How do you feel about the trope where everyone waits for Goku?

[JulieYBM]

Or what is stopping Videl from studying God ki and attaining it and Ultra Instinct?

[super michael]

It's false that there was nothing stopping Toriyama from making Earthlings as strong as Saiyans. What actually stopped him was the established narrative. This isn’t a minor detail, it’s the core lore of the series, and breaking it would undermine the internal logic of the world, especially that late in the story. If you were going to do that, it had to be established much earlier, not in the final arc of the series.

In the original series, characters got strong via:
- Magic Water
- Potential Unlocking
- Special Saiyan Coming Back Stronger Genetics™
- Special Saiyan Transformation Genetics™
- Special Namekian Merging Genetics™
- "Goten and Trunks got that strong with no training whatsoever lol"
- "Majin Boo is so strong he can break the rules of reality lol"

Now I ask you: Taking all of these into consideration, what exactly was stopping Toriyama from going "Videl was just born that strong lol"? Or what exactly was stopping him from giving the "Zenkai" or Super Saiyan power limits that prevent them from being abused? What was stopping him from doing this long after the original series ended with Super?

Answer: Nothing.

Seriously, #17 gets on Super Saiyan Blue level in Super with zero explanation, given that he's just a regular human with an energy core or whatever, and yet, asking that other non-Saiyan characters get the same treatment is somehow "asking too much"?

This is what it says in the manga about Trunks:
Gohan - Um... Where's Trunks? I don't want to just sit here...
Bulma - I bet Vegeta's whipping him into shape in the gravity room.
Gohan - What?! Vegeta...
Bulma - He says Trunks is old enough to get serious about training. I think he wants to make him stronger than you, you know.

Goten trains with Chi Chi, who can teach him hand to hand combat.
We know Goten and Trunks trains together.

We know Saiyans are able to be born with a strong power level, plus they are the only born from Super Saiyan parents. Hybrid Saiyans are stated to have more potential than pure blooded Saiyan.

Buuhan breaking reality was anime only, which didn't happen in the manga.

Anyone can have their potential unlocked, how much power would they get is unknown there is no way to predict. A character potential is unknown. Take Present Gohan and Future Gohan an example, they both got their potential unlocked, however their training was different therefore their power gain later in life was different. As for Zenkai for some reason no Saiyan gained it after the Namek Saga, even when the Saiyans were near death. These Saiyans got near death:

- C17 & C18 beating the Saiyans
- Semi Perfect Cell beating Vegeta
- Fat Buu and Buutenks beating Gohan
They were stated to almost die if they didn't heal.

C17 reaching SSB without training I will always consider that bad writing, even if he isn't a regular human anymore. Regular humans don't have infinite ki that can't be sensed.
As for Uub we know reincarnation are normally more powerful than their original version. Piccolo Jr greatly surpass Piccolo Daimao.

Or what is stopping Videl from studying God ki and attaining it and Ultra Instinct?

Nothing that is the answer. If she put in the work, then there is nothing stopping her.

Piccolo ask how did the gap between himself and Goku get so big, the answer should be so obvious. Goku training evolved that is why the gap became big. Goku gained new masters, new partner and new training method.

[Kenji]

So, #17 going Super Saiyan Blue level in Super is bad writing, but Trunks and Goten being able to go Super Saiyan 1/3 without any training or rage/trauma-inducing event in the original isn't? Nostalgia is one hell of a drug.

This is the same franchise where Goku put his hand on Kuririn's head and was able to read his mind, then proceeds to tell the audience "Oh, I just felt like if I did that, it would work. I didn't even know I had that power lol"

Toriyama's method for writing stories has always been, "Don't overplan." If he wanted something to happen, he usually threw all logic out of the window and made it happen. True, he gave excuses and justifications for it, some better than others, but the reality of it is that much of the original Dragon Ball story was driven by frequent ass pulls so Toriyama could have the scenario he wanted to play out.

Again, Dragon Ball is a fictional story, what is or isn't possible is entirely defined by what the writers want to do with it.

[super michael]

So, #17 going Super Saiyan Blue level in Super is bad writing, but Trunks and Goten being able to go Super Saiyan 1/3 without any training or rage/trauma-inducing event in the original isn't? Nostalgia is one hell of a drug.

