How do you feel about the trope where everyone waits for Goku?

[super michael]

“Saiyans get stronger after they get beaten up” is nothing more than a narrative shortcut. Your mileage may vary on whether it qualifies as an “earned” power up, but I don’t consider it any different from Goku drinking some convenient magic water to get stronger. Personally, I think it also further goes against the idea that anyone can get strong if they work hard enough, because the Earthlings obviously don’t have that sort of biological advantage.

There is some lore behind the water, before Goku anyone that drunk the water they all died. Goku is the only one to drink it and survive. The odds of Goku surviving in universe was really low or almost impossible. Goku was in pain for a long time.

In DBS there is no effort to how a character gets stronger, then can beat weakling or just train in an ordinary gym and they gain huge power surpassing that of SSJ3 Gotenks and even Majin Buu. No magic at all or extraordinary training.


I believe GT is better than DBS, even if GT has its own flaws.

Edit Toyotaro tried to explain why the Saiyans doesn't gain Zenkai in Goku Black chapter, which is good in my opinion. Basically his reason is because the Saiyans has reached their limit.

[Kenji]

I came out and gave you several reasons why the specific example you used is weak, so I wouldn’t say I’m "wrapping my head around trying to justify it now"...

Your "several arguments" boiled down to "Well, Goku trained hard before and was still leagues behind Freeza."
Which I thought was weak.

In the same vein, I could argue Post-Powered-Up Gohan trained hard with the Z-Sword before and was still leagues behind Post-Fused Boo and Vegetto. Or that Post-Powered-Up Goku was still leagues above Post-Powered-Up Vegeta, Post-Fused Piccolo and Post-Transformation-3 Freeza.

The exact numbers don't matter.
At the end of the day, both of these characters got magnitudes stronger by doing almost nothing narratively satisfying.

Once again, YMMV, what exactly is narratively satisfying is something you have to decide for yourself.
In my case, both instances were boring and unearned as fuck.
But at least, if Gohan had won, it wouldn't have thrown away the story being told before.

[ABED]

I mean, the magical power up nonsense is in fact boring and kind of shows that when you restrict what you allow yourself to be as a writer and then also just don't plan out the story, you wind up needing to pull "Uh, they get stronger after a near death beating! Until they just stop doing that For Reasons" out of your ass. It's boring.

Planning out stories isn't important. It's just one method. it's not like engineering with objective answers.

Having some semblance of what you're going to do is important. I'm not even saying that the granular details need to be followed, but if you're just stumbling around in the dark you're not going to be making anything coherent or meaningful, especially when you're locking yourself into a corner fifteen comic pages at a time.

I don't agree at all. I've read and seen plenty of writers say they don't plan out. They go where the story takes them. Plans for storytelling aren't objective because there are no right or wrong answers. Even if you plan it out, it's still something vague. You can always plan and imagine the best version of it then later realize the limitations or lose interest in it.

[super michael]

I think we are forgetting something, Goku and Gohan doesn't have human physiology, since they have alien DNA in them. As for the humans they are not regular humans anymore, they are super human that have gone beyond the normal limit of humans. They can do things that no normal human can do. Even Videl is a super human by being able to fly, by being able to control her ki.
Some aliens can live 100s and even 1000s years without any problem..

In Invincible there are aliens that only lives up to 1 year old. But a hybrid of that alien can live way longer.

[JulieYBM]

Planning out stories isn't important. It's just one method. it's not like engineering with objective answers.

Having some semblance of what you're going to do is important. I'm not even saying that the granular details need to be followed, but if you're just stumbling around in the dark you're not going to be making anything coherent or meaningful, especially when you're locking yourself into a corner fifteen comic pages at a time.

I don't agree at all. I've read and seen plenty of writers say they don't plan out. They go where the story takes them. Plans for storytelling aren't objective because there are no right or wrong answers. Even if you plan it out, it's still something vague. You can always plan and imagine the best version of it then later realize the limitations or lose interest in it.

