I was at Comicon Napoli and got to watch Kazuhiko Torishima being interviewed.

[Izanagi]

I didn't take any photos as it's often restricted or discouraged. But I have a summary of what Torishima said throughout the interview. He has some interesting, refreshingly blunt takes about the current state of the industry and doesn't mince words.



- He was strongly against making Goku an adult. He was seriously worried it would kill DB's sales.
- He hated how Toei handled the Piccolo Daimao fight. The team was the same one from Dr. Slump who are great at comedy but sucks at fight scenes. This was one of the low points.
- Because of that mess, they decided to rebrand the franchise with Dragon Ball Z and bring in a new team.
- The team who worked on Z is the same one that worked on Saint Seiya.
- Torishima considers these two moments the toughest in Dragon Ball's entire history.
- The actual reason it's called Z is because Toriyama thought Z was the last letter of the alphabet, so nothing more would come out after it.
- When DB ended, the manga industry crashed down. According to him, GT was made because otherwise half the industry would lose their jobs.
- Battle of Gods came out due to a promise Torishima made to his dying best friend: "If I somehow survive, let's make a Dragon Ball movie."
- Torishima thought the first draft of Battle of Gods sucked. So Toei asked Toriyama, who wrote the current version of the movie.
- On the subject of Dragon Ball Daima, Torishima made it no secret to express his disdain and said: "Daima is shit. Everyone at Toei hates me. Daima betrays Dragon Ball; it's slow, stupid and the first episode is useless. I have no idea how it was approved in the first place."
- Torishima thinks old manga are much better than modern manga.
- Torishima says today's manga suck because they rarely take the actual print into account. They don't take into consideration the two pages of a spread and he blames smartphones for it.
- Torishima also criticized modern manga heavily. He says most current series are overloaded with narration and explanations. A proper manga page should be readable in just 3 seconds, echoing the philosophy of the Father of Manga, Osamu Tezuka.
- According to Torishima, Weekly Shonen Jump (and manga in general) became much wordier as the readership aged. Mangaka began writing for adults instead of kids, changing the whole style.
- He thinks One Piece sucks because it's no longer really a manga for kids due to that.
- He thinks One Piece became famous thanks to Luffy being an extremely relatable protagonist.
- He claims Oda was smart in introducing even more relatable protagonists, and singled out Zoro, Nami and Usopp for being amazing characters. Especially Usopp for being the most normal.
- He calls Oda a massive comic/manga nerd with a genuine passion for the medium.
- He doesn't consider being a huge manga fan a good trait.
- He says the big difference between OP and DB is that Oda is too in love with manga and his own story, while Toriyama hated drawing manga.
- According to Torishima, Toriyama hated manga, so he made them as synthetized as possible. But that's exactly why Dragon Ball became such a masterpiece: anyone can read it easily. One Piece, on the other hand, is too heavy and unapproachable to kids.
- Torishima doesn't think there's a single good manga today.
- He called Jujutsu Kaisen, Demon Slayer and especially Chainsaw Man crap.
- He also dislikes Blue Lock.
- He thinks Hirayasumi is the only modern manga worth reading and considers Touch one of the best manga ever made
- Torishima complimented the interviewer for talking about the kishotenketsu story structure.
- He thought Naruto was very good at the start. He wanted Masashi Kishimoto to kill off Sasuke and keep Kakashi dead.
- He thinks Pain was the last good Naruto arc.
- Torishima thinks modern manga has two problems: 1.) Manga is written by adults for adults, making them too wordy and unappealing to kids. 2.) Manga is too expensive for kids.
- He says this cycle must stop because if kids aren't reading today, there won't be mangaka tomorrow.
- Torishima thinks only Japanese people can make manga.
- He specifically laughed at Kodansha's worldwide manga contest.
- Torishima told the interviewer about a "secret announcement" that he can't disclose yet.
- Finally, when Toriyama died, Torishima felt the need to come out of retirement and tell the world about his late friend and Dragon Ball. This is why he started going to conventions more often.

You can find the original thread on my Twitter.
https://twitter.com/XMathemagicianX/sta ... 6143386716

[JulieYBM]

Damn girl, I hope that was a bit on his part because otherwise he sounds like the most miserable fucker ever lol

[The Dark Knight]

Damn girl, I hope that was a bit on his part because otherwise he sounds like the most miserable fucker ever lol

I think it's actually refreshing to see someone as important as him be so honest about his thoughts, even if I personally don't agree with all of them. Everyone now is so over polite and vague that what they say just comes off as fake.

