“What if they were the same person?”

[L3anD3RStar]

I apologize if this doesn’t warrent a new thread, but it’s a rough idea I’ve been unable to get out of my head. Someone tell me how stupid these “What ifs” are?

Because I had a stupid thought about what if, what if, what if these characters were actually the same person? What if you did that thing adapters do sometimes and took two characters who get limited screen time, and combined them into one character who gets more screen time?

And then I thought, what characters would I combine? And I found…. What if these heroes and villains were the same? And roles changed as the storylines progressed?

Like, what if Sister Baba and Bibidi were the same person? How would that work? Well, Sister Baba would’ve brought Goku back on purpose so he could get his energy stolen and speed up the resurrection of Buu. But how would that change how they dealt with her? How would Roshi react?

What if Zamasu and Kaioshin were the same person? And Kaioshin has helped our heroes, rather ineptly, but he’s been trying. But the more he fails, the more frustrated he gets at his own limitations, and the more he sees of mortal brutality up close and personal, the less he thinks they deserve to exist at all. His unrequited and deeply confusing horniness for Goku’s literal body makes this much worse. He can’t stop thinking about how if he had that much power, how different things would be. And after he hits his breaking point, Beerus would have a reason why he couldn’t actually do anything that’s a bit more substantial then “its none of my fukkin business.” He literally can’t raise a finger against the guy he’s life linked to, and neither can anyone else unless they want to kill him too. How would they handle the situation?

And that got me “betrayal” as a big theme in these combinations. So here’s a more personal one - Mai and Violet are the same person. Mai dyed her hair and wore a wig when she was in the Red Ribbon Army, both of her parents were soldiers, when she was 18 Red told her the army needed an heir and lucky girl, she’s been selected for this important task. Never occurs to her to question the propriety of this. It’s just another job. She does it, never sees the child after the birth, and eventually runs away from the army, joining Pilaf and getting a second chance at life thanks to becoming a kid again. But then Magenta pops up and she knows who he is. Even though she’s physically much younger than him now. What, if anything, does she tell anyone? Or does she resolve to take the secret to her grave? Think that’s even possible? She’d kill to keep Trunks from finding out, but what if he finds out anyway? What would he do?

And that led to my darkest what if, where the heart virus that killed Goku wasn’t natural, it was a bio weapon developed by Dr. Briefs as a fail safe for when the Saiyans arrived. It accidentally leaks and kills Bulma’s best friend, and that’s why Dr Briefs isn’t in Future Trunks’s timeline. Bulma couldn’t forgive him.


…. I’m just making all of this bullshee up. I’ll probably delete this later, I was just wondering what you thought. Besides that it’s cringy and sucks, because I know that, I just I mean, I should just delete this where’s the button

[vilker]

I apologize if this doesn’t warrent a new thread, but it’s a rough idea I’ve been unable to get out of my head. Someone tell me how stupid these “What ifs” are?

Because I had a stupid thought about what if, what if, what if these characters were actually the same person? What if you did that thing adapters do sometimes and took two characters who get limited screen time, and combined them into one character who gets more screen time?

And then I thought, what characters would I combine? And I found…. What if these heroes and villains were the same? And roles changed as the storylines progressed?

Like, what if Sister Baba and Bibidi were the same person? How would that work? Well, Sister Baba would’ve brought Goku back on purpose so he could get his energy stolen and speed up the resurrection of Buu. But how would that change how they dealt with her? How would Roshi react?

What if Zamasu and Kaioshin were the same person? And Kaioshin has helped our heroes, rather ineptly, but he’s been trying. But the more he fails, the more frustrated he gets at his own limitations, and the more he sees of mortal brutality up close and personal, the less he thinks they deserve to exist at all. His unrequited and deeply confusing horniness for Goku’s literal body makes this much worse. He can’t stop thinking about how if he had that much power, how different things would be. And after he hits his breaking point, Beerus would have a reason why he couldn’t actually do anything that’s a bit more substantial then “its none of my fukkin business.” He literally can’t raise a finger against the guy he’s life linked to, and neither can anyone else unless they want to kill him too. How would they handle the situation?