I'm not talking about writing a sixty thousand word outline (something I've actually done and then never actually written the story proper lol), but rather just a simple, "This is what the story is about and this is vaguely where the characters are going to end up." All of the character arcs falling apart until Majin Buu arc ends with "Gokuu uses the Genki-dama to defeat Majin Buu, Vegeta gets over his internalized biphobia" after neither of the characters were established until part way through the arc reads as a really shitty failure to resolve things that are put into place beyond really anticlimactic resolutions that occur because...Toriyama apparently can't figure out how to write characters that aren't terribly difficult to write?

I'm not saying plans don't change—I literally know this from experience as a writer!—but holy shit, the Majin Buu arc is not how you gracefully land a plane.

[super michael]

Goku might have beaten Kid Buu with his Genki Dama, but the victory wasn't his alone. It took the universe and the Dragon Balls to win that battle. If the Dragon Balls didn't revive the people on earth, restore Goku energy and the people from the universe donate their ki, then Goku would have lost 100%.

Goku didn't know a living body would lose more ki than a dead body by using SSJ3, before Kid Buu he never got the chance to fight with that form in a living body. He only had experience using it in otherworld in a dead body and on earth in a dead body.

[ABED]

Having some semblance of what you're going to do is important. I'm not even saying that the granular details need to be followed, but if you're just stumbling around in the dark you're not going to be making anything coherent or meaningful, especially when you're locking yourself into a corner fifteen comic pages at a time.

I don't agree at all. I've read and seen plenty of writers say they don't plan out. They go where the story takes them. Plans for storytelling aren't objective because there are no right or wrong answers. Even if you plan it out, it's still something vague. You can always plan and imagine the best version of it then later realize the limitations or lose interest in it.

I'm not talking about writing a sixty thousand word outline (something I've actually done and then never actually written the story proper lol), but rather just a simple, "This is what the story is about and this is vaguely where the characters are going to end up." All of the character arcs falling apart until Majin Buu arc ends with "Gokuu uses the Genki-dama to defeat Majin Buu, Vegeta gets over his internalized biphobia" after neither of the characters were established until part way through the arc reads as a really shitty failure to resolve things that are put into place beyond really anticlimactic resolutions that occur because...Toriyama apparently can't figure out how to write characters that aren't terribly difficult to write?

I'm not saying plans don't change—I literally know this from experience as a writer!—but holy shit, the Majin Buu arc is not how you gracefully land a plane.

my point still applies. Toriyama could've come up with a small outline before he ever began the arc and still ended up realizing that it wasn't work like he had hoped. It often happens to any storyteller. The problem is that unlike a novelist who has subsequent drafts to refine a story that changes and go back to tighten things up, Toriyama is writing a serialized comic. He can't go back and change Act 1 after he changes the intended ending of Act 3. THat said, he picked the lesser of two evils when he decided to abandon his ideas that he clearly set up when he realized they weren't working as hoped. He's not a bad writer. He chose to keep the story alive instead of checking boxes on a list.

Sucks that it lead to him going back to the trope that's the topic of this thread.

[Kid Buu]

Goku might have beaten Kid Buu with his Genki Dama, but the victory wasn't his alone. It took the universe and the Dragon Balls to win that battle. If the Dragon Balls didn't revive the people on earth, restore Goku energy and the people from the universe donate their ki, then Goku would have lost 100%.

Goku didn't know a living body would lose more ki than a dead body by using SSJ3, before Kid Buu he never got the chance to fight with that form in a living body. He only had experience using it in otherworld in a dead body and on earth in a dead body.

Goku pretty much lost that fight via runnning out of SS3 energy. By the time he threw the Genki Dama, Fat Buu had taken over the fight.

[Mr Baggins]

^ To add, the seeds were also sown through A) the arc cycling through a large cast of characters, and B) Earth having already exerted the greatest influence on Buu from guys like Mr. Satan and Bee. I don't find it even a little surprising that Toriyama saw the Genkidama as a fitting climax.

Conversely, the next generation thread gets only like 30 chapters of focus in the middle of a nearly 100 chapter arc (with a fuckload of indications that plan wouldn't go off without a hitch) though you could certainly argue the kids are still part of its message.

That is to say, there was always a pretty distinct sense the victory wouldn't belong to a single person.

Personally, I think it also further goes against the idea that anyone can get strong if they work hard enough, because the Earthlings obviously don’t have that sort of biological advantage.