- He hated how Toei handled the Piccolo Daimao fight.
- Because of that mess, they decided to rebrand the franchise with Dragon Ball Z and bring in a new team.

I've read this before and I honestly don't get it; I wish he would elaborate more on what he didn't like. The only scene I didn't like was how slow Goku was going up after firing the Kamehameha from his one arm before going through Piccolo.

- The team who worked on Z is the same one that worked on Saint Seiya.

Actually, the team started with the 23rd Tenkaichi arc, it's just that the series' name change didn't get approved until the following arc.

- The actual reason it's called Z is because Toriyama thought Z was the last letter of the alphabet, so nothing more would come out after it.

And nothing should have.

- When DB ended, the manga industry crashed down. According to him, GT was made because otherwise half the industry would lose their jobs.

The anime and manga industry are now in a similar situation with One Piece coming to an end, especially Weekly Shonen Jump, as they've yet to put out a massive hit this decade so far.

Torishima said: "Daima is shit. Daima betrays Dragon Ball; it's slow, stupid and the first episode is useless. I have no idea how it was approved in the first place."

Battle of Gods and the Moro arc are the only two stories in this revival that feel like complete stories; everything else either feels like a rough draft (Daima) or a concept that never even got a draft (Resurrection F).

- Torishima thinks old manga are much better than modern manga.

I think an issue with current mangaka is that it feels like they're trying too hard, while with veterans like Toriyama, their writing felt more natural.

- Torishima also says most current series are overloaded with narration and explanations.

This man is speaking facts right here. There are One Piece pages that look like they have enough dialogue in them to fill out an entire chapter, which just makes the process of reading it annoying and confusing. This is a prime example of trying too hard.

- He thinks One Piece sucks because it's no longer really a manga for kids.

If you can't tell your story in 500 chapters or so (10 years), then there's something wrong with your writing style as an author, and I say this as a One Piece fan. You can pretty much cut half of each arc and lose nothing in the process.

- He doesn't consider being a huge manga fan a good trait. He says the big difference between OP and DB is that Oda is too in love with manga and his own story, while Toriyama hated drawing manga.

I would say another difference is that Toriyama was writing for an audience, while Oda is writing for himself. This resulted in DB being far more approachable than One Piece.

- Torishima doesn't think there's a single good manga today. He called Jujutsu Kaisen, Demon Slayer and especially Chainsaw Man crap. He also dislikes Blue Lock.

Hard disagreement here.

- He thinks Pain was the last good Naruto arc.

I personally liked the Kage summit and the lead up to the war, but once the war actually started, the series fell off a cliff and is still in free-fall.

- Torishima thinks only Japanese people can make manga.

I think a foreigner can become a mangaka if they grew up in Japan and fully understand their history and culture, but as far as random people from around the world becoming mangaka, I do agree with him.

[dbgtFO]

Jesus this guy just does NOT hold back hahaha
Well except the secret announcement part, we'll see soon enough what it will be.
I agree on Daima pretty much.

[Kenji]

- He was strongly against making Goku an adult. He was seriously worried it would kill DB's sales.

- On the subject of Dragon Ball Daima, Torishima made it no secret to express his disdain and said: "Daima is shit. Everyone at Toei hates me. Daima betrays Dragon Ball; it's slow, stupid and the first episode is useless. I have no idea how it was approved in the first place."

He sounds so contradictory.
Do you want Dragon Ball to make money or do you want Dragon Ball to be an actual work of art?

Because if the answer is "Make money," there you go, there's the reason why Daima got approved in the first place and is the way it is. You seriously cannot complain a work of art is shit while simultaneously saying it should adhere to capitalistic metrics of success. Because if history has shown us anything in regards to this franchise, is that hollow Nostalgia Baiting sells very well.

In the same vein, why are you complaining that modern manga sucks when it's actually selling?!

- Torishima thinks only Japanese people can make manga.
- He specifically laughed at Kodansha's worldwide manga contest.

He sounds like a lovely person worthy of respect and totally not a massive racist piece of /s
Funny he mentions Osamu Tezuka when that man started the whole manga industry by making Disney-inspired comics.