And that got me “betrayal” as a big theme in these combinations. So here’s a more personal one - Mai and Violet are the same person. Mai dyed her hair and wore a wig when she was in the Red Ribbon Army, both of her parents were soldiers, when she was 18 Red told her the army needed an heir and lucky girl, she’s been selected for this important task. Never occurs to her to question the propriety of this. It’s just another job. She does it, never sees the child after the birth, and eventually runs away from the army, joining Pilaf and getting a second chance at life thanks to becoming a kid again. But then Magenta pops up and she knows who he is. Even though she’s physically much younger than him now. What, if anything, does she tell anyone? Or does she resolve to take the secret to her grave? Think that’s even possible? She’d kill to keep Trunks from finding out, but what if he finds out anyway? What would he do?

And that led to my darkest what if, where the heart virus that killed Goku wasn’t natural, it was a bio weapon developed by Dr. Briefs as a fail safe for when the Saiyans arrived. It accidentally leaks and kills Bulma’s best friend, and that’s why Dr Briefs isn’t in Future Trunks’s timeline. Bulma couldn’t forgive him.


…. I’m just making all of this bullshee up. I’ll probably delete this later, I was just wondering what you thought. Besides that it’s cringy and sucks, because I know that, I just I mean, I should just delete this where’s the button

Don't delete this. Creativity comes from connecting dots that no one else sees, even if some of those dots don't perfectly align at first. Here is my honest, critical breakdown of your ideas (rated 0-100) and a "What If" of my own that I think fits your style of rewriting character motivations without changing the scenes.

Your Ideas: A Critical Review
1. Baba and Bibidi are the same person (Score: 15/100)
I have to be honest—this one is the weakest. It feels forced. Chronologically, it’s a mess (Bibidi is ancient), and it breaks the necessary comedic/mystical dynamic Baba brings to the original series. It adds confusion rather than depth.

2. Zamasu and Shin (Supreme Kai) are the same person (Score: 90/100)
This is brilliant. It fixes one of Dragon Ball Super’s biggest flaws: Shin being useless and Zamasu appearing out of nowhere. If Shin were the one slowly descending into madness because he realizes his peaceful methods and reliance on mortals (Goku) are failing, the emotional payoff would be incredible. The final battle wouldn't be against a generic villain, but against a fallen friend. Plus, the life-link with Beerus perfectly explains why Beerus couldn't just "Hakai" him immediately. A massive missed opportunity by Toriyama.

3. Mai and Violet are the same person (Score: 50/100)
It’s an interesting backstory that adds flavor to Mai, but it feels a bit like a soap opera twist. It complicates the timeline without raising the stakes enough to matter to the main plot.

4. Dr. Briefs and the Heart Virus (Score: 85/100)
This is incredibly dark, perhaps too dark for standard DB, but narrative-wise? It makes sense. It turns a random natural death (the virus) into a direct consequence of "preventative xenophobia." It adds a layer of macabre tragedy to Bulma’s life that is fascinating.



My "What If": Android 16 IS Dr. Gero’s Son (Gevo)
You asked for an example where characters are combined, roles change, but the scenes remain the same. Here is one that changes nothing visually but alters the entire subtext of the Android Saga from an action movie to a Greek Tragedy.

The Canon Fact:
We know Android 16 was modeled visually after Gero’s dead son, Gevo, who died in the Red Ribbon Army. Gero made him "gentle" because he didn't want his creation to be destroyed in battle.

The "What If":
Dr. Gero didn’t just copy his son’s face. Dr. Gero successfully digitized his dying son’s brain patterns and memories, uploading them into the mechanical brain of 16.

He isn't a human with a soul (he can't be resurrected), but he is a perfect "Digital Ghost" trapped in a machine, burdened with the memories of a dead man.

Why this changes everything (viability 98/100):

The Origin of the Grudge:
In this version, Gevo was a gentle soul drafted into the Red Ribbon Army against his will. When Kid Goku attacked, Gevo didn't die fighting bravely. He died because he refused to fight. He hesitated to pull the trigger on a child, and that hesitation got him killed in the chaos.