I actually don't think Goku's biology makes any difference subtextually. It's all still inherently motivational. The Earthling guys consistently bitch and moan about getting left in the dust almost for as long as they're around. Goku doesn't whine, and would never have whined even if the roles were reversed. Goku just wants to better himself.

Realistically, these dudes never stood a chance. You could remove Saiyan genetics from the story entirely and get the same end result, which is indeed what we've been seeing before that idea got introduced, but where Saiyan genetics came into play is they were a tool for exploring other themes and dynamics.

[super michael]

^ To add, the seeds were also sown through A) the arc cycling through a large cast of characters, and B) Earth having already exerted the greatest influence on Buu from guys like Mr. Satan and Bee. I don't find it even a little surprising that Toriyama saw the Genkidama as a fitting climax.

Conversely, the next generation thread gets only like 30 chapters of focus in the middle of a nearly 100 chapter arc (with a fuckload of indications that plan wouldn't go off without a hitch) though you could certainly argue the kids are still part of its message.

That is to say, there was always a pretty distinct sense the victory wouldn't belong to a single person.

Personally, I think it also further goes against the idea that anyone can get strong if they work hard enough, because the Earthlings obviously don’t have that sort of biological advantage.

I actually don't think Goku's biology makes any difference subtextually. It's all still inherently motivational. The Earthling guys consistently bitch and moan about getting left in the dust almost for as long as they're around. Goku doesn't whine, and would never have whined even if the roles were reversed. Goku just wants to better himself.

Realistically, these dudes never stood a chance. You could remove Saiyan genetics from the story entirely and get the same end result, which is indeed what we've been seeing before that idea got introduced, but where Saiyan genetics came into play is they were a tool for exploring other themes and dynamics.

In DBS manga Piccolo question how the gap between himself and Goku got so big, when the answer should be obvious. Goku is always trying to improve himself, he is willing to evolve his training method and train with new masters and partner. Piccolo trained with Goku before the Cyborgs appeared and he got great result, so he shouldn't be surprised what a strong training partner can do. The most Piccolo does is train alone or with Gohan.

Although Piccolo still trains way better than the humans, that only trains with those way weaker than themselves or alone. They don't do anything special at all.

[BernardoCairo]

Your "several arguments" boiled down to "Well, Goku trained hard before and was still leagues behind Freeza."
Which I thought was weak.

In the same vein, I could argue Post-Powered-Up Gohan trained hard with the Z-Sword before and was still leagues behind Post-Fused Boo and Vegetto. Or that Post-Powered-Up Goku was still leagues above Post-Powered-Up Vegeta, Post-Fused Piccolo and Post-Transformation-3 Freeza.

The exact numbers don't matter.
At the end of the day, both of these characters got magnitudes stronger by doing almost nothing narratively satisfying.

Once again, YMMV, what exactly is narratively satisfying is something you have to decide for yourself.
In my case, both instances were boring and unearned as fuck.
But at least, if Gohan had won, it wouldn't have thrown away the story being told before.

I get your point, but I think there’s a false equivalence here.
My argument isn’t about numbers, it’s about what actually happens in the story. Goku’s power level could be 3,000,000, it doesn’t change the fact that he was being completely dominated by Freeza. Nothing he tried worked. There’s even that iconic moment where Tenshinhan assumes Goku hasn’t used Kaioken x10 yet, only for us to realize that he’s been using it the whole time. That says everything.
The point is that staying in the healing tank didn’t really solve anything. His numbers went up, but just like Vegeta spamming Zenkai boosts or Piccolo fusing with Nail, raw increases weren’t enough. In fact, Vegeta is a perfect example of why that approach fails. He relied too much on Zenkai, got completely crushed by Freeza, and hit his lowest point mentally. That experience is what later pushes him to understand the value of actual training during the Android saga and beyond.
Goku only starts to close the gap when something changes internally. During the fight, he shifts his mindset. He accepts his Saiyajin heritage in a way he hadn’t before, lets go of his usual martial artist restraint, and even chooses to stay on Namek out of anger and a desire for revenge. And yet, at the end, he still returns to who he truly is by sparing Freeza. That entire process is what gives the transformation its weight.
Now compare that to Gohan. He pulls a sword, goes through a ritual, and unlocks a new form without any real character shift to support it. I understand the scene was meant to be a bit tongue-in-cheek, and I don’t have an issue with it on that level, but putting it on the same level as Super Saiyajin just doesn’t hold up.
For Ultimate Gohan to have the same impact, or for the Majin Boo fight to reach the same level as the Freeza fight, the whole arc would need to be built differently from the ground up. Given what was actually written, it doesn’t come close.