- Battle of Gods came out due to a promise Torishima made to his dying best friend: "If I somehow survive, let's make a Dragon Ball movie."
- Torishima thought the first draft of Battle of Gods sucked. So Toei asked Toriyama, who wrote the current version of the movie.

That's actually pretty sad, and puts my entire perspective of the movie into question.
However, I do wonder if it sucked that much considering Torishima usually hates anything that isn't braindead hollow shit made strictly by Japanese people and strictly for kids, if this whole interview is anything to go by.

TL;DR: "Old man yells at cloud."
I shouldn't be surprised that this is the man people refer to when they insist Dragon Ball is simple by design whenever someone finds something worthy of being criticized about it.

[The Dark Knight]

He sounds like a lovely person worthy of respect and totally not a massive racist piece of /s

I really don't think he meant Japanese people are better than other nationalities, but rather the art of making manga is deeply connected to Japanese history and culture. Anyone can draw a black and white comic, but that won't automatically make it a manga; that's what I think he meant. There are certain aspects of manga that only people who grew up in and understand Japan will be familiar with. Anyone can write (insert language here) poetry, but only people of that background will be able to produce something that's truly part of their culture, language, and history.

[Kenji]

He sounds like a lovely person worthy of respect and totally not a massive racist piece of /s

I really don't think he meant Japanese people are better than other nationalities, but rather the art of making manga is deeply connected to Japanese history and culture. Anyone can draw a black and white comic, but that won't automatically make it a manga; that's what I think he meant. There are certain aspects of manga that only people who grew up in and understand Japan will be familiar with. Anyone can write (insert language here) poetry, but only people of that background will be able to produce something that's truly part of their culture, language, and history.

Obviously, manga made by someone as part of that culture will have a deeper understanding of it.
However, it's also true that manga and several other products made in Japan are heavily inspired on Western culture.
Again, Osamu Tezuka started out by making a Bambi manga.
Silent Hill and Resident Evil are Japanese games set in America.

And if we're following his advice, then the entire manga & anime industry as we know should never even have existed in the first place, because Kimba the White Lion is a massive racist trainwreck made by a Japanese man (again, Osamu Tezuka) with no understanding of African culture.

It's also worth noting there is no "anime" in Japan, it simply is a word that means animation. In Japan, both Dragon Ball and Bambi are anime. Saying "manga shouldn't be drawn by anyone other than the Japanese" has the same connotation as "animation should not be made by anyone other than Disney."

Art should be made to inspire others, and gatekeeping it based on nationality should be reprimanded.

[Doctor Seaweed Roll]

He sounds like a lovely person worthy of respect and totally not a massive racist piece of /s

I really don't think he meant Japanese people are better than other nationalities, but rather the art of making manga is deeply connected to Japanese history and culture. Anyone can draw a black and white comic, but that won't automatically make it a manga; that's what I think he meant. There are certain aspects of manga that only people who grew up in and understand Japan will be familiar with. Anyone can write (insert language here) poetry, but only people of that background will be able to produce something that's truly part of their culture, language, and history.

Obviously, manga made by someone as part of that culture will have a deeper understanding of it.
However, it's also true that manga and several other products made in Japan are heavily inspired on Western culture.
Again, Osamu Tezuka started out by making a Bambi manga.
Silent Hill and Resident Evil are Japanese games set in America.

And if we're following his advice, then the entire manga & anime industry as we know should never even have existed in the first place, because Kimba the White Lion is a massive racist trainwreck made by a Japanese man (again, Osamu Tezuka) with no understanding of African culture.

It's also worth noting there is no "anime" in Japan, it simply is a word that means animation. In Japan, both Dragon Ball and Bambi are anime. Saying "manga shouldn't be drawn by anyone other than the Japanese" has the same connotation as "animation should not be made by anyone other than Disney."

Art should be made to inspire others, and gatekeeping it based on nationality should be reprimanded.

Actually Tezuka made a series called Mah-Chan's Diary in 1946
https://tezukaosamu.net/en/manga/459.html
But even if you don't count newspaper comics as manga he also made New Treasure Island which was sold as a book & had over 300,000 copies sold
https://tezukaosamu.net/en/manga/207.html

[Yellow Flower King]

I didn't take any photos as it's often restricted or discouraged. But I have a summary of what Torishima said throughout the interview. He has some interesting, refreshingly blunt takes about the current state of the industry and doesn't mince words.



