How do you feel about the trope where everyone waits for Goku?

[super michael]

And that's why I'm very glad that entire story got shafted, just so we could get even more Goku with Gohan and Videl becoming housewives afterwards. (irony)

Just because Videl didn't join in the 28th Martial Art Tournament in EOZ, it doesn't mean that she became a housewive in the manga. In the manga we don't know what Videl does in her free time.

My brother, we're talking about a scene where Gohan got stronger by sitting down and doing nothing, what makes you think Videl can't get stronger by sitting down and doing a Voodoo ritual or something?

Hey, remember when Videl went up against Broly and saved Gohan from getting killed?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EV9iEuyzsYM

Granted, she didn't do much other than throw a rock, but it's a sad fact when the fucking Z movies give her a crumb of importance whereas Toriyama gives her none.

Goku, Gohan, Kuririn, Vegeta and Piccolo were already strong before getting their potential unlocked. Videl is weak that is what makes her different. Even Granolah and Gas were strong before getting their wish for more power.

Present Gohan greatly surpassed Future Gohan, due to Present Gohan training being better and more efficient.

[Kenji]

Goku, Gohan, Kuririn, Vegeta and Piccolo were already strong before getting their potential unlocked. Videl is weak that is what makes her different. Even Granolah and Gas were strong before getting their wish for more power.

Present Gohan greatly surpassed Future Gohan, due to Present Gohan training being better and more efficient.

It feels like we're speaking two entire different languages here.

Son, this is a gag manga, that in this arc alone introduced several bullshit ways for the characters to get strong, including normal-ass humans like Spopovich. Toriyama could easily pull another shit out of his ass to make Videl as strong as the Saiyan characters if he wasn't incredibly sexist and hadn't thrown away the new generation story.

[WittyUsername]

I wasn’t really talking about Saiyajin pride, but about Goku accepting his origins in general.
When Raditz shows up, Goku rejects everything outright. He refuses to believe he isn’t an Earthling, even when the evidence is right in front of him. Against Vegeta, he already knows the truth, but still pushes it away. He fights like a human, sticking to the mindset he built with Muten Roshi.
Then the Oozaru changes things. Seeing Vegeta transform forces Goku to confront that side of himself. He starts to see it as something monstrous, something tied to what he did to his own grandfather, and that’s where that moment of asking for forgiveness comes from.
The shift on Namek is different. After Kuririn dies and he transforms, Goku doesn’t reject it anymore. He leans into it. He calls himself a Super Saiyajin, fights more aggressively, and even the way he talks changes. He taunts Freeza, plays with him, and goes out of his way to break him mentally.
There’s no way the Goku from the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai would stand there and take a hit to the face just to make a point and play with ego. That’s the difference.

To be clear, Goku in the manga never had any problem accepting the fact that he’s a Saiyan, at least not past the initial shock of the reveal. Even as early as the Saiyan arc, he has no problem letting Kaio know that he’s a Saiyan. Pretty much every scene of Goku rejecting the notion that he’s a Saiyan and insisting he’s an Earthling are Toei scenes. Toriyama’s Goku never expresses any angst or denial over the fact that he’s a Saiyan. He’s simply not that kind of character.

[super michael]

Goku, Gohan, Kuririn, Vegeta and Piccolo were already strong before getting their potential unlocked. Videl is weak that is what makes her different. Even Granolah and Gas were strong before getting their wish for more power.

Present Gohan greatly surpassed Future Gohan, due to Present Gohan training being better and more efficient.

It feels like we're speaking two entire different languages here.

Son, this is a gag manga, that in this arc alone introduced several bullshit ways for the characters to get strong, including normal-ass humans like Spopovich. Toriyama could easily pull another shit out of his ass to make Videl as strong as the Saiyan characters if he wasn't incredibly sexist and hadn't thrown away the new generation story.

Even if it is a gag manga, it doesn't mean the story can't make sense. Lets assume Toriyama introduced something to get Videl from weak to as strong as the Z fighters and Saiyans, then people would ask why doesn't the Saiyan do the same as Videl.

Pan we see that she wants to train Goku, the strongest person on earth. In DBS Pan is training with Piccolo another strong person on earth. She has the potential to surpass both Videl and Gohan.

Spopovich is still far weaker than the Z fighters.

[Kenji]

Even if it is a gag manga, it doesn't mean the story can't make sense. Lets assume Toriyama introduced something to get Videl from weak to as strong as the Z fighters and Saiyans, then people would ask why doesn't the Saiyan do the same as Videl.