[Kenji]

I get your point, but I think there’s a false equivalence here.
My argument isn’t about numbers, it’s about what actually happens in the story. Goku’s power level could be 3,000,000, it doesn’t change the fact that he was being completely dominated by Freeza. Nothing he tried worked. There’s even that iconic moment where Tenshinhan assumes Goku hasn’t used Kaioken x10 yet, only for us to realize that he’s been using it the whole time. That says everything.
The point is that staying in the healing tank didn’t really solve anything. His numbers went up, but just like Vegeta spamming Zenkai boosts or Piccolo fusing with Nail, raw increases weren’t enough. In fact, Vegeta is a perfect example of why that approach fails. He relied too much on Zenkai, got completely crushed by Freeza, and hit his lowest point mentally. That experience is what later pushes him to understand the value of actual training during the Android saga and beyond.
Goku only starts to close the gap when something changes internally. During the fight, he shifts his mindset. He accepts his Saiyajin heritage in a way he hadn’t before, lets go of his usual martial artist restraint, and even chooses to stay on Namek out of anger and a desire for revenge. And yet, at the end, he still returns to who he truly is by sparing Freeza. That entire process is what gives the transformation its weight.
Now compare that to Gohan. He pulls a sword, goes through a ritual, and unlocks a new form without any real character shift to support it. I understand the scene was meant to be a bit tongue-in-cheek, and I don’t have an issue with it on that level, but putting it on the same level as Super Saiyajin just doesn’t hold up.
For Ultimate Gohan to have the same impact, or for the Majin Boo fight to reach the same level as the Freeza fight, the whole arc would need to be built differently from the ground up. Given what was actually written, it doesn’t come close.

There is a lot of points to address here.

I can see where you're going, but at no point in the entire story did I buy the idea that "training hard" actually paid off. For one, what ultimately solved the problem was still Goku getting stronger through magical means, namely getting angry, which I would argue isn't narratively satisfying either.

There is definitely a story to be told about a pacifist giving into instinctual rage and bloodlust, but it's one that Toriyama didn't bother exploring all that much beyond Goku deciding to stay in Namek. If he started killing innocents, hurt his loved ones, shocked his friends, made them all scared of him, or triggered a character arc in Goku trying to overcome the "poison" that Toriyama put in him, that would be one thing, but Goku's "mindset shift" really didn't change all that much about him as a character.

Vegeta dedicating himself to training didn't work either. He explicitly says in the manga that he put himself through the most ruthless training methods possible in a span of 3 years and it just wasn't working, what actually triggered the transformation in him was ultimately rageful self-loathing, which again, undermines the whole message that training hard actually pays off and getting angry via magic is a more effective strategy.

Back to the Gohan convo: Gohan didn't just "pull a sword", he trained to be able to pull that sword, and then trained to be able to wield it effectively and defeat Majin Boo, which then released an old God that did a ritual to make him stronger, which would definitely help with the whole "defeating Majin Boo" thing. This really isn't all that different than Goku training off-screen with Kaio by chasing a monkey and then showing up stronger than ever to fight Vegeta. Once again, Dragon Ball is no stranger to characters getting stronger through gags.

On a side note, the Boo arc also introduces the "magical no-training required" method for Goku and Vegeta to get stronger, namely the Potara fusion. Granted, they decided to stupidly destroy it because "Saiyans don't like to win that way", but I digress.

Now that I mention the Saiyan arc, the Boo arc could've learned quite a few lessons from that. So, Gohan got stronger via a magical sitting-down power up ritual, so what? You can still write him getting his ass kicked after Boo pulls an Oozaru transformation, or absorbs Vegetto, or Gotenks, and force him to get creative to solve the problem.

