Would removing Neva's macguffin Super Saiyan 4 fix Daima for you?

[DHM211]

I didnt keep up much online during the Daima era, so not sure if this is a popular sentiment or not - regardless, it is for me.

Neva unlocking SS4 kinda ruined the finale and form itself . It was fine when "someone" (or a few people ) was/were needed to help with the SS God, but done twice its tiresome/repetative. Not to mention Neva kinda already overstayed his macguffin power when he not only summoned, but unlocked the earth Dragon Balls early in Daima episode 1.

If we removed Neva’s trigger, the story barely changes, but everything lands better. The fight still flows naturally: SSJ3 Kid Goku pushes as hard as he can, Gomah forces Goku to down-cycle through SS3 -> Base, and then the wish turns everyone back into adults. That way, SSJ4 debuts properly with Adult Goku and feels like a true, epic awakening instead of a repeat. Honestly watching the adult scene back, its kinda how its framed anyway with both in dialogue and form reveal.

(adult) Goku as SS3 : "And now, to go even further beyond".
Gomah:
Vegeta: "It can't be..." (implying he is unfamilar with SS4).

Furthermore, post-battle when Goku and Vegeta are talking:
Vegeta: "And what was that form at the end?"
Goku: "Well, Buu pushed us to our limits. I did some serious training after that. Wasn't sure I'd actually be able to pull it off though."

The whole framing of that convo implies Goku only whipped out SS4 at during the final fight, and fully unlocked the power on his own, just never really pushed himself to see if he could actually transform.

TLDR, removing Neva's macguffin (SS4 kid Goku) keeps Goku’s agency intact, makes Gomah feel more threatening, and gives SSJ4 that first time Super Saiyan/Ultra Instinct moment it deserves.

[The Dark Knight]

There are actually four issues with Daima's Ssj4:

The first issue is the complete lack of foreshadowing beforehand. Have Goku talk about being turned back into a kid preventing him from working on "it", or have Neva comment on Goku having a stronger power in him, or just anything. All the Ssj forms in Z and Ssj4 in GT were foreshadowed well, although some better than others.

The second issues is the way it was reached. Was Goku literally just being handed the form with 0 work really the best they could come up with ? This goes against everything Goku believes in, as well as the many themes about hard work this franchise is known for. Even Gohan had to sit still for 24 hours straight to get his ultimate form.

The third issue is the fact that it added absolutely nothing to the plot, as neither kid nor adult Goku achieved anything with it; the story remains the exact same if Goku just uses Ssj3. Daima's Ssj4 is a textbook definition of "we have a new series, so we have to have a new form".

The fourth issue, which couldn't be avoided no matter what they did, was the fact that it would never live up to GT's Ssj4. GT got many things wrong, but its handling of Ssj4 is arguably the best handled Ssj transformation in the entire franchise, so why bother copying it to begin with ? I have the same issue with Broly and Bardock, which is Toei and Toriyama taking concepts that were perfect as is, and reintroducing them in an inferior way.

Neva unlocking SS4 kinda ruined the finale and form itself.

Every new form in modern DB has ruined the final for me to a degree or another. SsjG, SsjB, Mastered Ultra Instinct, Ultra Ego, Orange Piccolo, Beast Gohan, and finally Ssj4. They either come out of nowhere (Blue), add nothing to the plot (Ultra Ego), not earned by the characters (Orange Piccolo), or a mix of all the above (Ssj4). Every new form in Z and GT felt like a well earned milestone that elevated the plot and character who achieved it, but now ? I just roll my eyes whenever someone transforms, because each and every one of them have nothing to do with the plot or characters, but rather to tick a box set by Bandai and the figure manufacturers.

[JulieYBM]

No? Why would it? It's nohere near the main issue with the series, the lack of character development and the irregular narrative structure of episodes is the issue that prevents Daima from working as a good series.

[Kenji]

"Fixed Daima" already exists, it's called GT.
From characters, to their arcs, to their development, to location variety, to having an actual story with an actual message behind it.

Daima's entire selling point is "Here's GT, except Toriyama is writing it this time!"
And goddamn, Toriyama was even worse at it.

When you take GT and you strip it down to its most basic and popular aspects, you're left with Daima.

[The Dark Knight]

"Fixed Daima" already exists, it's called GT.

