How do you feel about the trope where everyone waits for Goku?

[Jord]

Gohan getting a random power up by literally sitting on his ass for hours and then beating Buu would have been a horrible ending.

[Kenji]

Goku got a random power-up by sitting in a tube for hours, so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yeah, yeah, special Saiyan biology, doesn't make it any less unearned.

[BernardoCairo]

The difference is that we see Goku training hard before that. Both in the Saiyajin Arc and before arriving on Namek. Not to mention that the concept of Saiyajins getting stronger through the dangers of battle had already been established in that arc, with Vegeta and Gohan also benefiting from it. Furthermore, Goku was still far behind Freeza. It was only when he changed his mindset that he managed to reverse the situation.
Gohan, on the other hand, simply stood still and became stronger than Boo instantly, after 7 years of doing nothing. The Buu Arc was at its best when it focused on Goku, Vegeta, and their rivalry. That's why the beginning and end of the arc are so memorable. Gohan should never have been the protagonist of that story.

[ABED]

Goku got a random power-up by sitting in a tube for hours, so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yeah, yeah, special Saiyan biology, doesn't make it any less unearned.

He took a near death beating and nearly lost his own body. He earned it.

[Kenji]

Goku got a random power-up by sitting in a tube for hours, so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yeah, yeah, special Saiyan biology, doesn't make it any less unearned.

He took a near death beating and nearly lost his own body. He earned it.

YMMV on that.

Gohan should never have been the protagonist of that story.

"I don't know what to do with this character, so I'm just going to retread safe territory" is more of a skill issue on Toriyama's part than anything. If a character isn't interesting, then make them interesting.

[super michael]

Gohan getting a random power up by literally sitting on his ass for hours and then beating Buu would have been a horrible ending.

Unlocking potential is something that got introduced way back in Piccolo Daimao Saga. When potions and magic are involved, I don't see the problem there.
The ritual took 25 hours total to finish, that doesn't sound easy at all. Imagine sitting for that long without sleeping.

Goku got a random power-up by sitting in a tube for hours, so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yeah, yeah, special Saiyan biology, doesn't make it any less unearned.

Goku body got stolen and a foreign soul was inside his body and then got beaten up really bad while he wasn't inside his own body. No Saiyan has ever experienced what Goku experienced at all. If they knew about Dende healing or they had senzu beans, then it wouldn't have taken Goku hours to heal.

"I don't know what to do with this character, so I'm just going to retread safe territory" is more of a skill issue on Toriyama's part than anything. If a character isn't interesting, then make them interesting.

Gohan gave up training completely, which is hard to do in a fighting anime. Gohan should have balanced both training and studying.

[Kenji]

I don't think you guys understand that the point is that Toriyama is writing the comic.
"Gohan sucking is actually coherent with-"

No, Gohan sucks because Toriyama wanted him to suck, after deliberately informing the audience through Roshi that Gohan would take over, then giving up because he just didn't know what to do with the character.

It has as much thought put behind as Trunks being dropped entirely out of GT after the first half despite being a main character. I guess the fact he keeps repeating "I guess I've been slacking on my training, huh?" justifies it there just as much as it justifies it here. Or: The writers just suck at managing their cast, pick your poison.

[super michael]

I agree that Buu Saga Gohan character could have been written better, they know that their future counterpart died since they were not prepared for the cyborgs. So Gohan should have thought that another villain could come. Did they learn nothing when Freeza went to earth after the Namek Saga. A villain doesn't give warning.



However DBS they gain powerup from nothing, just by training with super weaklings or training in an ordinary gym which is bad writing. Then they completely ruined some characters, due to their bad writing. Goku, Buu and Chi Chi are the characters that they ruinined. Luckily Goten and Trunks got fixed in DBS Super Hero and their Super Hero story.

It has as much thought put behind as Trunks being dropped entirely out of GT after the first half despite being a main character. I guess the fact he keeps repeating "I guess I've been slacking on my training, huh?" justifies it there just as much as it justifies it here. Or: The writers just suck at managing their cast, pick your poison.

For some unknown reason Goten and Trunks never fused in GT, no matter the situation. They didn't fuse when they were possessed or normal. The only time that there was a good reason not to fuse was against Oozaru Bebi Vegeta, since the better option was to power Goku up to full power. However before and after that there was no reason not to fuse.
They can 1 shot Android 19 in their base form easy, but somehow can't go beyond SSJ1.

Only Goku and Pan battled against the Shadow Dragon, that is until Omega Shenron came and it became an all out battle against good and evil. Then everyone was battling against Omega Shenron.

[Kenji]

Only Goku and Pan battled against the Shadow Dragon, that is until Omega Shenron came and it became an all out battle against good and evil.

It makes sense, because Trunks kept saying throughout GT that he's been slacking on his training. (irony)

[super michael]

Only Goku and Pan battled against the Shadow Dragon, that is until Omega Shenron came and it became an all out battle against good and evil.