- He was strongly against making Goku an adult. He was seriously worried it would kill DB's sales.
- He hated how Toei handled the Piccolo Daimao fight. The team was the same one from Dr. Slump who are great at comedy but sucks at fight scenes. This was one of the low points.
- Because of that mess, they decided to rebrand the franchise with Dragon Ball Z and bring in a new team.
- The team who worked on Z is the same one that worked on Saint Seiya.
- Torishima considers these two moments the toughest in Dragon Ball's entire history.
- The actual reason it's called Z is because Toriyama thought Z was the last letter of the alphabet, so nothing more would come out after it.
- When DB ended, the manga industry crashed down. According to him, GT was made because otherwise half the industry would lose their jobs.
- Battle of Gods came out due to a promise Torishima made to his dying best friend: "If I somehow survive, let's make a Dragon Ball movie."
- Torishima thought the first draft of Battle of Gods sucked. So Toei asked Toriyama, who wrote the current version of the movie.
- On the subject of Dragon Ball Daima, Torishima made it no secret to express his disdain and said: "Daima is shit. Everyone at Toei hates me. Daima betrays Dragon Ball; it's slow, stupid and the first episode is useless. I have no idea how it was approved in the first place."
- Torishima thinks old manga are much better than modern manga.
- Torishima says today's manga suck because they rarely take the actual print into account. They don't take into consideration the two pages of a spread and he blames smartphones for it.
- Torishima also criticized modern manga heavily. He says most current series are overloaded with narration and explanations. A proper manga page should be readable in just 3 seconds, echoing the philosophy of the Father of Manga, Osamu Tezuka.
- According to Torishima, Weekly Shonen Jump (and manga in general) became much wordier as the readership aged. Mangaka began writing for adults instead of kids, changing the whole style.
- He thinks One Piece sucks because it's no longer really a manga for kids due to that.
- He thinks One Piece became famous thanks to Luffy being an extremely relatable protagonist.
- He claims Oda was smart in introducing even more relatable protagonists, and singled out Zoro, Nami and Usopp for being amazing characters. Especially Usopp for being the most normal.
- He calls Oda a massive comic/manga nerd with a genuine passion for the medium.
- He doesn't consider being a huge manga fan a good trait.
- He says the big difference between OP and DB is that Oda is too in love with manga and his own story, while Toriyama hated drawing manga.
- According to Torishima, Toriyama hated manga, so he made them as synthetized as possible. But that's exactly why Dragon Ball became such a masterpiece: anyone can read it easily. One Piece, on the other hand, is too heavy and unapproachable to kids.
- Torishima doesn't think there's a single good manga today.
- He called Jujutsu Kaisen, Demon Slayer and especially Chainsaw Man crap.
- He also dislikes Blue Lock.
- He thinks Hirayasumi is the only modern manga worth reading and considers Touch one of the best manga ever made
- Torishima complimented the interviewer for talking about the kishotenketsu story structure.
- He thought Naruto was very good at the start. He wanted Masashi Kishimoto to kill off Sasuke and keep Kakashi dead.
- He thinks Pain was the last good Naruto arc.
- Torishima thinks modern manga has two problems: 1.) Manga is written by adults for adults, making them too wordy and unappealing to kids. 2.) Manga is too expensive for kids.
- He says this cycle must stop because if kids aren't reading today, there won't be mangaka tomorrow.
- Torishima thinks only Japanese people can make manga.
- He specifically laughed at Kodansha's worldwide manga contest.
- Torishima told the interviewer about a "secret announcement" that he can't disclose yet.
- Finally, when Toriyama died, Torishima felt the need to come out of retirement and tell the world about his late friend and Dragon Ball. This is why he started going to conventions more often.

You can find the original thread on my Twitter.
https://twitter.com/XMathemagicianX/sta ... 6143386716

I really dont get what was wrong with the Piccolo Daimao fight, especially the episode he dies. I dont get what was so comedic that he hated it? The only thing bad or cutesy about it was some of the music after he died. But otherwise the Daimao was extremely bleak in the anime, it wasnt the cutesy Dr Slump laugh fest he insists it was. The only thing that changed was that Z was a bit less prone to Dr Slump esque humor but it still had humor and cutesy music.

[Yuji]

"When DB ended, the manga industry crashed down. According to him, GT was made because otherwise half the industry would lose their jobs."

I wonder how true this is.