It's not the most fair of comparisons considering GT is 65 episodes long (3 arcs and a TV special) while Daima is only a single 20 episode arc. With that said, Toei pretty much shot Daima in the foot by limiting it to just 20 episodes, as the story they were telling clearly needed more episodes to properly tell it. GT on the other hand gave each of its arcs the proper amount of episodes to tell the stories they were trying to tell, which resulted in a more natural pace from start to finish. Before someone jumps in and says "but the Super 17 arc was only 6 episodes!!!!"; that's all it needed. It was a simple arc with a simple premise, and in fact, you could probably cut out an episode and not lose anything. As much as I and many others love Daima's production value, I would've rather it be an 8 with 3-5 more episodes, rather than a 10 with less. Visuals are important, but they can only carry a show so far when the story itself is taking a backseat.

[angeldreamZ004]

Definitely not in my opinion as I personally consider Neva unlocking Goku's SSJ4 one of the things that made Daima interesting after all. It gave the form the opportunity to go beyond just looking cool but uninteresting in concept.

I don't think the SSJG ritual is the best comparison to it, but rather the moments in the original series where an entity unlocked someone's hidden power. Such as the Namek's Saichoro unlocking Gohan's potential, and the Ro Kaioshin doing the same and making him go Ultimate.
That concept of supernatural entities from the Makai giving mortal entities the access to more power or even transformations is only further explored with Neva, so I like the way it is and can't really see how removing that could improve Daima.

If Daima SSJ4 followed the route you described, yeah, it would be epic, but would lack substance in my opinion. It would be just like the Boo Saga transformations that came after Gohan's SSJ2. Everyone else's SSJ2 and the SSJ3, came out of nowhere and gave us epic designs and epic scenes, but that's all. The original SSJ4 is kinda the same, though I do think GT tried to make it more interesting than just another cool form that made Goku stronger.

I'm personally not a fan of these forms, don't care that much about them, didn't care about Vegeta's SSJ3 either, I prefer the forms like the ones from Super, they don't have a mind blowing design, which honestly, I prefer them being simple and not changing the appearance too much, as they deliver very interesting concepts behind them, they don't make the character stronger only, which reminds me a lot of SSJ1, its variations and Gohan's SSJ2.

My problem with Daima's SSJ4 is that, even though they tried to make it interesting in concept, it still lacked a real build up to it like how SSJ1-SSJ2 and SSJG-UI/UE had. So it still felt like it came out of nowhere just like any of the SSJ3s.
And Daima's ending only contributed even less to the transformation as it had Goku saying that he was trying to achieve it but couldn't. They lost the opportunity to tell us something like “SSJ4 is a supernatural form linked to the Makai, and can not be accessed outside of it” which is extremely weird to me, as it would solve the problem of Daima failing to connect itself to Super. And if SSJ4 was just another regular form unlocked through the means of regular training, then it would make the lack of connection even worse.

If SSJ4 ever returns in the future, I hope they explore it more, alongside Beast Gohan and Orange Piccolo, as I also think those forms are kinda superficial when compared to the new forms Goku and Vegeta acquired throughout Super.

Edit: I hope the same is done to Black Freeza as well, though I'm pretty sure they'll just leave the way it is as another form to make Freeza stronger like his Gold form. I would like though if they actually explained the Black form as simply being the Golden form but stronger, and it looks different because Freeza decided to re-customize it, as he can do that to his transformation very similarly to how he could costumize 3 weaker forms for himself. I personally would be satisfied with this explanation.

[Kenji]

It's not the most fair of comparisons considering GT is 65 episodes long (3 arcs and a TV special) while Daima is only a single 20 episode arc. With that said, Toei pretty much shot Daima in the foot by limiting it to just 20 episodes, as the story they were telling clearly needed more episodes to properly tell it.

I humbly disagree with that.
The original Dragon Ball arcs never went past 13-15 episodes, and they were paced very well.
The Saiyan arc was relatively short as well in Kai.
GT in its first 5 episodes was able to tell Daima's entire 20-episode story of living under an oppressive land and how Goku's influence changes people for the better with its Imegga storyline.

If anything, Daima was way too long for the little story it had.
I see this as Toei's habit of padding shit out to exhaustion as they did with Battle of Gods and Resurrection F's retellings in Super.
The rumors that Daima was originally meant to be half its runtime don't help either.

[The Dark Knight]

It's not the most fair of comparisons considering GT is 65 episodes long (3 arcs and a TV special) while Daima is only a single 20 episode arc. With that said, Toei pretty much shot Daima in the foot by limiting it to just 20 episodes, as the story they were telling clearly needed more episodes to properly tell it.

