked perfectly with Nappa, and felt more stale in the Freeza stuff, especially considering it was done twice within that story. The first instance is especially lackluster considering the situation is nearly completely the same; Gohan and Kuririn are just about dead after a very protracted fight and Goku appears at the perfect moment to save the day. Even the reactions to Goku’s arrival are nearly identical. At least the second time there’s some difference since he wasn’t able to save Vegeta when based on precedent the audience may have expected him to just barely survive.

After Freeza Goku learns teleportation so there’s literally no excuse for Goku to show up at the last moment anymore, so Toriyama had to come up with other ways for Goku to be out of commission such as literally being dead or on the verge of death. Even so, nothing in the Cell arc really feels like a retread of what happened the last few times. When Goku teleported in, it was just to take Piccolo’s body away and not to fight.

[Osmium]

I mean your choices are

Goku dominates all his opponents

Goku gets his ass beat then comes back stronger than ever necessitating everyone waiting for Goku in the interim

Goku is indisposed of some inconvenience and everyone has to wait for Goku.

In a series about getting stronger and fighting stronger opponents the latter two are just going to happen a lot

Am I correct in stating the Red Ribbon Army arc is the only story to use all three of these tropes in the same plot?