Anyway, I like his comment that manga is made by manga fans rather than actual artists. I also agree that a lot of manga are too wordy and are essentially too melodramatic or serious because they're trying to appeal to older demographics. In spite of some off the mark remarks and the clear bitter old man persona, there are some things I echo.

[Yellow Flower King]

"When DB ended, the manga industry crashed down. According to him, GT was made because otherwise half the industry would lose their jobs."

I wonder how true this is.

Anyway, I like his comment that manga is made by manga fans rather than actual artists. I also agree that a lot of manga are too wordy and are essentially too melodramatic or serious because they're trying to appeal to older demographics. In spite of some off the mark remarks and the clear bitter old man persona, there are some things I echo.

It is, because lots of veteran seiyuu were in it and they had secure jobs for 10 years up to that point.

[JulieYBM]

The problem with Torishima's remarks in regards to 'modern manga' is that it just comes across as him viewing commercial art through that commercial lens and not through an artistic one. He worked in selling magazines for kids and he had his own restrictive view on how that would operate. It basically invalidates his views, especially given the broad wording used to describe these points.

The guy might agree with me on, say, Dragon Ball Daima not being gold, but he's very clearly stumbling onto that position, rather than really having a reliably strong view about the creation of art.

At the same time, the things being said are so broad that they're nearly impossible to engage with. Reading this summary is just one big "That sure is a thing being said!" There’s no depth, just strawmanning. It's frustrating to read, honestly.

[Izanagi]

The problem with Torishima's remarks in regards to 'modern manga' is that it just comes across as him viewing commercial art through that commercial lens and not through an artistic one. He worked in selling magazines for kids and he had his own restrictive view on how that would operate. It basically invalidates his views, especially given the broad wording used to describe these points.

The guy might agree with me on, say, Dragon Ball Daima not being gold, but he's very clearly stumbling onto that position, rather than really having a reliably strong view about the creation of art.

At the same time, the things being said are so broad that they're nearly impossible to engage with. Reading this summary is just one big "That sure is a thing being said!" There’s no depth, just strawmanning. It's frustrating to read, honestly.

I get where you're coming from. Torishima speaks from a very commercial/editorial perspective shaped by decades at Weekly Shonen Jump. To him, manga is a means to an end and his job was to sell magazines to kids every week, so his lens is inherently market-driven rather than purely artistic. That said, I don't think Torishima treats it purely as a disposable tool for profit or jobs. If anything, he comes across as a very pragmatic, results-oriented editor with a deep (if sometimes blunt and cynical) investment in the craft and long-term health of manga as a popular medium, especially for kids. I also don't think it completely invalidates his observations, especially on the Dragon Ball stuff he was directly involved in.

From the Comicon Napoli talk, a lot of his comments weren't vague "modern manga is bad" complaints. He gave pretty specific examples from working with Toriyama:
- How Toriyama wanted to age up Goku because he couldn't draw dynamic fights with a kid's proportions anymore.
- The shift in linework and detail level between kid and adult Goku.
- Learning faster drawing techniques from animator Toyoo Ashida.
- The early anime staff treating Dragon Ball like Dr. Slump (which he fought against).
- The need for the Saint Seiya team to fix the action direction.

On Daima, he wasn't just stumbling into criticism. He specifically said even brilliant creators like Toriyama still need strong external pushback and a critical editorial eye, something he feels was missing because the current staff tended to idolize Toriyama instead of challenging him. Whether we agree with his conclusion or not, it's a consistent editor's philosophy he's applied since the 80s. I agree his broader comments on current manga can sound sweeping and are harder to engage with (such as him once stating Attack on Titan made a lot of noise, but lacks long-term appeal). But on the Dragon Ball side (which was the focus of the panel), he was mostly sharing concrete behind the scenes history rather than grand artistic declarations.

[Kenji]

Actually Tezuka made a series called Mah-Chan's Diary in 1946
https://tezukaosamu.net/en/manga/459.html
But even if you don't count newspaper comics as manga he also made New Treasure Island which was sold as a book & had over 300,000 copies sold
https://tezukaosamu.net/en/manga/207.html

OK, the point?

Much of Tezuka's style is still based on Disney.
American comics and animation inspired him to make his own, so he did.
Others including Toriyama were then influenced by Tezuka, who proceeded to make their own stuff based on him.