It makes sense, because Trunks kept saying throughout GT that he's been slacking on his training. (irony)

I remember Trunks saying he shouldn't have been slacking when he was fighting Lord Luud. But did he continue to slack once Goku killed Bebi? There was a time skip after Bebi defeat.

[Kid Buu]

The difference is that we see Goku training hard before that. Both in the Saiyajin Arc and before arriving on Namek. Not to mention that the concept of Saiyajins getting stronger through the dangers of battle had already been established in that arc, with Vegeta and Gohan also benefiting from it. Furthermore, Goku was still far behind Freeza. It was only when he changed his mindset that he managed to reverse the situation.
Gohan, on the other hand, simply stood still and became stronger than Boo instantly, after 7 years of doing nothing. The Buu Arc was at its best when it focused on Goku, Vegeta, and their rivalry. That's why the beginning and end of the arc are so memorable. Gohan should never have been the protagonist of that story.

I enjoyed the Great Saiyaman arc, but overall I agree with your point. Other characters have received sudden power‑ups, but Gohan is the only one whose strength actually declined because he stopped training, leaving him unable to defeat a villain whose power was said to be comparable to the last enemy he faced. Seeing him get a free power‑up after that negligence and then go on to beat Buu would have felt underwhelming to me.

[Kenji]

Nobody's saying Gohan had to win against Boo.

Boo could still absorb Gotenks, beat the shit out of Gohan, absorb Goku and Piccolo for good measure, make the situation even more hopeless, have Gohan lament that's his own fault for slacking on his training or whatever, force him to get creative and find another solution to the problem than a simple "get strong" button. In fact, that's what happened at Cell, Cell got even stronger because Gohan fucked up, it didn't just end after Gohan got the magic "get strong" transformation.

Anything other than dropping Gohan's arc entirely would've worked better.

[super michael]

Nobody's saying Gohan had to win against Boo.

Boo could still absorb Gotenks, beat the shit out of Gohan, absorb Goku and Piccolo for good measure, make the situation even more hopeless, have Gohan lament that's his own fault for slacking on his training or whatever, force him to get creative and find another solution to the problem than a simple "get strong" button. In fact, that's what happened at Cell, Cell got even stronger because Gohan fucked up, it didn't just end after Gohan got the magic "get strong" transformation.

Anything other than dropping Gohan's arc entirely would've worked better.

Seeing that Gohan was studying, maybe Gohan could remember something from his studying that he could apply to his fight against Majin Buu. Maybe a techique from a text book that he attempts to use it.

[BernardoCairo]

"I don't know what to do with this character, so I'm just going to retread safe territory" is more of a skill issue on Toriyama's part than anything. If a character isn't interesting, then make them interesting.

Here’s the thing, though: that was his intention. He didn’t want Gohan to be the protagonist at that point. He clearly considered the idea and even wrote strong material for Gohan during the first three arcs of Z, but in the end it was always Goku’s story. I respect that he chose to follow his own vision instead of forcing Gohan into the lead role just because he was popular at the time.
My issue with the Boo arc, and why I consider it the weakest in the original manga, isn’t the tone or anything like that. I just think the story would have benefited from more focus on Goku and Vegeta, and less of that unfocused middle section with the kids. Don’t get me wrong, I actually love the Great Saiyaman material and even the small glimpse we get of the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai. Those moments make the world feel more alive and give us a closer look at the characters’ daily lives, which is something the earlier arcs lacked.
That said, once Goku and Vegeta step back into the spotlight, the story should have stayed with them. They had unfinished business, both individually (in the case of Vegeta) and with each other. Their confrontation, followed by the resolution that comes from it, with Goku ultimately relying on the help of everyone he has influenced or changed on Earth, including Vegeta himself, feels like the perfect conclusion. Personally, I prefer that direction over having Gohan return as the main hero again. And that’s not because Gohan is uninteresting, quite the opposite.

[Kenji]

I actually agree with all of that, by the way.

If Toriyama wanted to put Goku and Vegeta back into focus, then he should've put Goku and Vegeta back into focus as soon as he realized he didn't know what to do with Gohan, Videl and co. Of course, we don't know when he realized that, my guess is that it was when Vegeta came back from Hell "just in case."

You want Gohan to be just a scholar? Then write him to be just a scholar. Have him defeat Cell and retire, the message was already set. "Gohan never wanted to be a fighter." Don't write him up to want to be a superhero, don't write an entire story surrounding how he's the next great savior of humanity. The first time Majin Boo is released and Gohan is thought to be dead? Leave him dead and put the focus back on Goku and Vegeta, and have Gohan lament in the afterlife how he never wanted to be a fighter anyway.

But no, you need to have an entire story around Gohan needing to learn a lesson about not neglecting his training that never goes anywhere, or a story about passing the torch to the new generation that also never goes anywhere. Because for all the Boo Saga has shown us, is that Gohan did want to be a fighter. Him failing spectacularly and resigning to be a scholar goes against what this arc and the previous arc had built up. If the message was "he needed to learn to balance between fighting and studying," guess what? The Cell arc had already done that, and executed it a million times better than this.

