Summary of Kazuhiko Torishima's Book

[Yellow Flower King]

You are getting this backwards it was the editors that insisted on changing the villains all the time. You seem to assume Toriyama was a maverick writer that ignored what his sensible editors adviced him to do but this was brought on by their decisions. I know Toriyama has shown he really does need editors to reign him in but this time it was the editors who got this story arc to be so messy.

OK, so both Toriyama and his editors sucked, happy? lol

It actually doesn't matter who made the decision to change villains, it's ultimately Toriyama who structured and wrote how that change was going to happen. For the record, I really don't mind the shifts from #19 and #20 to #17 and #18, I think it's done well. It adds conflict, mystery and consequence to the story.

But then, I'm supposed to believe there is a whole 'nother villain secret project after the whole 'nother villain secret project after the whole 'nother villain secret project who requires an entire round of mental gymnastics for him to fit in the story? Yeah, no. Toiryama could've simply declined Torishima's request and said "Fuck you, #17 and #18 are the villains now and they're here to stay", especially when Torishima was no longer his editor, but Toriyama still obliged anyway knowing his story would suffer.

I honestly just objected that Toriyama was to blame in this instance but yeah I am happy you corrected and that both Toriyama and his editors suck. LOL. :3

[jjgp1112]

Back int he 80s and 90s, he was just another writer, he wasn't "Toriyama Sensei", so editors and the anime's producers weren't under nay pressure to blindly follow him, which resulted in them either requesting changes to be made to the story (his editors) or changing it/expanding it themselves (the anime's staff).

That's an exaggeration.
After Torishima left, Toriyama received increasingly more lenient editors, to the point Torishima had to call him personally and ask him to change the villains of the Cell Saga twice. By the Boo Saga, Toriyama's editors were practically non-existent, as they admittedly knew that was the last arc and did everything they could so he could write whatever he wanted comfortably.

Yuu Kondo played a pretty nstrumental role in the directions of the Saiyan, Frieza, and Android sagas and Toriyama gave him and his Shojo background a lot of credit for the series hitting that upper echelon in popularity

[jjgp1112]

You are getting this backwards it was the editors that insisted on changing the villains all the time. You seem to assume Toriyama was a maverick writer that ignored what his sensible editors adviced him to do but this was brought on by their decisions. I know Toriyama has shown he really does need editors to reign him in but this time it was the editors who got this story arc to be so messy.

OK, so both Toriyama and his editors sucked, happy? lol

It actually doesn't matter who made the decision to change villains, it's ultimately Toriyama who structured and wrote how that change was going to happen. For the record, I really don't mind the shifts from #19 and #20 to #17 and #18, I think it's done well. It adds conflict, mystery and consequence to the story.

But then, I'm supposed to believe there is a whole 'nother villain secret project after the whole 'nother villain secret project after the whole 'nother villain secret project who requires an entire round of mental gymnastics for him to fit in the story? Yeah, no. Toiryama could've simply declined Torishima's request and said "Fuck you, #17 and #18 are the villains now and they're here to stay", especially when Torishima was no longer his editor, but Toriyama still obliged anyway knowing his story would suffer.

Do you really think Toriyama would heed the advice of somebody he technically didn't have to listen to anymore if he didnt in some way agree that maybe these villains weren't really working? He didnt "know his story would suffer," he was trying to make it better in the face of bad feedback from somebody he respected. And on top of that his editor was aligned. All creative decisions, good and bad, happen under an editor's watch, so just because there were some you didnt agree with doesnt mean the editors were too lenient. That goes for the Frieza saga dragging in your opinopn, too. Nobody's saying editors are infallible, just that they tend to get it right more than most, given that it's their job to know what works. And considering the portion of the Frieza arc that dragged was probably also one ofbthe best received parts by the fandom at large and that Cell is a well received villain...I think Kondo and Torishima's abilities speak for themselves.

[Kenji]

And considering the portion of the Frieza arc that dragged was probably also one ofbthe best received parts by the fandom at large and that Cell is a well received villain...I think Kondo and Torishima's abilities speak for themselves.