This is the same franchise where Goku put his hand on Kuririn's head and was able to read his mind, then proceeds to tell the audience "Oh, I just felt like if I did that, it would work. I didn't even know I had that power lol"

Toriyama's method for writing stories has always been, "Don't overplan." If he wanted something to happen, he usually threw all logic out of the window and made it happen. True, he gave excuses and justifications for it, some better than others, but the reality of it is that much of the original Dragon Ball story was driven by frequent ass pulls so Toriyama could have the scenario he wanted to play out.

Again, Dragon Ball is a fictional story, what is or isn't possible is entirely defined by what the writers want to do with it.

Goten and Trunks did train, not sure where you are getting that they didn't train. They trained with their parent and with each other.
Present Gohan unlocked SSJ not through trauma but from training. This has nothing to do with nostalgia.
Goten and Trunks are the first Saiyan born from SSJ parents, plus it isn't unusual for Saiyan kids to surpass their parents. Goku and Vegeta both surpassed their parents. Saiyans babies can either be born weak or strong, that is how their society works. Then add the hybrid part which enhance a Saiyan power even more and you got a super baby.

Master Roshi could read someone mind from far away, not sure why it is impossible for Goku to read minds by putting his hand on Kuririn head. We know that Goku trains boths his mind not just his body. Goku even points out why Ginyu can't draw out Goku body full power.

Take Piccolo merging an example, we are told that Kami and Piccolo used to be a single entity but they split into two. If they can split, then it is no surprise that they can merge. Now Piccolo and Kami were on different planet, so they couldn't merge on Namek. Toriyama he gave some justification why things happens, which I believe is good enough.

As for C17 the only training that he can do is regular training or beat poachers, he doesn't have strong partner or special equipment to train.

[Kenji]

Present Gohan unlocked SSJ not through trauma but from training. This has nothing to do with nostalgia.

Except Goku instructed Gohan to think of the most rage-inducing moments he suffered in Namek, and his method for awakening SSJ2 was even more anger. It's interesting to note that Goten & Trunks are the only outliers of this. Both in GT and in Super, they doubled down on specifying that the trigger to Super Saiyan is rage.

As for C17 the only training that he can do is regular training or beat poachers, he doesn't have strong partner or special equipment to train.

Yet, somehow, Goten training with Chi-Chi, a regular human who never had any kind of special training at all, justifies learning Super Saiyan. I feel fans put more thought into justifying all of this than Toriyama himself did.

[super michael]

Except Goku instructed Gohan to think of the most rage-inducing moments he suffered in Namek, and his method for awakening SSJ2 was even more anger.

You are correct, Goku did instruct Gohan to focus on his rage instead of just simply building up his power. However it doesn't mean they can't discover new ways to gain transformations, Caulifla tingly feeling means focusing or charging her ki in a specific part of her body.

Yet, somehow, Goten training with Chi-Chi justifies learning Super Saiyan.
I feel fans put more thought into justifying all of this than Toriyama himself did.

Goten trained with Trunks, he didn't just train with Chi Chi only. If Goten trained with Chi Chi only, then I would agree that is bad writing.
Goten trained with Gohan later on and then they trained in the ROSAT

Before Goku turned into a Super Saiyan, no one knew what a Super Saiyan even looked like, they didn't know any requirement to even unlock it. It was all new and undiscovered. In the Cell Saga higher SSJ was new and undiscovered, they didn't know the conditions to transform.

Both Goten and Trunks had someone that had access to SSJ1/SSJ2 form and they both witnessed Goku turned SSJ1, SSJ2 and SSJ3 with their eyes.

Yet, somehow, Goten training with Chi-Chi, a regular human who never had any kind of special training at all, justifies learning Super Saiyan. I feel fans put more thought into justifying all of this than Toriyama himself did.

Chi Chi is a regular human true, however Master Roshi mentions that her fighting style resembles the turtle style. While weak compared to the Z fighters, she is still skillful in hand to hand combat. She can't train Goten to be strong, but teach him her skills. I know she can't teach ki control, since she has no skill in that area.

[Kenji]

You are running away from the point here:
There is no official justification as to why Goten and Trunks can go Super Saiyan.
Both Gohan and Vegeta question how they got there without any training or emotion-heavy event.
And they both answer: "...I don't know."



The way the comic frames this is that the writer himself doesn't know how he can logically justify any of this.
That's Toriyama's way of telling you: "Yeah, I know it's dumb, just roll with it."