Because if there's one thing Dragon Ball is known for, it's for logic and consistency, and it has never defied those before. (irony)

The Saiyans are already pretty up their ass about not using the Potara to win against Boo, not stopping Gero when they have the chance, not going SSJ3 against Boo because they want to leave stuff for the new generation, not going SSJ3 against Vegeta because "I just didn't have the time", I don't think it'd be hard to think of an excuse for Videl.

[super michael]

Even if it is a gag manga, it doesn't mean the story can't make sense. Lets assume Toriyama introduced something to get Videl from weak to as strong as the Z fighters and Saiyans, then people would ask why doesn't the Saiyan do the same as Videl.

Because if there's one thing Dragon Ball is known for, it's for logic and consistency, and it has never defied those before. (irony)

The Saiyans are already pretty up their ass about not using the Potara to win against Boo, not stopping Gero when they have the chance, not going SSJ3 against Boo because they want to leave stuff for the new generation, not going SSJ3 against Vegeta because "I just didn't have the time", I don't think it'd be hard to think of an excuse for Videl.

I agree that it was dumb destroying the Potara, Vegeta destroyed it two times. The Saiyans were not the only ones against using the Dragon Balls to find Dr Gero labs, plus Goku reason was that Dr Gero hasn't done anything bad yet. Goku did use SSJ3 against Buu, however his job was to stall Buu not kill Buu. Goku knew using SSJ3 would reduce his time on earth, how much time was unknown to Goku. That is why SSJ3 was to be used in an emergency. Goku didn't expect Vegeta to get as strong as he did, he didn't know Babidi magic made him stronger.

Going from normal human strength to Gohan level is far too big, especially with her limited skills that she knows.

[Kenji]

Going from normal human strength to Gohan level is far too big, especially with her limited skills that she knows.

I thought being literally born that strong was far too big a gap, too.
Yet, Toriyama did it anyway for a quick gag.

[super michael]

Going from normal human strength to Gohan level is far too big, especially with her limited skills that she knows.

I thought being literally born that strong was far too big a gap, too.
Yet, Toriyama did it anyway for a quick gag.

Do you mean Gohan being born with the powers that he had? They explained Saiyan culture that every Saiyan power level are tested from birth, there are those that are born with high power level and those that are born with low power level. Then we find out hybrid Saiyans has more potential than pure blooded Saiyan.

Nappa was thinking of using the humans to have hybrid babies.

Goku = born weak
Vegeta = born strong
Gohan = born strong
Nappa = born strong
Raditz = born strong

[Yellow Flower King]

Going from normal human strength to Gohan level is far too big, especially with her limited skills that she knows.

I thought being literally born that strong was far too big a gap, too.
Yet, Toriyama did it anyway for a quick gag.

Do you mean Gohan being born with the powers that he had? They explained Saiyan culture that every Saiyan power level are tested from birth, there are those that are born with high power level and those that are born with low power level. Then we find out hybrid Saiyans has more potential than pure blooded Saiyan.

Nappa was thinking of using the humans to have hybrid babies.

And then Vegeta killed him... and put his ideas to work lol.

[Kenji]

Do you mean Gohan being born with the powers that he had? They explained Saiyan culture that every Saiyan power level are tested from birth, there are those that are born with high power level and those that are born with low power level. Then we find out hybrid Saiyans has more potential than pure blooded Saiyan.

I mean Goten and Trunks.
Both of them are just born near Gohan's level with zero explanation, Videl is born leagues above her father also with zero explanation. All of this is pretty consistent with the story Toriyama intended to tell, that the new generation was set to surpass the old. Videl getting the Super Magic Water Treatment wouldn't hurt that story in the slightest.

"But she's a regular human!" So was Oob

[super michael]

Do you mean Gohan being born with the powers that he had? They explained Saiyan culture that every Saiyan power level are tested from birth, there are those that are born with high power level and those that are born with low power level. Then we find out hybrid Saiyans has more potential than pure blooded Saiyan.

I mean Goten and Trunks.

Sorry my bad. We know Goten and Trunks are born from Super Saiyan parents and we know they trained with their parents and each others, although we have been over this already.
I will add this, mutant does exist in Dragon Ball. The Ginyu Forces are considered mutants.

[SylentEcho]

How do you feel about the trope where everyone waits for Goku?

A lot of people seem to hate it, but 'm fine with it.

It's not like he actually wins entire battles after he arrives. Fights against The Ginyu Force and Nappa were the only ones he won, when people were waiting.