That's how art works.
An American can easily be inspired by Dragon Ball and make their own stuff based on it, I'm sure it happened already.
Kenny Ruiz, a Spanish illustrator, was influenced by Tezuka and made his own manga based on his work, Team Phoenix.
There is a Kimba the White Lion remake in development made by N-LITE and AFRIME, with actual African people involved.

Now who the fuck is Torishima to say these ain't "real manga/anime" just because those involved aren't Japanese?
That shows how narrow-minded the man is and how he doesn't understand how art works.

[Yellow Flower King]

One thing I do want to defend one of his points is that Dragon Ball IS for kids, but it doesnt baby them either, he was insistent on preserving and respecting Dragon Ball's increasingly serious tone. It is a really serious and dark show but its still for kids. He acknowledges kids CAN handle dark themes even if he still prefers things to be simpler. This is NOT "Dragon Ball is a serious and edgy badass show for hardcore 36 year old reddit users" but it is somewhat meaty and fullfilling that even an adult can enjoy.

[CodeOfMe]

Very neat to see. While a lot of these tidbits were already disclosed back in his Forbes interview, there are a few new ones which are interesting to hear--for one, I don't recall ever hearing about Torishima being so involved in Battle of Gods' production: the way he phrases it, it makes it sound like he was the one to pitch the idea.

I still don't understand his qualms with the Goku killing Piccolo scene from the original; it isn't portrayed as comedic in the slightest, though you might be able to construe that his problems were less with intentional comedy and more unintentional? The scene, as is wont for the series, is stretched out (though not to the point of tedium) and I could see how the cuts between two yelling characters as they near each other could come off as dopey.

"Toriyama was only good because he hated manga." You sure, Torishima? 100%? For some reason, I find both ideas ("Toriyama only being good because of such-and-such" + "Toriyama hated manga") doubtful.

I disagree with many of Torishima's opinions, but I almost have to respect how brazen he is. He says some things with such confidence, it's honestly inspiring. I'm pretty sure a part of it is just outrage farming/ragebaiting, in any case--Torishima's way of getting publicity--but still.

I do agree with his takes on Daima, though: about it being slow and having a needless first episode. But then again, considering Torishima's statements about Dragon Ball being mindless entertainment, I'm not sure he would have done it any better had he been involved. Then again again, if what he says about ordering a new script for BoG is true, maybe he does have an eye for quality, even if some of his views are... out there, to say the least.

[Yellow Flower King]

It helps that while he's extremely negative, he does give credit where credit is due. And while he is a boomer and thus has a lot of "Kids stuff is shit!" opinions he's not entirely bad. Like some of his favorite manga was shojo, he loved The Heart of Thomas and Kaze to Ki no Uta (The Poem of Wind and Trees) which I dont see a MAGA esque guy do ever.

[jjgp1112]

All Imma say is it's a reason Torishima got to the position he's in. I don't completely agree with his assessment of Daima but the comments are certainly in the right neighborhood of the root issue.

I also don't agree with his One Piece opinion (aside from the horrendously cluttered panels) but again...he's in the right territory. There always is something to be said for someone being too much of a fan and deep into the sauce vs. an outsider perspective bringing a fresher approach.

[jjgp1112]

The problem with Torishima's remarks in regards to 'modern manga' is that it just comes across as him viewing commercial art through that commercial lens and not through an artistic one. He worked in selling magazines for kids and he had his own restrictive view on how that would operate. It basically invalidates his views, especially given the broad wording used to describe these points.

The guy might agree with me on, say, Dragon Ball Daima not being gold, but he's very clearly stumbling onto that position, rather than really having a reliably strong view about the creation of art.

At the same time, the things being said are so broad that they're nearly impossible to engage with. Reading this summary is just one big "That sure is a thing being said!" There’s no depth, just strawmanning. It's frustrating to read, honestly.

I get where you're coming from. Torishima speaks from a very commercial/editorial perspective shaped by decades at Weekly Shonen Jump. To him, manga is a means to an end and his job was to sell magazines to kids every week, so his lens is inherently market-driven rather than purely artistic. That said, I don't think Torishima treats it purely as a disposable tool for profit or jobs. If anything, he comes across as a very pragmatic, results-oriented editor with a deep (if sometimes blunt and cynical) investment in the craft and long-term health of manga as a popular medium, especially for kids. I also don't think it completely invalidates his observations, especially on the Dragon Ball stuff he was directly involved in.