That's the way he usually writes stuff.
And it's okay, because Dragon Ball was never meant to be too serious.
Just because you can head-canon an explanation for it, doesn't mean it's not an ass-pull.

Back to the original point:
The only reason why Videl is not as strong as the other characters is simply because Toriyama did not want her to be strong, despite introducing her as such, he thought she'd be ultimately better off in the kitchen.

You know how much of a wasted character she is when you realize Toei filler and the Z movies did more with her than Toriyama did, and that's a very, very, very low bar.

[super michael]

You are running away from the point here:
There is no official justification as to why Goten and Trunks can go Super Saiyan.
Both Gohan and Vegeta question how they got there without any training or emotion-heavy event.
And they both answer: "...I don't know."

In the image that you posted, Gohan asked Goten when he got Super Saiyan, not how he got it. Vegeta the same he thinks in his mind when did Trunks gain Super Saiyan, not how did he get it.
Why is it hard to believe there are alternate ways to unlock Super Saiyan? Kuririn thought only pure hearted Saiyan could gain Super Saiyan, he was surprised Vegeta gained it despite being evil.
Even Freeza thought the same to why Vegeta never gained Super Saiyan.

The only Saiyans to be born from Super Saiyan parents are Goten, Trunks, Bra and Pan. Before Goten and Trunks no Saiyan were born from Super Saiyan parents. Gohan was born when Goku didn't even know what a Saiyan was.

Back to the original point:
The only reason why Videl is not as strong as the other characters is simply because Toriyama did not want her to be strong, despite introducing her as such, he thought she'd be ultimately better off in the kitchen.

True Toriyama wrote that Videl is a regular human who only learned to fly from Gohan. Toriyama could have written that Videl continues training, there are many method to gain power in Dragon Ball. Videl was taught that ki was a trick, however thanks to Gohan that opened her eyes.

[Kid Buu]

It's false that there was nothing stopping Toriyama from making Earthlings as strong as Saiyans. What actually stopped him was the established narrative. This isn’t a minor detail, it’s the core lore of the series, and breaking it would undermine the internal logic of the world, especially that late in the story. If you were going to do that, it had to be established much earlier, not in the final arc of the series.

In the original series, characters got strong via:
- Magic Water
- Potential Unlocking
- Special Saiyan Coming Back Stronger Genetics™
- Special Saiyan Transformation Genetics™
- Special Namekian Merging Genetics™
- "Goten and Trunks got that strong with no training whatsoever lol"
- "Majin Boo is so strong he can break the rules of reality lol"

Now I ask you: Taking all of these into consideration, what exactly was stopping Toriyama from going "Videl was just born that strong lol"? Or what exactly was stopping him from giving the "Zenkai" or Super Saiyan power limits that prevent them from being abused? What was stopping him from doing this long after the original series ended with Super?

Answer: Nothing.

Seriously, #17 gets on Super Saiyan Blue level in Super with zero explanation, given that he's just a regular human with an energy core or whatever, and yet, asking that other non-Saiyan characters get the same treatment is somehow "asking too much"?

This is what it says in the manga about Trunks:
Gohan - Um... Where's Trunks? I don't want to just sit here...
Bulma - I bet Vegeta's whipping him into shape in the gravity room.
Gohan - What?! Vegeta...
Bulma - He says Trunks is old enough to get serious about training. I think he wants to make him stronger than you, you know.

Goten trains with Chi Chi, who can teach him hand to hand combat.
We know Goten and Trunks trains together.

We know Saiyans are able to be born with a strong power level, plus they are the only born from Super Saiyan parents. Hybrid Saiyans are stated to have more potential than pure blooded Saiyan.

Buuhan breaking reality was anime only, which didn't happen in the manga.

Anyone can have their potential unlocked, how much power would they get is unknown there is no way to predict. A character potential is unknown. Take Present Gohan and Future Gohan an example, they both got their potential unlocked, however their training was different therefore their power gain later in life was different. As for Zenkai for some reason no Saiyan gained it after the Namek Saga, even when the Saiyans were near death. These Saiyans got near death:

- C17 & C18 beating the Saiyans
- Semi Perfect Cell beating Vegeta
- Fat Buu and Buutenks beating Gohan
They were stated to almost die if they didn't heal.