Heck, have Gohan do the Potara stuff with Videl instead, pull some last-minute bullshit that Videl actually has great potential or some shit, go through with the entire initial plan to save Goten and Trunks, only as Gohan and Videl instead of Goku and Vegeta. Have him remember that Piccolo also trained with Kaio and should logically know how to do the Genki-Dama, while he, Videl, Goten and Trunks fend off Kid Boo. That would show that not only is he a strong fighter, but also a good leader.

The point here isn't even that characters got stronger through bullshit, it's that Gohan, Videl, and co. got robbed of their story.

[Yellow Flower King]

I get your point, but I think there’s a false equivalence here.
My argument isn’t about numbers, it’s about what actually happens in the story. Goku’s power level could be 3,000,000, it doesn’t change the fact that he was being completely dominated by Freeza. Nothing he tried worked. There’s even that iconic moment where Tenshinhan assumes Goku hasn’t used Kaioken x10 yet, only for us to realize that he’s been using it the whole time. That says everything.
The point is that staying in the healing tank didn’t really solve anything. His numbers went up, but just like Vegeta spamming Zenkai boosts or Piccolo fusing with Nail, raw increases weren’t enough. In fact, Vegeta is a perfect example of why that approach fails. He relied too much on Zenkai, got completely crushed by Freeza, and hit his lowest point mentally. That experience is what later pushes him to understand the value of actual training during the Android saga and beyond.
Goku only starts to close the gap when something changes internally. During the fight, he shifts his mindset. He accepts his Saiyajin heritage in a way he hadn’t before, lets go of his usual martial artist restraint, and even chooses to stay on Namek out of anger and a desire for revenge. And yet, at the end, he still returns to who he truly is by sparing Freeza. That entire process is what gives the transformation its weight.
Now compare that to Gohan. He pulls a sword, goes through a ritual, and unlocks a new form without any real character shift to support it. I understand the scene was meant to be a bit tongue-in-cheek, and I don’t have an issue with it on that level, but putting it on the same level as Super Saiyajin just doesn’t hold up.
For Ultimate Gohan to have the same impact, or for the Majin Boo fight to reach the same level as the Freeza fight, the whole arc would need to be built differently from the ground up. Given what was actually written, it doesn’t come close.

There is a lot of points to address here.

I can see where you're going, but at no point in the entire story did I buy the idea that "training hard" actually paid off. For one, what ultimately solved the problem was still Goku getting stronger through magical means, namely getting angry, which I would argue isn't narratively satisfying either.

There is definitely a story to be told about a pacifist giving into instinctual rage and bloodlust, but it's one that Toriyama didn't bother exploring all that much beyond Goku deciding to stay in Namek. If he started killing innocents, hurt his loved ones, shocked his friends, made them all scared of him, or triggered a character arc in Goku trying to overcome the "poison" that Toriyama put in him, that would be one thing, but Goku's "mindset shift" really didn't change all that much about him as a character.

Vegeta dedicating himself to training didn't work either. He explicitly says in the manga that he put himself through the most ruthless training methods possible in a span of 3 years and it just wasn't working, what actually triggered the transformation in him was ultimately rageful self-loathing, which again, undermines the whole message that training hard actually pays off and getting angry via magic is a more effective strategy.

Back to the Gohan convo: Gohan didn't just "pull a sword", he trained to be able to pull that sword, and then trained to be able to wield it effectively and defeat Majin Boo, which then released an old God that did a ritual to make him stronger, which would definitely help with the whole "defeating Majin Boo" thing. This really isn't all that different than Goku training off-screen with Kaio by chasing a monkey and then showing up stronger than ever to fight Vegeta. Once again, Dragon Ball is no stranger to characters getting stronger through gags.

On a side note, the Boo arc also introduces the "magical no-training required" method for Goku and Vegeta to get stronger, namely the Potara fusion. Granted, they decided to stupidly destroy it because "Saiyans don't like to win that way", but I digress.

Now that I mention the Saiyan arc, the Boo arc could've learned quite a few lessons from that. So, Gohan got stronger via a magical sitting-down power up ritual, so what? You can still write him getting his ass kicked after Boo pulls an Oozaru transformation, or absorbs Vegetto, or Gotenks, and force him to get creative to solve the problem.