[Yellow Flower King]

Also people ignore that if this didnt happen Goku would simply get to do everything and the rest of the cast would have nothing to do but stare at walls. Not Kenji, she does have really good arguments and presents them well as to why this is a tired trope and how things could have done better. But not having Goku present and fix everything allows for excellent drama and character moments.

[Kenji]

I just want to get something straight, real quick:

Being born that strong because you have "potential":
Surpassing old martial masters who had to train for hundreds of years in a matter of days with barely any training:
Getting stronger via a magical sneeze transformation:
Getting stronger via the Dragon Balls:
Getting stronger via magical water:

And all of the above was before the Saiyan retcon, when Goku was meant to be just a regular human.
After which, we have:

Being born that strong because of nebulous alien biology:
Getting stronger after near-death because of nebulous alien biology:
Getting your "potential unlocked" by some random alien of an entirely different species:
Getting stronger by fusing with people:
Getting stronger by enhancing a human's body with cybernetics:

And in this very arc, we have:

Being born that strong because lol:
Getting stronger by making pacts with the devil:
Getting stronger by some kind of Voodoo Ritual:
Getting stronger by using special earrings:
Being born that strong as a regular human because you're an alien's reincarnation:

And yet somehow, some-fucking-how, you think the idea of Videl getting stronger through any excuse, any at all, would be a betrayal of logic? I don't want to say this reeks of sexism... But this reeks of sexism, sorry.

[super michael]

Do you mean Gohan being born with the powers that he had? They explained Saiyan culture that every Saiyan power level are tested from birth, there are those that are born with high power level and those that are born with low power level. Then we find out hybrid Saiyans has more potential than pure blooded Saiyan.

I mean Goten and Trunks.
Both of them are just born near Gohan's level with zero explanation, Videl is born leagues above her father also with zero explanation. All of this is pretty consistent with the story Toriyama intended to tell, that the new generation was set to surpass the old. Videl getting the Super Magic Water Treatment wouldn't hurt that story in the slightest.

"But she's a regular human!" So was Oob

We don't know Goten, Trunks and Videl power level as a baby. Videl surpassed Mr Satan from training, not because of her birth power level. Mr Satan believes he doesn't need to train anymore. As I have mentioned before Goten and Trunks trained with each other and they trained with their parents.

I have no problem Videl getting her potential unlocked by any methods, I am just saying the others who got their potential unlocked was already strong.

Piccolo a reincarnated character who surpassed his original self. Uub is a reincarnation just like Piccolo.

I just want to get something straight, real quick:

Being born that strong because you have "potential":
Surpassing old martial masters who had to train for hundreds of years in a matter of days with barely any training:
Getting stronger via a magical sneeze transformation:
Getting stronger via the Dragon Balls:
Getting stronger via magical water:

And all of the above was before the Saiyan retcon, when Goku was meant to be just a regular human.
After which, we have:

Being born that strong because of nebulous alien biology:
Getting stronger after near-death because of nebulous alien biology:
Getting your "potential unlocked" by some random alien of an entirely different species:
Getting stronger by fusing with people:
Getting stronger by enhancing a human's body with cybernetics:

And in this very arc, we have:

Being born that strong because lol:
Getting stronger by making pacts with the devil:
Getting stronger by some kind of Voodoo Ritual:
Getting stronger by using special earrings:
Being born that strong as a regular human because you're an alien's reincarnation:

And yet somehow, some-fucking-how, you think the idea of Videl getting stronger through any excuse, any at all, would be a betrayal of logic? I don't want to say this reeks of sexism... But this reeks of sexism, sorry.

- The Dragon Ball in DB wasn't used to get stronger, only restore their youth. It wasn't until DBS that they used the Dragon Balls to get stronger. Piccolo Daimao was really old.
- Technically by Saiyan standard Goku was born weak.
- I don't believe Launch got stronger by sneezing, she relied on weapons and being aggressive.
- I don't see the problem with magic water, alien and DB unlocking potential

I am very sure humans don't turn into giant monkeys, even in the Pilaf Saga they were thinking that Goku wasn't a ordinary kid before he transformed. Plus we had vampires, mummy, invisible man and Piccolo Daimao who are not humans.

- Aliens body are different than humans, so why would they have the same potential as humans. Cats and tigers don't have the same potential.
- Fusion Dance and Potara combines two fighters into one, the individual power doesn't change what changes if the new fighter.