C17 reaching SSB without training I will always consider that bad writing, even if he isn't a regular human anymore. Regular humans don't have infinite ki that can't be sensed.
As for Uub we know reincarnation are normally more powerful than their original version. Piccolo Jr greatly surpass Piccolo Daimao.

in the anime, Gohan is stated to have gotten stronger when Kabito healed him at the tournament.

[JulieYBM]

Nothing that is the answer. If she put in the work, then there is nothing stopping her.

Piccolo ask how did the gap between himself and Goku get so big, the answer should be so obvious. Goku training evolved that is why the gap became big. Goku gained new masters, new partner and new training method.

Videl is not a real person, she is a fictional character. You are missing the forest for the trees here. Toriyama's sexism and misogyny is the answer to the question I was asking. This isn't complicated!

[Kid Buu]

God, I wish Videl had awakened as a half-demon and gotten a new transformation and kicked the shit out of Spopovitch in that fight, just to expand on her character more and keep her in the story.

That would certainly suit her name being an anagram for Devil.

Yeah, it's a two-birds-one-stone situation: you get the gag of "Mr. Satan unwittingly marries a devil" and "Videl gets to have a journey of self-discovery" and "We get a new part of the world to discover." Okay, that's three birds, but whatever!

This way, you have an excuse to make Gohan into 'half-Earthling' rivals that can reasonably compete and clash. It strengthens Gohan's role as a protagonist by giving him a character—a peer!—to bounce off of and grow from interacting with. Gokuu and Vegeta can fail to stop Majin Buu, but Gohan and Videl succeed where they fail.

God forbid a woman have interior and arcs, though.

Wow....I actually really like this.

But at the same time, I do like the Buu Saga.

Maybe make Demon-Videl defeat Broli in a revamped Movie 10?

[JulieYBM]

That would certainly suit her name being an anagram for Devil.

Yeah, it's a two-birds-one-stone situation: you get the gag of "Mr. Satan unwittingly marries a devil" and "Videl gets to have a journey of self-discovery" and "We get a new part of the world to discover." Okay, that's three birds, but whatever!

This way, you have an excuse to make Gohan into 'half-Earthling' rivals that can reasonably compete and clash. It strengthens Gohan's role as a protagonist by giving him a character—a peer!—to bounce off of and grow from interacting with. Gokuu and Vegeta can fail to stop Majin Buu, but Gohan and Videl succeed where they fail.

God forbid a woman have interior and arcs, though.

Wow....I actually really like this.

But at the same time, I do like the Buu Saga.

Maybe make Demon-Videl defeat Broli in a revamped Movie 10?

Or even just shift the focus back to Gohan and Videl after the Majin Buu battle, but alas, we are where we are now lol

[Mr Baggins]

The only Saiyans to be born from Super Saiyan parents are Goten, Trunks, Bra and Pan. Before Goten and Trunks no Saiyan were born from Super Saiyan parents. Gohan was born when Goku didn't even know what a Saiyan was.

Although I'm in agreement with the thrust of what you're saying – and as we learn from Toriyama's infamous S Cells lore, that can indeed be understood as the in-universe thrust – there's obviously more to it than that.

The Super Saiyan bargain sale is classic subversive lampshading that shows all these flashy transformations aren't meant to be seen as special anymore. It's not hyping up the kids, it's downplaying what they've tapped into. Golden spiky mode is clearly diminishing returns for the heroes by now, with even stuff like Super Saiyan 3 having debilitating stamina drawbacks, and this subsequently paves the way for more effective techniques like fusion. That works for the plot because it isn't recycling a formula where everybody's problems are resolved by new genetic transformations alone, and it works for the themes because it leads to many of these characters having to work in unison. Yes, the writing is openly making a mockery of Super Saiyan at this juncture of the series; that is the point.

As has been said many times by many people in this thread, stories amount to more than plot. You don't need to foreshadow everything that happens, and sometimes a funny swerve can service the story you're telling in more ways than one.

[Jord]

Gohan is the prime example of sudden power boosts. From SSJ2 to Mystic to Beast.
You'd think the Earthlings training with Kaio would have given them kaioken or even more advanced techniques, considering they arrived there far stronger than Goku did.

[Kenji]

There was nothing preventing them from learning the Kaioken, really.
But, as you know, "Goku is the protagonist and he gets protagonist privileges!" which makes them training even more of a farce.