Heck, have Gohan do the Potara stuff with Videl instead, pull some last-minute bullshit that Videl actually has great potential or some shit, go through with the entire initial plan to save Goten and Trunks, only as Gohan and Videal instead of Goku and Vegeta. Have him remember that Piccolo also trained with Kaio and should logically know how to do the Genki-Dama, while he, Videl, Goten and Trunks fend off Kid Boo. That would show that not only is he a strong fighter, but also a good leader.

The point here isn't even that characters got stronger through bullshit, it's that Gohan, Videl, and co. got robbed of their story.

At this point I wonder what exactly you like about the franchise and what exactly is well written about it in your opinion. I get your criticisms but you are taking it to the point I doubt you like anything about Dragon Ball. Because bullshit power ups is something the franchise has worn on its sleeve from day one.

[Kenji]

At this point I wonder what exactly you like about the franchise and what exactly is well written about it in your opinion. I get your criticisms but you are taking it to the point I doubt you like anything about Dragon Ball. Because bullshit power ups is something the franchise has worn on its sleeve from day one.

Something something Dragon Ball bad because Yamcha and Tenshinhan are treated unfairly.
Strawmen are fun

Seriously, what's the point of a debate if you can't criticize the thing that is open to debate?
To answer your question, take it as you will:

Spoiler:

S- Peak Dragon Ball
A- I have nitpicks, but they're largely very enjoyable
B- Flawed, but I can appreciate them
C- Meh, they exist, no strong feelings
D- Good ideas executed like shit
F- I dread returning to these

[Yellow Flower King]

At this point I wonder what exactly you like about the franchise and what exactly is well written about it in your opinion. I get your criticisms but you are taking it to the point I doubt you like anything about Dragon Ball. Because bullshit power ups is something the franchise has worn on its sleeve from day one.

Something something Dragon Ball bad because Yamcha and Tenshinhan are treated unfairly.
Strawmen are fun

Seriously, what's the point of a debate if you can't criticize the thing that is open to debate?
To answer your question, take it as you will:

Spoiler:

S- Peak Dragon Ball
A- I have nitpicks, but they're largely very enjoyable
B- Flawed, but I can appreciate them
C- Meh, they exist, no strong feelings
D- Good ideas executed like shit
F- I dread returning to these

I really wasnt trying to strawman, but you did very well in reminding me I should make actual arguments and not just go for the easy road.

[BernardoCairo]

I can see where you're going, but at no point in the entire story did I buy the idea that "training hard" actually paid off. For one, what ultimately solved the problem was still Goku getting stronger through magical means, namely getting angry, which I would argue isn't narratively satisfying either.

There is definitely a story to be told about a pacifist giving into instinctual rage and bloodlust, but it's one that Toriyama didn't bother exploring all that much beyond Goku deciding to stay in Namek. If he started killing innocents, hurt his loved ones, shocked his friends, made them all scared of him, or triggered a character arc in Goku trying to overcome the "poison" that Toriyama put in him, that would be one thing, but Goku's "mindset shift" really didn't change all that much about him as a character.

Vegeta dedicating himself to training didn't work either. He explicitly says in the manga that he put himself through the most ruthless training methods possible in a span of 3 years and it just wasn't working, what actually triggered the transformation in him was ultimately rageful self-loathing, which again, undermines the whole message that training hard actually pays off and getting angry via magic is a more effective strategy.