I humbly disagree with that.
The original Dragon Ball arcs never went past 13-15 episodes, and they were paced very well.
The Saiyan arc was relatively short as well in Kai.
GT in its first 5 episodes was able to tell Daima's entire 20-episode story of living under an oppressive land and how Goku's influence changes people for the better with its Imegga storyline.

If anything, Daima was way too long for the little story it had.
I see this as Toei's habit of padding shit out to exhaustion as they did with Battle of Gods and Resurrection F's retellings in Super.
The rumors that Daima was originally meant to be half its runtime don't help either.

The problem is that Daima skipped over some very important plot points, such as Glorio's relationship with Arensu, and rushed others, such as Ssj4. Daima should've either been longer to cover these properly, or restructure the story to include them in the 20 episodes they had to work with by removing filler-like material such as the giants in episode 14. Another issue is Gomah, we were told about how terrifying he was, but we never got to see it. The arcs you mentioned didn't need to be longer because the stories they were telling fit within the episodes they had to work with.

[Chuquita]

What I disliked the most about Daima was them being turned into children. Improving ssj4's backstory wouldn't move the needle for me.

[Kenji]

The problem is that Daima skipped over some very important plot points, such as Glorio's relationship with Arensu, and rushed others, such as Ssj4. Daima should've either been longer to cover these properly, or restructure the story to include them in the 20 episodes they had to work with by removing filler-like material such as the giants in episode 14. Another issue is Gomah, we were told about how terrifying he was, but we never got to see it. The arcs you mentioned didn't need to be longer because the stories they were telling fit within the episodes they had to work with.

Just reminding you, Giru also has an arc of being sent to a planet with amnesia, bonding with the heroes and betraying his masters, and it all gets executed in 20~ episodes. Yamcha has an arc of starting as a villain, bonding with the heroes, overcoming his fear of women, and turning over a new leaf. The same can be said about Bulma and Oolong. All of it is executed in 13 episodes.

In stark contrast, Daima has 20 episodes and manages to do almost nothing with every single character involved. Daima's issue is definitely not the episode count. There's a lot you can do in 20 episodes. Heck, there's a lot you can do in a standalone movie, just ask Disney's 90s animated movie writers.

The issue is that Daima doesn't have near enough story to tell, so it resorts to a lot of time-wasting "adventures" like meeting a scared minotaur, meeting the discount Ginyu Force, countless ship problems, fighting against enemies untransformed only to transform at the very end and effortlessly take them out, pulling all the brakes and stopping for 10 minutes to deliver a lore dump, the list goes on and on and on.

[JulieYBM]

Twenty episodes is, like, six hours of time. It's way more than enough time to tell a story. Great weekly television anime have been made with half of that time. The problem was absolutely that the series was poorly structured and written, probably because of Toriyama's oversight being followed precisely, Iyoku's meddling or Yashima's inexperienced series direction.

[Mr Baggins]

TLDR, removing Neva's macguffin (SS4 kid Goku) keeps Goku’s agency intact, makes Gomah feel more threatening, and gives SSJ4 that first time Super Saiyan/Ultra Instinct moment it deserves.

That's such a minor thing to change I can't see how it would have "fixed" the whole show in anyone's view. As a miniseries, Daima already brings the charm, humor, characterization, theming, world expansion, and overall competent writing that a show like GT fundamentally lacked throughout all 64 of its episodes. It succeeded at what it arguably set out to do; namely, being a version of GT that wasn't a lifeless viewing experience.

But regarding your critique specifically: I believe the producers have already gone on record to suggest the grown-up Goku had SS4 all along, while the child version specifically needed Neva's unlock to reach that form. I think each of the "reveals" in episodes 18 and 19 serve their own purpose, though I agree that the one in 19 would have been more impactful without the one in 18.

[Kaboom]

"Fixed Daima" already exists, it's called GT.

This!

But now that the obvious answer is out of the way... This is gonna sound weird and possibly self-contradictory, but no. As much as I dislike False SS4 itself for being a cheap, phoned-in imitation of the real thing from GT, I actually wouldn't remove it from Daima. That's because I'm not really interested in "fixing" Daima in the first place. I'm not interested in Daima at all, honestly. I didn't even watch it, and from what I gleaned about it second-hand, I still have no desire to do so.

What I am interested in is Daima being firmly set in a separate continuity from either of the already-separate versions of Super, and the presence of False SS4 is the one big thing that really makes that happen. Thus leaving yet even more egg on the faces of the folks who spent the last decade or so obnoxiously insisting that Super(s) was the "one true canon sequel" or "Toriyama's true vision" or whatever other nonsense while pretending entire other huge segments of the franchise were somehow invalid.