From the Comicon Napoli talk, a lot of his comments weren't vague "modern manga is bad" complaints. He gave pretty specific examples from working with Toriyama:
- How Toriyama wanted to age up Goku because he couldn't draw dynamic fights with a kid's proportions anymore.
- The shift in linework and detail level between kid and adult Goku.
- Learning faster drawing techniques from animator Toyoo Ashida.
- The early anime staff treating Dragon Ball like Dr. Slump (which he fought against).
- The need for the Saint Seiya team to fix the action direction.

On Daima, he wasn't just stumbling into criticism. He specifically said even brilliant creators like Toriyama still need strong external pushback and a critical editorial eye, something he feels was missing because the current staff tended to idolize Toriyama instead of challenging him. Whether we agree with his conclusion or not, it's a consistent editor's philosophy he's applied since the 80s. I agree his broader comments on current manga can sound sweeping and are harder to engage with (such as him once stating Attack on Titan made a lot of noise, but lacks long-term appeal). But on the Dragon Ball side (which was the focus of the panel), he was mostly sharing concrete behind the scenes history rather than grand artistic declarations.

That's exactly what i took away from it, too. Making work that sells and has an impact is a combination of strong, compelling creative and approachablity, not simply just making slop that appeals to the lowest common denominator.

Torishima comes from the old school capitalist perspective of "Good work sells itself and there's a tried and true formula to it." It's a chicken-and-egg type of situation that, while I entirely agree with, it's a lot better than today's enshittification approach. But it's the type of thing that the ad industry used to run on, diving into the minds of consumers, figuring out what they like and dislike, insecurities and aspirations and making things that seek directly towards them. "It sells because it's good and it's good because it sells" essentially.

Actually Tezuka made a series called Mah-Chan's Diary in 1946
https://tezukaosamu.net/en/manga/459.html
But even if you don't count newspaper comics as manga he also made New Treasure Island which was sold as a book & had over 300,000 copies sold
https://tezukaosamu.net/en/manga/207.html

OK, the point?

Much of Tezuka's style is still based on Disney.
American comics and animation inspired him to make his own, so he did.
Others including Toriyama were then influenced by Tezuka, who proceeded to make their own stuff based on him.

That's how art works.
An American can easily be inspired by Dragon Ball and make their own stuff based on it, I'm sure it happened already.
Kenny Ruiz, a Spanish illustrator, was influenced by Tezuka and made his own manga based on his work, Team Phoenix.
There is a Kimba the White Lion remake in development made by N-LITE and AFRIME, with actual African people involved.

Now who the fuck is Torishima to say these ain't "real manga/anime" just because those involved aren't Japanese?
That shows how narrow-minded the man is and how he doesn't understand how art works.

WHat you're not seeing is that Torishima is speaking specifically to what appeals to Japanese readers. His thinking is basically that an outsider can never truly make something that identifies with Japanese culture; Even thogh manga of the past have western influences, at the end of the day they're still chock full of Japanese cultural sensibilities by virtue of being from the mind of people who grew up in the country.

It's the same reason a Jack Harlow neo-soul album is hilariously bad.

Is it an insular, isolationist perspective? Yeah. But Japan is an insular, isolationist country lmao.

[Doctor Seaweed Roll]

Actually Tezuka made a series called Mah-Chan's Diary in 1946
https://tezukaosamu.net/en/manga/459.html
But even if you don't count newspaper comics as manga he also made New Treasure Island which was sold as a book & had over 300,000 copies sold
https://tezukaosamu.net/en/manga/207.html

OK, the point?

Much of Tezuka's style is still based on Disney.
American comics and animation inspired him to make his own, so he did.
Others including Toriyama were then influenced by Tezuka, who proceeded to make their own stuff based on him.

That's how art works.
An American can easily be inspired by Dragon Ball and make their own stuff based on it, I'm sure it happened already.
Kenny Ruiz, a Spanish illustrator, was influenced by Tezuka and made his own manga based on his work, Team Phoenix.
There is a Kimba the White Lion remake in development made by N-LITE and AFRIME, with actual African people involved.

Now who the fuck is Torishima to say these ain't "real manga/anime" just because those involved aren't Japanese?
That shows how narrow-minded the man is and how he doesn't understand how art works.

I forgot i was on a dragon ball forum & not on the Tezuka forum that i'm a member of