Nah. If you go through the fight carefully, there’s a clear shift in Goku’s behavior.
At the start, both he and Freeza are testing each other. It almost feels like a game. Piccolo even points that out. Goku is relaxed, enjoying the fight, relying on technique and strategy, like exploiting Freeza’s inability to sense ki or applying what he learned with Kaio-sama. Freeza is also taking it lightly, to the point of offering Goku a place in his army. That’s basically his version of ending things on good terms, but Goku keeps pushing.
As the fight progresses, that tone disappears. Goku stops enjoying himself and starts getting desperate. He goes through everything he has, including his trump cards, and nothing works. There’s a moment where he’s clearly shaken.
After the Super Saiyajin transformation, the change isn’t just visual, it shows in how he acts. He threatens Gohan, humiliates Freeza, and starts toying with him. Up to that point, Goku had never done that on purpose. He taunts him, leans into the idea of being the Super Saiyajin, and chooses to stay on Namek just to finish the fight, even with the planet about to explode. Even his fighting style changes. He stops fighting like a martial artist and starts hitting Freeza in a more direct, almost crude way. That shift is the transformation.
Goku doesn’t need to become evil for it to work. What changes is his mindset. For that moment, he abandons the approach he had followed since training with Muten Roshi. That idea had been building for a while, especially through Vegeta, who kept insisting Goku would never become a Super Saiyajin with that attitude. Goku had to move closer to that mindset, something he had resisted since learning about his Saiyajin origins.
That’s also why he spares Freeza in the end. It’s not about mercy in the usual sense. Leaving him alive after everything hurts more than killing him. By that point, the fight isn’t about competition anymore, it’s about breaking him.
So it’s not just anger or “evil” that triggers Super Saiyajin. It’s that shift in mentality, stepping away from the path he had followed up to that moment. His body was ready from the training, but he wasn't.
As for Vegeta, he does start training after Freeza, but it's only a start. He focuses only on pushing his body, mostly alone, almost like self-punishment. The series makes it clear that this approach isn’t effective. His pride keeps him from changing, and it leads to more setbacks, while Goku and Gohan surpass him by training smarter and together. It’s only later, when Vegeta adjusts both his mindset and his methods, that he finally catches up and stands on equal ground with Goku.

[Kenji]

Nah. If you go through the fight carefully, there’s a clear shift in Goku’s behavior.

Obviously.
However, my point is that not enough is actually done with it other than making Goku stronger for me personally to have found it enjoyable.

Goku doesn’t need to become evil for it to work. What changes is his mindset. For that moment, he abandons the approach he had followed since training with Muten Roshi. That idea had been building for a while, especially through Vegeta, who kept insisting Goku would never become a Super Saiyajin with that attitude. Goku had to move closer to that mindset, something he had resisted since learning about his Saiyajin origins.

It's worth noting here that the scenes with Goku resisting Saiyan heritage and Vegeta punishing himself are all anime-only.
In fact, Goku explicitly says in the manga he's taking Vegeta's Saiyan Pride for himself before fighting Freeza.
The manga really, really doesn't make "Saiyan Pride" a deal like the anime does with its infamous scenes of Vegeta butt-naked.

[super michael]

Back to the Gohan convo: Gohan didn't just "pull a sword", he trained to be able to pull that sword, and then trained to be able to wield it effectively and defeat Majin Boo, which then released an old God that did a ritual to make him stronger, which would definitely help with the whole "defeating Majin Boo" thing. This really isn't all that different than Goku training off-screen with Kaio by chasing a monkey and then showing up stronger than ever to fight Vegeta. Once again, Dragon Ball is no stranger to characters getting stronger through gags.

Your description of Gohan training in the Buu Saga is correct, even Goku found it hard to lift the Z sword. However it doesn't change that Gohan lost power from not training for seven years. Not even training with Goten for one month helped Gohan regain the power that he lost.
As for Goku on Kaio planet, you are forgetting that Goku struggled to move due to the planet gravity. After he completed catching Bubbles, he trained with Kaio and learned his techniques. We do see Kaio attack Goku in their training.

Heck, have Gohan do the Potara stuff with Videl instead, pull some last-minute bullshit that Videl actually has great potential or some shit, go through with the entire initial plan to save Goten and Trunks, only as Gohan and Videl instead of Goku and Vegeta. Have him remember that Piccolo also trained with Kaio and should logically know how to do the Genki-Dama, while he, Videl, Goten and Trunks fend off Kid Boo. That would show that not only is he a strong fighter, but also a good leader.

So you mean have Videl unlock her potential like Goku, Gohan, Kuririn, Vegeta and Piccolo (DBS Super Hero)? Keep in mind Videl only knows how to fly, she doesn't have any other skill. Then again there is the ROSAT, so time wouldn't be an issue.
Piccolo didn't know about the Genki Dama, until he saw Goku use it on planet Namek. So Piccolo never got to learn it from Kaio. Now could he have learned it during Piccolo training with Goku for three years? Yes it is possible.

