Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[DanielSSJ]

The Freeza arc, done in the same format as last time.

Spoiler:

Like last time, most of these numbers are exactly what you'd expect from the manga and databooks, but there are a few deviations:

• Zarbon and Dodoria are knocked down a smidge from their official 22,000/23,000 powers to widen the gap between them and Vegeta.

• Gohan and Kuririn are likewise brought down from their 13,000/14,000 numbers to be a little closer to the "over 10,000" they're clocked in at in the manga.

• While Vegeta didn't look to be quite as strong as 1st from Freeza when they grappled, V-Jump putting him at 250,000 (only half Freeza's power) is patently ridiculous.

[DanielSSJ]

I finally completed my Battle Power Chart series, all the way to Boo (I'll be reposting the previous images here so they're all in one place). Let me know what you guys think!

Spoiler:

While I will take power levels that come from the databook rather than the manga into consideration, I won't hold myself to them if I think they contradict the story or something else fits better. With that in mind:

• Raditz drops to 1250 to be closer to the Saibaimen that are supposed to rival him.

• Kuririn and Tenshinhan drop to be closer to the 1500 that Kuririn was clocked at on Namek.

• Nappa is moved up to be closer to Goku's 8000, as fits his performance against Goku when he finally locks in.

• I took LightBing's feedback into account and pushed Chaozu up to be over 1000 to be a bit closer to the Saibaimen.

Spoiler:

• Zarbon and Dodoria are moved down a smidge to widen the gap between them and Vegeta.

• Gohan and Kuririn are moved down to be closer to the "over 10,000" they're clocked at in the manga

• Vegeta jumps from 250,000 all the way to 400,000 so that he's not completely outclassed by First Form Freeza.

Spoiler:

• I like to imagine the gap between Freeza and Trunks wasn't that large, and that the one-sidedness of the fight was partially due to Freeza's shock and panic, and Trunks not giving him the time to get his bearings. Didn't have room for Yardrat Goku, but he'd be slightly stronger than Trunks.

• Likewise, #18 probably wasn't outrageously stronger than Vegeta, given that #17 didn't believe she could handle the entire group. She mostly won so easily because of the difference in their stamina.

• I'm subscribing to the idea that Super Saiyan 2 Gohan was extra powerful in the Cell arc because of his incandescent rage, mostly because it makes it a lot easier to fit in all of Cell's various power-ups within that range.

Spoiler:

• While Gohan's strength has degraded a bit from not training for seven years, the vast majority the difference hinges on him not possessing the same anger he had when he faced Cell.

• Dabra's initially estimated to be about as strong as Cell by Goku, who later amends that he's even stronger than he thought... while Dabra is failing to score a definitive W against Super Saiyan 1 Gohan (I'm categorically incapable of believing Toriyama just "forgot" to draw the lightning in those chapters). Something ain't adding up. My best compromise is that when Goku compared Dabra to Cell, he specifically meant regular Perfect Cell as opposed to Super Perfect Cell, and Dabra's full power is somewhere between the two and he was just toying with Gohan the whole time and never went all out against him.

• Pre-Time Chamber Gotenks never actually fights anyone on screen and mostly existed to be a vehicle for gags, so I decided to opt out of making space for him, and only included post-Time Chamber Gotenks on the chart.

• To my mind, neither Goku nor Gotenks were able to tap into Super Saiyan 3's full power. Goku notably tries to in the final battle but fails because of the extreme strain it puts on a living body, and the effect could potentially be even greater on Gotenks because of his small body and inexperience using the form (admittedly, this is a bit of a cheat to keep the gap between Goku and the others from getting out of hand).

• In order for the relationships between all of Majin Boo's various forms to make sense to me, I kinda need to go with the idea that Pure Boo was messing around up until the end and Goku never actually stood a chance against him. Moreover, while we don't see anything of the battle between Majin Boo and the Kaioshin in the manga, the fact that Pure Boo went so far as to absorb the South Kaioshin but never attempted anything like that against Goku and co. could subtly imply South Kaioshin was the only person to truly threaten him. From there, absorbing South Kaioshin doubles Boo's power, while the heart he gained from absorbing Grand Kaioshin tamed and weakened him. Then in the modern era, fat Boo went through a metamorphosis that pushed the balance of good and evil within him back towards evil, greatly reducing Grand Kaioshin's influence and allowing more of Pure Boo and South Kaioshin's combined strength to come through.

[dbgtFO]

I finally completed my Battle Power Chart series, all the way to Boo (I'll be reposting the previous images here so they're all in one place). Let me know what you guys think!

• Zarbon and Dodoria are moved down a smidge to widen the gap between them and Vegeta.

Personally I don't think that's necessary, but ok.

Spoiler:

The Android Arc is certainly where things start getting very speculative again and with lots of diverse opinions on the power scaling, not just because of the absence of power levels, but also because of the #19 & #20 retcon Toriyama was steered towards by Torishima.

I believe the narrative works best, if the first 2 androids are somewhat below full power Freeza and then capable of going beyond that with absorption.

Trunks is the key here. After the 3 years Trunks by virtue of being a Super Saiyan is still held in high regard, even by Piccolo, who despite his own hefty powerup still talks about Trunks, as if the Saiyan is still much stronger than him.
The same Trunks who no one claims to have gotten stronger in those intervening 3 years and frankly it wouldn't make much sense either.

For the story to work IMO Trunks has to have reached a wall, that he still hasn't put a dent in for all this time to justify him needing stronger fighters.
If he can gain a significant upgrade in his power by being on his own, then there's no reason for him to seek help, as he would eventually just surpass the future Androids outright.