They absolutely have experience in getting things popular and making them sell, I won't deny that.
However, not always what is popular is what I'd call artistic or enjoyable, despite what the majority would say.
Freeza, Cell and Boo remain three of the biggest low points of the franchise IMHO (before the revival era).
But again, that's just my opinion and I digress.

[Yellow Flower King]

You are getting this backwards it was the editors that insisted on changing the villains all the time. You seem to assume Toriyama was a maverick writer that ignored what his sensible editors adviced him to do but this was brought on by their decisions. I know Toriyama has shown he really does need editors to reign him in but this time it was the editors who got this story arc to be so messy.

OK, so both Toriyama and his editors sucked, happy? lol

It actually doesn't matter who made the decision to change villains, it's ultimately Toriyama who structured and wrote how that change was going to happen. For the record, I really don't mind the shifts from #19 and #20 to #17 and #18, I think it's done well. It adds conflict, mystery and consequence to the story.

But then, I'm supposed to believe there is a whole 'nother villain secret project after the whole 'nother villain secret project after the whole 'nother villain secret project who requires an entire round of mental gymnastics for him to fit in the story? Yeah, no. Toiryama could've simply declined Torishima's request and said "Fuck you, #17 and #18 are the villains now and they're here to stay", especially when Torishima was no longer his editor, but Toriyama still obliged anyway knowing his story would suffer.

Do you really think Toriyama would heed the advice of somebody he technically didn't have to listen to anymore if he didnt in some way agree that maybe these villains weren't really working? He didnt "know his story would suffer," he was trying to make it better in the face of bad feedback from somebody he respected. And on top of that his editor was aligned. All creative decisions, good and bad, happen under an editor's watch, so just because there were some you didnt agree with doesnt mean the editors were too lenient. That goes for the Frieza saga dragging in your opinopn, too. Nobody's saying editors are infallible, just that they tend to get it right more than most, given that it's their job to know what works. And considering the portion of the Frieza arc that dragged was probably also one ofbthe best received parts by the fandom at large and that Cell is a well received villain...I think Kondo and Torishima's abilities speak for themselves.

I agree but I would change bad feedback to negative feedback because bad feedback is BAD ADVICE. BAD CRITICISM. Not negative but good advice/criticism.

[GhostEmperorX]

Freeza, Cell and Boo remain three of the biggest low points of the franchise IMHO (before the revival era).

Plus they just so happen to be within the drag-on portion of the anime.

[LoganForkHands73]

Really interesting that Torishima acknowledges he was catastrophically wrong about One Piece. While he undeniably has refined instincts from his years as an editor, I think his one weakness is his underestimation of the shonen audience's intelligence. This goes back to his comments about Dragon Ball has no meaning and his (IIRC) belief that Goku and Bulma should get together simply because they’re the main male and female protagonists. Kids love super dense stories with tonnes of characters and lore to figure out. Regardless of my feelings about One Piece (mostly a confusing mix of slight distaste and distant respect), it's undeniably a manga that gave readers an enormously rich world to sink their teeth into.

The support and appreciation of Toriyama's unique "uneri" is also really wholesome. That is something that's lacking from nearly every other piece of Dragon Ball media and especially most fan fiction. It's all too pre-planned. Toyotaro got a taste of that in the two original arcs of the Super manga and it feels like he didn't flourish nearly as much under similar conditions to Toriyama, but not nearly as harsh, resulting in some long meandering segments with unsatisfying payoff. Some blame for that can almost certainly be levied at Victory Uchida's lax approach.

[Mr Baggins]

^ That's also why I tend to call Toriyama a master of improvisation. His ability to write on the fly while keeping the story entertaining and purposeful is second to none in his craft. Other shonen mangaka have tried it, and it typically never works out.

I'm still curious as to whether there was any actual editorial involvement for most of his post-DB series. Jaco the Galactic Patrolman is the only one I know of that even had an editor, whereas others, it seems, either had none or those editors went uncredited. Kanzenshuu also notes there's little info on it.

A lot of that material was some of his best work, in my view.