Dr. Gero’s "Glitch":
When 17 and 18 try to wake 16 up, Gero screams in genuine panic, "Do not do it!"

Standard View: He’s afraid 16 is buggy.

The "What If" View: He is a traumatized father. He knows that if they wake 16 up, his son will be forced back into the violence that already killed him once. Gero isn't protecting his "invention"; he is desperately trying to stop his son from dying a second time.

The Message to Gohan (The Parallel):
This fixes the criticism of "Why does Gohan snap over a robot he barely knows?"
If 16 has Gevo's memories, he sees himself in Gohan. He sees another gentle boy paralyzed by the fear of violence.
When 16 tells Gohan to fight, he isn't saying "violence is good." He is saying: "I died because I did nothing. My absolute pacifism didn't save me, it just made me a victim. Don't make my mistake."

When Cell crushes 16's head, Gohan realizes that refusing to act isn't noble—it's suicide. He isn't crying for circuits; he is crying because he understands the lesson of the boy who died twice.

It makes the story infinitely more tragic without changing a single frame of the animation.

[dbgtFO]

I apologize if this doesn’t warrent a new thread, but it’s a rough idea I’ve been unable to get out of my head. Someone tell me how stupid these “What ifs” are?

The Message to Gohan (The Parallel):
This fixes the criticism of "Why does Gohan snap over a robot he barely knows?"
If 16 has Gevo's memories, he sees himself in Gohan. He sees another gentle boy paralyzed by the fear of violence.
When 16 tells Gohan to fight, he isn't saying "violence is good." He is saying: "I died because I did nothing. My absolute pacifism didn't save me, it just made me a victim. Don't make my mistake."

When Cell crushes 16's head, Gohan realizes that refusing to act isn't noble—it's suicide. He isn't crying for circuits; he is crying because he understands the lesson of the boy who died twice.

It makes the story infinitely more tragic without changing a single frame of the animation.

Oh shit! Now THAT is an excellent way of justifying this scene!!

[SylentEcho]

If 16 has Gevo's memories, he sees himself in Gohan. He sees another gentle boy paralyzed by the fear of violence.
When 16 tells Gohan to fight, he isn't saying "violence is good." He is saying: "I died because I did nothing. My absolute pacifism didn't save me, it just made me a victim. Don't make my mistake."

When Cell crushes 16's head, Gohan realizes that refusing to act isn't noble—it's suicide. He isn't crying for circuits; he is crying because he understands the lesson of the boy who died twice.

Except, he did try to do something. He tried to blow himself up with Cell before discovering that the bomb had been removed. He also tried to fight until his head got damaged.

This is why I sometimes dislike DBZA, they added things that never needed to be there in the first place. The whole point of 16, was that despite being a robot, he found his heart. He went from being cold and only having Goku on his mind to appreciating nature and life on earth. He was merely showing Gohan that rage is justified in order to protect these things.

[vilker]

If 16 has Gevo's memories, he sees himself in Gohan. He sees another gentle boy paralyzed by the fear of violence.
When 16 tells Gohan to fight, he isn't saying "violence is good." He is saying: "I died because I did nothing. My absolute pacifism didn't save me, it just made me a victim. Don't make my mistake."

When Cell crushes 16's head, Gohan realizes that refusing to act isn't noble—it's suicide. He isn't crying for circuits; he is crying because he understands the lesson of the boy who died twice.

Except, he did try to do something. He tried to blow himself up with Cell before discovering that the bomb had been removed. He also tried to fight until his head got damaged.

This is why I sometimes dislike DBZA, they added things that never needed to be there in the first place. The whole point of 16, was that despite being a robot, he found his heart. He went from being cold and only having Goku on his mind to appreciating nature and life on earth. He was merely showing Gohan that rage is justified in order to protect these things.

I guess you misunderstood or didn't read the whole text. I was referring to the original human Gevo (Dr. Gero's son). He was the one who died his first death because he refused to act against a child.