[Jord]

I believe the anime hinted at Tenshinhan learning Kaioken by giving hem that red aura during the Ginyu fight, but yeah, after Namek the humans got turned into cheerleaders with basically Tenshinhan's Kikoho against Cell being the only useful thing during the Android/Cell era.

[super michael]

There was nothing preventing them from learning the Kaioken, really.
But, as you know, "Goku is the protagonist and he gets protagonist privileges!" which makes them training even more of a farce.

Tenshinhan knew the existence of both Genki Dama and Kaioken and he stayed one whole year with Kaio. There was no excuse for him not to learn any of Kaioshin techniques.

Piccolo only stayed about one week with Kaio and he didn't know about the Genki Dama.

[Zephyr]

Toriyama clearly only wanted to juggle an upper limit of around 5 major characters each story arc, and it's possible that was the limit of what he could reasonably juggle. Either way, with that in mind the humans training at Kaio's were already out the door. As much sense as it would have made, and as much as I would have liked to see it, them learning Kaio-ken likely wouldn't have actually changed the trajectory of the story Toriyama was writing. A story that was about, among other things, recognizing the Super Saiyan as a wall to overcome, and seeing which Saiyan could overcome it in the best way.

I do think Piccolo knowing the Kaio-ken while fighting Freeza on Namek would have been fun, though. Have Piccolo keep that in his back pocket until Freeza's 3rd form overwhelms him. Then Piccolo surprises the reader (and maybe Kaio?) by utilizing it. He takes the Kaio-ken as far as his regenerating-body can go, which is enough to push Freeza to transform one last time.

[BernardoCairo]

I don’t really mind it, honestly. It only really happens twice in the Z portion of the story, and the second time feels more like a subversion.
During the Saiyajin Arc, Goku rushes back to save his friends and is framed as a straightforward hero, or an angered warrior. He completely overwhelms Nappa, driven by what was done to his friends, but his goal is still clear: protect Earth and stop Vegeta.
On Namek, though, it’s different. When Goku arrives, Toriyama writes him with a bit of cockiness. He plays around with the Ginyu Force, casually showing off his new power. Vegeta, who acts as our POV for much of that arc, keeps hyping him up too. And despite all that, Goku is still severely outclassed. He gets taken out without even facing Freeza. Compared to Freeza, he’s nothing at that point.
That’s why the “530,000” line hits so hard, right around the time Goku is showing the Kaioken to Ginyu. It immediately puts everything into perspective. Freeza is on a completely different level. Goku wasn’t arriving to save the day this time, at least not with the mindset he had when he landed on Namek. He was also prey.
Later, when he finally shows up to face Freeza, he isn’t there just to save his friends, but also to save himself. And even then, he is no match. No one reads Freeza’s power level, he tells Goku that himself, while also imposing challenges and playing around, just as Goku had been doing earlier, though in a far more sadistic way.
The characters themselves expect Goku to save them, but that’s usually not what happens. Everyone was counting on Goku to defeat Cell, but he gave up. They didn’t expect him to stay on Namek fighting Freeza just because he wanted to, either. They see Goku more as a savior than Goku sees himself.

[Majin Buu]

One issue I have the with the 'Gohan beats Super Buu' narrative is that it lacks any meaningful development. If there had been a story showing how his failure against Dabura made him realise the importance of training—even if he finds it boring—it could have felt earned and compelling. Instead, we just get 'he lost, received a free power-up, and then won,' which isn’t particularly exciting.

This. Fans who want this tend to act like having Gohan beat Buu alone would fix everything they think is wrong with the Buu arc (or at least Gohan's role in it, which tends to be among the chief complaints about the Buu arc from detractors, if not the biggest complaint) when I think doing that straight would just give us a less engaging retread of the Cell arc's climax.

Though I've never had a problem with Gohan failing in the Buu arc (Because at this point he's saved the day not once, but twice if you include the Saiyan arc- IMO the guy has nothing left to prove at this point), tacking on a moral about how he needs to keep up with his training, or really- A moral about this being a sign that he should retire from fighting entirely and focus on what he truly desires- scholarly stuff would make it feel more complete.

That being said: If the plot doesn't feel the need to dwell on Gohan's failure, maybe the failure isn't meant to be that important. That's probably another reason I never had an issue with the failure- the story never gave me a reason to care that he failed.