So for that reason alone, I'm fine with False SS4 sticking around and doing its job as the mascot form of the "Daima Continuity." The fact that it both looks and is gained so differently from True SS4 in GT actually makes it really easy to compartmentalize them as separate things in-universe too. So it's relatively harmless, as long as it remains over in its own little corner there.

[The Dark Knight]

What I am interested in is Daima being firmly set in a separate continuity from either of the already-separate versions of Super, and the presence of False SS4 is the one big thing that really makes that happen. Thus leaving yet even more egg on the faces of the folks who spent the last decade or so obnoxiously insisting that Super(s) was the "one true canon sequel" or "Toriyama's true vision" or whatever other nonsense while pretending entire other huge segments of the franchise were somehow invalid.

Here's an idea I've seen thrown around by a handful of people: GT got there first, so it's up to Super and Daima to line up with it, not the other way around, and until that happens, GT is what's "canon". As someone who doesn't have strong feelings towards any of the three sequels we've gotten (Although I find myself leaning towards GT the more I analyze things), I'm beginning to agree with this line of thinking. GT was a thing for TWENTY years before Super was even a concept, so why does GT have to work within Super's boundaries and not the other way around ?

[angeldreamZ004]

They don't have to, since the 3 have different goals from the start.
GT is a continuation of the Dragon Ball Z Anime which was a continuation of the original Dragon Ball anime, entirely imagined by Toei's team, with no involvement from Toriyama.
When the final episode of GT shows a screen saying “The End”, it means that the story is over, not the story of GT only but of that entire TV serialization that started in 1986. That's why you'll even see GT addressing characters, events, places and concepts that are exclusive to the Old Toei universe.

While Super had Toriyama involved and was made as a continuation to his original manga, but taking place before the original Super. So you'll see characters and ideas that try to connect to EoZ, but not GT because that's not its idea.

Daima was also made as a continuation to the original manga, but taking place before Super, that's why it also addresses characters and concepts from Super. (I know there are the contradictions that compromise the continuity, but that's not my point, I'm talking about the connections, Toei's old anime verse had continuity problems too)

As for the people who try to say “which sequel is worth more”, it's a field I don't really try to touch given how it's purely up to personal taste. A lot of people on both sides (GT > Super, Super > GT, Daima > GT etc) will inevitably put their emotions over what's actually real, making them say which is the “true sequel" and a lot will say it's Super but not GT because it had “Toriyama involved”, of course from Toriyama's perspective Super is more important than GT, the same way DBOnline also served as a continuation to his manga. It's not my thing as I prefer working with facts, and Toyotaro himself already highly suggested that it doesn't matter which sequel is closer to “true canon” because there are multiple of them and the fans choose by themselves which one they pick.

For that you would need someone officially stating that Daima is set in a separate continuity. In-universe, Super Beerus can very well still address the events of Daima, which we'll have to wait. But for now, it's vague. In-universe, there's evidence that Daima is connected to Super, but there's also evidence that the two are not connected. So the two sides (want connections vs don't connections) can forever argue on that while there's no proof for it.

Out-universe all we know is that it's chronologically set before Super Beerus by release order.
Even if Daima remains inconsistent with Super, people can't really use that as proof that it belongs to its own “separate continuity”.

After all, not even GT's continuity was consistent. For example, try to explain the appearance of characters such as Garlic Jr., Haiya Dragon, Coola, and you'll probably have a strong headache.

[Kenji]

Infinitely better idea: Enjoy things.
It's pointless to care about what fictional fairy tale is the true one when none of them are actually real.

Just like My Immortal is the only Harry Potter related thing worth a damn, furry fanart of Beerus and Whis being a gay couple matter infinitely more to me than whatever Toriyama did in his entire life.

[Grimlock]

Even if Daima remains inconsistent with Super, people can't really use that as proof that it belongs to its own “separate continuity”.

Why not? People have arbitrarily said that Dragon Ball GT takes place in a separate continuity due to its "inconsistencies", why wouldn't Dragon Ball Daima be treated the same? If it's inconsistent, then it will also be in a separate continuity.

Then again, this implies that Dragon Ball Super is some sort of "higher authority", as though any other work has to be consistent with it. It is not. Dragon Ball Super is set in another continuity too, because if we must have a "higher authority", it would be the original series, which Dragon Ball Super is not consistent with either.

For example, try to explain the appearance of characters such as Garlic Jr., Haiya Dragon, Coola, and you'll probably have a strong headache.