He learned from that experience, which is why his android version fought to protect the world at the cost of his life.

My point was about him finally letting go of his grudge against Goku to advise his son. He told Gohan not to hold back and to destroy Cell to save humanity because he saw his younger, pacifist self reflected in him. Their souls connected in that moment because they were so similar, which makes his final advice much more powerful.

[SylentEcho]

I guess you misunderstood or didn't read the whole text. I was referring to the original human Gevo (Dr. Gero's son). He was the one who died his first death because he refused to act against a child.

He learned from that experience, which is why his android version fought to protect the world at the cost of his life.

My point was about him finally letting go of his grudge against Goku to advise his son. He told Gohan not to hold back and to destroy Cell to save humanity because he saw his younger, pacifist self reflected in him. Their souls connected in that moment because they were so similar, which makes his final advice much more powerful.

My bad. I haven't kept up with the manga since Black Freeza.

[L3anD3RStar]

Don't delete this. Creativity comes from connecting dots that no one else sees, even if some of those dots don't perfectly align at first. Here is my honest, critical breakdown of your ideas (rated 0-100) and a "What If" of my own that I think fits your style of rewriting character motivations without changing the scenes.



You may not believe this but I thanked you and wrote up a big response months ago, and then it got deleted when I tried to post it and I just never retyped it. So here it is again. I know this is late but I’m very thankful you took the time to read my nonsense so here’s my thoughts -

1. Baba and Bibidi are the same person (Score: 15/100)
I have to be honest—this one is the weakest. It feels forced. Chronologically, it’s a mess (Bibidi is ancient), and it breaks the necessary comedic/mystical dynamic Baba brings to the original series. It adds confusion rather than depth.



I agree it does mess with the tone. Baba is portrayed as a very silly and non-threatening character even when she’s making people fight and possibly die for her entertainment. Personally I think things like Babidi’s age is stuff you could change, especially if you tossed out the “Father Bibidi” stuff and made Buu an ancient evil he found out about in a book or something and wanted to take control of.



I confess part of it is thinking that Baba would be cooler if she was slightly more sinister. She does ride the line between life and death, and she’s pretty ambivalent to the pain of others. She’s motivated by money but I think that’s because Toriyama had one of two motives for female characters (1) A MAN (2) money. His one time experimenting with a female character who actually wanted to fight crime and liked martial arts ended in a tragedy that completely rewrote her personality to make her a generic headband-wearing housewife at the ripe old age of 18. 



I know this is an aside, but what was done to Vidal was fukkin awful. She used to run into burning buildings and kick armed criminals in the face. Now she makes soup and tries to claim she always wanted to be an academic’s arm candy. For a girl who was daughter of a world champion, grew up in a dojo, mastered Ki control in one lesson, and was flying within a day, its a heartbreaking downgrade. I don’t know why Toriyama was so uncomfortable with the character he’d created himself, but he needed to change her for the plot to continue, and that’s just not fair. It’ll never be fair. 



…I got distracted. This is about Baba. Another part of this is just kinda wanting to give Baba more to do, and learn more about what really makes her tick. I was thinking if her tournaments weren’t just for fun but were designed to harvest energy, that might explain a few things in retrospect, and helping Goku and friends for most of their lives would also make sense if she predicted that someday they’d grow strong enough to help her obtain her goal. And she would be able to predict that, if she can really see the future. 



It also closes a plot hole of why Baba didn’t see the resurrection of Buu and the death of all humanity coming, or why she would help Goku come back to Earth at all if she had any hint about what was going to happen at that tournament. She’s kind of so overpowered that the story has to just ignore her existence except when they need her to make plot happen. 

If she’s been working towards Buu all along, she could have a few reasons. Probably not world domination, but the death of all humanity would expand HER power quite a bit, as the one person who can bring souls back from the afterlife. She could be imagining she’d charge rich people for the chance to live again. For her this is just a long term business plan. 


I’ve typed quite a bit so I’m gonna break this up. Sorry for the spam. Thanks again for the response.