The point here isn't even that characters got stronger through bullshit, it's that Gohan, Videl, and co. got robbed of their story.

Videl is written as a ordinary human who did ordinary training, the only thing extraordinary thing she did was flying. That is why she is weak compared to the Z fighters. There is no other reason.

[Kenji]

Your description of Gohan training in the Buu Saga is correct, even Goku found it hard to lift the Z sword. However it doesn't change that Gohan lost power from not training for seven years.

And that's why I'm very glad that entire story got shafted, just so we could get even more Goku with Gohan and Videl becoming housewives afterwards. (irony)

So you mean have Videl unlock her potential like Goku, Gohan, Kuririn, Vegeta and Piccolo (DBS Super Hero)? Keep in mind Videl only knows how to fly, she doesn't have any other skill. Then again there is the ROSAT, so time wouldn't be an issue.
Piccolo didn't know about the Genki Dama, until he saw Goku use it on planet Namek. So Piccolo never got to learn it from Kaio. Now could he have learned it during Piccolo training with Goku for three years? Yes it is possible.
Videl is written as a ordinary human who did ordinary training, the only thing extraordinary thing she did was flying. That is why she is weak compared to the Z fighters. There is no other reason.

My brother, we're talking about a scene where Gohan got stronger by sitting down and doing nothing, what makes you think Videl can't get stronger by sitting down and doing a Voodoo ritual or something?

Hey, remember when Videl went up against Broly and saved Gohan from getting killed?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EV9iEuyzsYM

Granted, she didn't do much other than throw a rock, but it's a sad fact when the fucking Z movies give her a crumb of importance whereas Toriyama gives her none.

[BernardoCairo]

Obviously.
However, my point is that not enough is actually done with it other than making Goku stronger for me personally to have found it enjoyable.

That’s fair. I’m not trying to argue against your taste.
But if you see this as a problem, I don’t think it really comes from the Namek arc itself. Super Saiyajin Goku there is clearly different from what we get later. In the fight with Freeza, he’s much harsher, almost ruthless at points, even a bit sadistic, but not evil. When he comes back to Earth, that edge is mostly gone. As he and Trunks get used to the form, they behave much more like their normal selves.
And I don’t think that shift is necessarily a bad thing. The Android arc does a lot with it. Goku, Gohan, Vegeta and Trunks all try to go beyond Super Saiyajin in their own ways, and you can see their personalities in how they approach it. Goku, especially, moves forward by thinking rather than just pushing harder, mixing his Saiyajin biology with what he learned on Earth to become a more complete fighter.
That said, it is a different take on the transformation. By the time you get to the Boo arc, Super Saiyajin feels almost routine, and it doesn’t have that same edge it had against Freeza, far from it.

It's worth noting here that the scenes with Goku resisting Saiyan heritage and Vegeta punishing himself are all anime-only.
In fact, Goku explicitly says in the manga he's taking Vegeta's Saiyan Pride for himself before fighting Freeza.
The manga really, really doesn't make "Saiyan Pride" a deal like the anime does with its infamous scenes of Vegeta butt-naked.

I wasn’t really talking about Saiyajin pride, but about Goku accepting his origins in general.
When Raditz shows up, Goku rejects everything outright. He refuses to believe he isn’t an Earthling, even when the evidence is right in front of him. Against Vegeta, he already knows the truth, but still pushes it away. He fights like a human, sticking to the mindset he built with Muten Roshi.
Then the Oozaru changes things. Seeing Vegeta transform forces Goku to confront that side of himself. He starts to see it as something monstrous, something tied to what he did to his own grandfather, and that’s where that moment of asking for forgiveness comes from.
The shift on Namek is different. After Kuririn dies and he transforms, Goku doesn’t reject it anymore. He leans into it. He calls himself a Super Saiyajin, fights more aggressively, and even the way he talks changes. He taunts Freeza, plays with him, and goes out of his way to break him mentally.
There’s no way the Goku from the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai would stand there and take a hit to the face just to make a point and play with ego. That’s the difference.