[jjgp1112]

"I don't know what to do with this character, so I'm just going to retread safe territory" is more of a skill issue on Toriyama's part than anything. If a character isn't interesting, then make them interesting.

Here’s the thing, though: that was his intention. He didn’t want Gohan to be the protagonist at that point. He clearly considered the idea and even wrote strong material for Gohan during the first three arcs of Z, but in the end it was always Goku’s story. I respect that he chose to follow his own vision instead of forcing Gohan into the lead role just because he was popular at the time.
My issue with the Boo arc, and why I consider it the weakest in the original manga, isn’t the tone or anything like that. I just think the story would have benefited from more focus on Goku and Vegeta, and less of that unfocused middle section with the kids. Don’t get me wrong, I actually love the Great Saiyaman material and even the small glimpse we get of the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai. Those moments make the world feel more alive and give us a closer look at the characters’ daily lives, which is something the earlier arcs lacked.
That said, once Goku and Vegeta step back into the spotlight, the story should have stayed with them. They had unfinished business, both individually (in the case of Vegeta) and with each other. Their confrontation, followed by the resolution that comes from it, with Goku ultimately relying on the help of everyone he has influenced or changed on Earth, including Vegeta himself, feels like the perfect conclusion. Personally, I prefer that direction over having Gohan return as the main hero again. And that’s not because Gohan is uninteresting, quite the opposite.

Yeah that's the thing - in a vaccuum, the Kid Buu portion is by far the best part of the arc aside from the parts earler that also involved Goku and Vegeta, my issue was just how it threw away the prior setups. But sometimes a complete course correction is necessary to land that sucker and you deal with the side effects later lol

[Jord]

I actually agree with all of that, by the way.

If Toriyama wanted to put Goku and Vegeta back into focus, then he should've put Goku and Vegeta back into focus as soon as he realized he didn't know what to do with Gohan, Videl and co. Of course, we don't know when he realized that, my guess is that it was when Vegeta came back from Hell "just in case."

You want Gohan to be just a scholar? Then write him to be just a scholar. Have him defeat Cell and retire, the message was already set. "Gohan never wanted to be a fighter." Don't write him up to want to be a superhero, don't write an entire story surrounding how he's the next great savior of humanity. The first time Majin Boo is released and Gohan is thought to be dead? Leave him dead and put the focus back on Goku and Vegeta, and have Gohan lament in the afterlife how he never wanted to be a fighter anyway.

But no, you need to have an entire story around Gohan needing to learn a lesson about not neglecting his training that never goes anywhere, or a story about passing the torch to the new generation that also never goes anywhere. Because for all the Boo Saga has shown us, is that Gohan did want to be a fighter. Him failing spectacularly and resigning to be a scholar goes against what this arc and the previous arc had built up. If the message was "he needed to learn to balance between fighting and studying," guess what? The Cell arc had already done that, and executed it a million times better than this.

I agree. That's the problem with the writing of Gohan. If he doesn't want to be a fighter, that's fine. That is one of the things I like about GT Gohan. He settled down, no longer wanting to be a fighter and only puts his GI back on when there is no other choice. In Z and Super we get Gohan going back and forth on taking his training seriously, which feels like a trope.

I really wonder if Toriyama had some sort of ending already in mind when starting the Buu saga and if he already decided for Goku to end it.

[Mr Baggins]

That said, once Goku and Vegeta step back into the spotlight, the story should have stayed with them.

Can't say I would have enjoyed that as much, myself.

The beauty of the Buu arc is that it's a smorgasbord of ideas, characters, storylines, and conflicts; much of which actually does pan out to a pretty cohesive conclusion, and some of which just leads to increasingly more ridiculous twists and curveballs. It's hilariously fitting that Majin Buu, a subversion of the villains we've come to expect and also a force of chaos himself, is the antagonist of a story with subversions and chaos at its core. It purposely relies on its own unpredictability for thrills, humor, and even character development. Just about everyone participates in some way, then fails spectacularly in some way, then Toriyama brings it all back to everyone unifying in (literal) spirit to take out that one stubborn foe that brought them all to the brink.

That's not to say I don't think more structured plots have their place, but I'm not sure that place was here. I think removing these elements would make the Buu arc less Buu-y and ultimately less memorable as Dragon Ball's final story.

Now, was it meticulously planned from the start? Probably not, but it ends up tying together by the skin of Toriyama's teeth, and that's about the most Toriyama way to bookend the series. Man's a god of improvisation.

Also, Caretaker Piccolo is great.

[super michael]

Master Roshi retired in the 23rd Martial Art Tournament and Kuririn retired after Cell defeat, I don't know why they returned to fight. Plus they got huge power up from doing nothing but ordinary training. No magic or something extraordinary but plain ordinary training.

Master Roshi just watch TV all day.


DBS is still the only anime that forbids fighters from training and fighting for no good reason