[L3anD3RStar]

2. Zamasu and Shin (Supreme Kai) are the same person (Score: 90/100)
This is brilliant. It fixes one of Dragon Ball Super’s biggest flaws: Shin being useless and Zamasu appearing out of nowhere. If Shin were the one slowly descending into madness because he realizes his peaceful methods and reliance on mortals (Goku) are failing, the emotional payoff would be incredible. The final battle wouldn't be against a generic villain, but against a fallen friend. Plus, the life-link with Beerus perfectly explains why Beerus couldn't just "Hakai" him immediately. A massive missed opportunity by Toriyama.

I’m so glad you like this one. I was watching Daima and digesting the common criticisms of Shin as a character who consistently fails to actually FEEL as important as we are told he is. He’s supposed to be a creator god but he never creates anything, or at least, never creates anything more impressive than some clothes and blocks of stone. He is constantly overwhelmed in every fight he’s ever been seen in. His omniscience is often too little too late, he shares the wrong information or forgets a key detail until after it’s not useful anymore.



I’m certain Zamasu wouldn’t have gone so insane if he just had something USEFUL to do. Instead, passive inaction and observation was presented to him as virtuous, and he kind of went stir crazy looking at a world he hated but felt powerless to change, at least as he was. 

I think it would be interesting to see his fall into a Zamasu-like desperation. He still sees himself as a virtuous god, he thinks he’s helping, he thinks this is his job. In my version I’d say he doesn’t think of the Zero Mortal Plan as a permanent thing, he’s trying to wipe out life so he can start it all over. And do it right this time. This could also be why he wants there to be two of him - one to destroy and one to create. The alpha and omega. 



of course, he can’t actually create. The Kaioshin don’t actually do that, or at least, not on a grand scale. The Glind only say they can as a way of justifying the their claim to godhood. But Shin himself might not know that. He might actually believe he can restore the world and make it better then before, if only has a blank slate to work from. Then, everybody in his new world will respect and praise their wise and powerful god for creating such a perfect world for them all to live in. 

And being confronted with the fact that what he’s doing actually can’t be undone might be what pushes him over the edge and makes him decide that everything, including himself, all of it needs to die. No price is too high to purge creation of the nightmare called Life. Life was a mistake.



Mix in some hurt ego about constantly needing to rely on mortals specifically Goku to do what he, a god, can’t, and maybe some general envy at the free lives full of friends and loved ones that mortals get to have but gods are always cut off from, a desire to be the most important person in the room for some reason besides just a title he doesn’t feel he ever really earned, and maybe some of Zamasu’s unspoken obsession with the beauty and power of Goku’s literal body, so superior to Shin’s own despite belonging to a filthy mortal…



Idk, I think you’ve got the makings of a tragic but terrifying villain there. How dare these mortals enjoy these powerful beautiful bodies. How dare they have friends and loved ones and families they would kill and die for. How dare they live lives according to their own values instead of being bound by holy laws. How dare they be capable of so much evil and so much good. How dare they defy all the god’s efforts to guide and control them. How dare they make a difference. 

I was inspired again by wanting to get more into Shin/Nahare as a character and make more juicy stuff for him to do. As well as solve some common problems with Zamasu’s rushed development. I’m like, if I was writing a feature film and I had 120 minutes to tell the entire Goku Black story, I think I’d introduce Zamasu as a friend first, someone our heroes know and trust, so that the truth of Black’s identity, when it’s revealed, actually has some weight to it. 




Sorry for the spam, I’ll cover number 3 in the next post, I dont want this to disappear on me again.

[Kid Buu]

How about Spopivich and Dabura? Gives more meaning to Gohan challenging him. Plus, it is a nice plot twist that Dabura purposely allowed Kaioshin and co. to follow him.

[L3anD3RStar]

After what Spopovich did, dying the way he did just to make Babidi look extra evil is messed up and unsatisfying on so many levels. I don’t know about replacing one for the other, but having Dabura possess Spopovich would be interesting.