Simple: The Garlic Junior saga and Dragon Ball GT take place in the movies dimension.

That didn't give me strong headache.

[angeldreamZ004]

Why not? People have arbitrarily said that Dragon Ball GT takes place in a separate continuity due to its "inconsistencies", why wouldn't Dragon Ball Daima be treated the same? If it's inconsistent, then it will also be in a separate continuity.

Because their goals are different, I'm talking about a out-universe perspective. In-universe there's evidence that Daima tries to connect itself to Super, but there's evidence for the opposite as well, you can argue either way.
Daima tries to be a sequel to the original manga, just like Super did.
GT on the other hand doesn't try to be a continuation to the original manga, its goal is to continue the Z anime. This was once confirmed by Takao Koyama a time ago, he was the writer for the stories of Z and its old respective movies.

Then again, this implies that Dragon Ball Super is some sort of "higher authority", as though any other work has to be consistent with it. It is not. Dragon Ball Super is set in another continuity too, because if we must have a "higher authority", it would be the original series, which Dragon Ball Super is not consistent with either.

No I didn't say this, and neither I said that Super doesn't have inconsistensies, obviously it does, it's contradicting the EoZ by all means for that reason (also, I wrote in my previous post "Super taking place before the original Super", my bad, I meant "taking place before the EoZ")
What I'm referring to is the idea behind each series, not which of them is a "higher authority", this is what some fans want you to believe by saying that Super and Daima had Toriyama involved. That's not my point, my point is telling the purpose behind each series.

GT = Not thought by Toriyama, but by Toei as a continuation to the Z anime.
Super = Thought by Toriyama as a continuation to his manga, before the EoZ.
Daima = Thought by Toriyama as another continuation to his manga, before Super.

You can throw other stuff as well, DBOnline thought by Toriyama as a continuation to his manga as well, same for Neko Majin. Or Heroes being a sequel to...all Dragon Balls sort of? (I don't know)

Simple: The Garlic Junior saga and Dragon Ball GT take place in the movies dimension.

That's just a fan theory, I'm not talking about fan theories, but about the reality, and trying to imagine a scenario where everything is consistent, but that is not possible, all Dragon Balls have in-universe incosistencies. The easiest way to explain it is that Toei thought of the movies as canon to their anime continuity, and they didn't care that it made no sense in-universe, they're simply canon to the anime and we have to accept it.

Plus, Maron shows up in the Androids Saga in one episode, meaning that the Garlic Jr. is canon to anime Androids Saga.

[Zephyr]

The form's design ruined it for me more than anything Neva did. Bald patches clash with wristbands, and the orange-on-maroon is so fucking ugly with no blue waistband breaking them up. It looks like a combination of GT's Super Saiyan 4 with Super Saiyan God, but has nothing mechanically to do with either of them. Neva aside, Goku powers up while Super Saiyan 3 to reach an even higher form, and it looks nothing like something that was reached by powering up while Super Saiyan 3; "Neva did it" actually works better in this case. This might be the only new transformation from the revival era that I actually don't like. It drops every ball possible.

Fixing the form wouldn't "fix Daima" for me, though. I don't like that it's a midquel of a midquel. I didn't like GT's age regression premise, and I like it even less being applied to the rest of the cast. I didn't like GT opening with a downgraded reheating of the Pilaf arc, and I dislike Daima reheating GT's reheating of it even more. I don't like Vegeta getting Super Saiyan 3 in the span of a few months continuing the post-Kanzenban tradition of trying to justify artificially extending his shelf-life as Goku's main rival. Show still had its moments, though.

[The Dark Knight]

I don't like Vegeta getting Super Saiyan 3 in the span of a few months continuing the post-Kanzenban tradition of trying to justify artificially extending his shelf-life as Goku's main rival.

Vegeta's entire life revolves around training and getting stronger, so reaching Ssj3 was always a logical next step for him that should've happened a lot sooner than it did. I never understood why fans think that Vegeta admitting Goku was better than him meant he was going to stop training and getting stronger; that was never the point of that scene. If anything, that scene showed Vegeta finally understood why Goku succeeded in getting stronger while he struggled, so reaching Ssj3 as fast as he did proves that Vegeta was indeed right in his assessment of the source of Goku's strength. With that said, I'm not the biggest fan of Vegeta just having the form, as I would've liked to see something like GT's 55th episode where Vegeta reflected on his past before attempting to ascend to Ssj4. Don't get me wrong, I really liked how he used Ssj3, but I would've liked to see more story behind it.