I repeat again those that used potential unlocked were already skillful and strong. Videl isn't strong, that is what makes her different. This has nothing to do with sexism.

[Kenji]

Regular humans don't shapeshift, switch personalities and turn blonde upon sneezing, are able to launch death lasers, or... anything at all shown in Dragon Ball, really... Just saying.

And Videl is introduced as pretty strong, willing to learn new things and surpass her own limits... You know, the entire motto of Dragon Ball? I guess that doesn't matter much because "sHe Is weAk HumaN!!!"

I don't think this conversation is ever going to go anywhere, so I'mma just drop it here.

[JulieYBM]

Videl is not allowed to be strong because of sexism. Videl is not allowed to have her own agency and character arc that is about her as a character because of sexism. Her character is written to fulfill a sexist role. There is no telling any half-self-respecting woman that she is wrong with regards to her analysis of how a female character is written, especially one written by a man.

You can go through super michael's posts and see simple concepts explained to him an infinite number of times. On the rare occasion that he isn't moving the goalposts, he's conceding only to turn around and pretend he's never had these things explained to him before. He's either a troll or a bot of some sort. Either way, engaging with him is a waste of time.

[BernardoCairo]

To be clear, Goku in the manga never had any problem accepting the fact that he’s a Saiyan, at least not past the initial shock of the reveal. Even as early as the Saiyan arc, he has no problem letting Kaio know that he’s a Saiyan. Pretty much every scene of Goku rejecting the notion that he’s a Saiyan and insisting he’s an Earthling are Toei scenes. Toriyama’s Goku never expresses any angst or denial over the fact that he’s a Saiyan. He’s simply not that kind of character.

I never meant that he outright denied being a Saiyajin beyond his first encounter with Raditz. My point is that he never really identified with them. He clearly saw their way of life as immoral, and honestly, it even felt like he viewed the Saiyan race itself as monstrous. His reaction to Oozaru Vegeta gives off that impression.
At the same time, though, he was fascinated by Vegeta’s strength. It left enough of an impact that he asked Kuririn to spare him, which says a lot. There’s this sense that Goku still had unresolved thoughts or curiosity about his Saiyajin side going into Namek. You can kind of see that in how he introduces himself to both Ginyu and Freeza.
Then when he becomes a Super Saiyajin, there’s a noticeable shift. He leans much more into the Saiyajin style of fighting and personality, moving away from the disciplined martial arts approach that defined his connection to Earth and his friends. The difference between Goku in the Tenkaichi Budokai era and the Goku who fights Freeza is huge in that regard. It's more than just anger.
That's what I meant.

[super michael]

Regular humans don't shapeshift, switch personalities and turn blonde upon sneezing, are able to launch death lasers, or... anything at all shown in Dragon Ball, really... Just saying.

And Videl is introduced as pretty strong, willing to learn new things and surpass her own limits... You know, the entire motto of Dragon Ball? I guess that doesn't matter much because "sHe Is weAk HumaN!!!"

I don't think this conversation is ever going to go anywhere, so I'mma just drop it here.

By human standard yes Videl is strong, however compared to Piccolo Daimao she is weak and the Z fighters surpassed him a long time ago.
That is a positive trait to have, to be willing to learn new things, even if everyone that she knows believes ki and flying are tricks not skills.

I don't mind dropping the conversation.

[super michael]

Videl is not allowed to be strong because of sexism. Videl is not allowed to have her own agency and character arc that is about her as a character because of sexism. Her character is written to fulfill a sexist role. There is no telling any half-self-respecting woman that she is wrong with regards to her analysis of how a female character is written, especially one written by a man.

You can go through super michael's posts and see simple concepts explained to him an infinite number of times. On the rare occasion that he isn't moving the goalposts, he's conceding only to turn around and pretend he's never had these things explained to him before. He's either a troll or a bot of some sort. Either way, engaging with him is a waste of time.

There is nothing wrong with Videl being weak compared to the Z fighters, when she is written to be a ordinary human who didn't do any special training. That doesn't mean it is sexist. Videl losing against Spopovich doesn't make it sexist at all.
Mr Satan is weak compared to the Z fighters, I don't see anyone saying that is bad writing.

Who do you think you are to say that I am a bot or trolling, I am giving my honest opinions nothing more and nothing less. Who do you think you are to say that talking to me is a waste of time. You are literally targeting a person, just for a person opinion on the manga.

Kenji claimed that Goten and Trunks were born strong, but I pointed that isn't the only factor. They also trained that is how they got strong. I also pointed out wrong information.