Therefore Trunks' power didn't change and Piccolo is a good chunk weaker than him, drastically reducing #19 & #20's powers too.
Then it just naturally follows that there's no need to have them start out stronger than Freeza and reserve that kind of power for only Super Saiyans.

As for sick Goku, by normal logic he'd be way stronger than Yardrat Goku, but the statements are not worded that way. Instead it sounds like this is Tenshinhan's first time ever seeing SSJ Goku's power. It's completely different to how he talked about Goku in the past, where he would directly compare a new Goku to the one he knew in the past, so I simply can't see this as a legitimate power comparison.
Instead I see it as either Toriyama forgot about Tenshinhan seeing SSJ Goku or he dumbed him down to a hype man with deliberatly unspecific statements, so he could shock the readers in the next chapters, when it was revealed Goku was far away from full power.
All of this combined results in me thinking that the early Android Arc Super Saiyans aren't as far removed from each other as you have it here.
You have Vegeta over 3 times as strong as Namek Goku, but I'm very much a believer in a very slow growth for them prior to RoSaT.
I see it as basically a reset of the whole power scale back to very close to Namek Goku/Future Trunks/Yardrat Goku.
We go from:
"Oh my God, Goku's Super Saiyan power is insane!!"
(Leading us to believe Android Arc Goku is much stronger than 3 years ago)
To:
"Actually, he should be far stronger than this"
(Meaning Sick Goku, who is far beyond Yardrat Goku is still far below actual Android Arc Goku)
To:
"Trunks isn't that different from Vegeta and Goku"

Which looks to me like Toriyama dialled it WAY back, so he could have them make ACTUAL huge gains in the RoSaT.

Cell Games:
My only question is why you have Vegeta weaker than 50% Goku.
He was very confident at the Cell Games, only admitting defeat, when Goku showed his actual 100%, which is in line with Vegeta only sensing Goku's 50% beforehand.

Spoiler:

• Dabra's initially estimated to be about as strong as Cell by Goku, who later amends that he's even stronger than he thought... while Dabra is failing to score a definitive W against Super Saiyan 1 Gohan (I'm categorically incapable of believing Toriyama just "forgot" to draw the lightning in those chapters). Something ain't adding up. My best compromise is that when Goku compared Dabra to Cell, he specifically meant regular Perfect Cell as opposed to Super Perfect Cell, and Dabra's full power is somewhere between the two and he was just toying with Gohan the whole time and never went all out against him.

I don't believe he forgot to draw the lightning either.
It seems very deliberate. If anything I'd say it's a retcon, so he can hammer home Gohan not being as strong as his past self and Goku and Vegeta being stronger than him. If they all are running around with the same form, it doesn't properly communicate that.
That being said Super Saiyan 1 or 2, I take the statements at face value and I have no reason to believe Dabra was holding back either. He's slightly weaker than Gohan, but enough of a challenge to the point Gohan can't beat him easily.
If Toriyama didn't mean for Dabra to be equal to or stronger than all versions of Cell, I don't believe he would have doubled down in the very chapter Mr. No lightning was fighting him.
First estimate is "as strong as Cell"
Second estimate with all his power revealed is "much stronger than I thought!"
Good enough for me.

Spoiler:

• Pre-Time Chamber Gotenks never actually fights anyone on screen and mostly existed to be a vehicle for gags, so I decided to opt out of making space for him, and only included post-Time Chamber Gotenks on the chart.

Yeah, post RoSaT Gotenks is absurdly powerful going only by statements to the point you wonder how much of it was legit.
It's due to all the Fusion mechanics + Super Saiyan powerups.
All around a big headache.

Spoiler:

• To my mind, neither Goku nor Gotenks were able to tap into Super Saiyan 3's full power. Goku notably tries to in the final battle but fails because of the extreme strain it puts on a living body, and the effect could potentially be even greater on Gotenks because of his small body and inexperience using the form (admittedly, this is a bit of a cheat to keep the gap between Goku and the others from getting out of hand).

I see, I can buy that. Granted as we all know the final part of the arc was a bit silly, so there was bound to be discrepancies everywhere.
Not sure I agree with Pure Buu being that much stronger than Goku. I don't think there's a proper statement anywhere, where Goku is implied to not be capable of surpassing Buu at full power afterall, but whatever.

All in all a well put together list and nicely formatted.
Numbers are just too bloated for my tastes

[LightBing]

snip

I agree with your assessment about #18 vs Vegeta but the gap seems way too large for what you're saying. Could you share how you see gaps working?

Trunks should have been way superior to Goku when first introduced. Trunks special manga chapters have all the following information:

- The time machine takes 7 months to recharge, he only had that time to train while the others trained for 3 years.
- He mentions himself as equal to the Future Androids individually.
- He only conceded to using the time travel solution, after losing to the Androids and barely surviving. It would make no sense for him to confront them again in the 7 months it took for him to return. Therefore he already was as strong as them when he first met Goku.
- Him calling Goku impressive and having hope in him doesn't contradict the above. After all Goku has 3 years to improve and is already stronger than his idol Future Gohan, which we know is equal to 50% Future Androids.

I also think #19 and #20 are weaker than Freeza initially. Main reasons being Piccolo being able to take on #20 and them thinking the humans energy mattered to turn things around.

In the Cell games, everyone should have bridged the gap somewhat to Goku. Vegeta, Trunks and Piccolo should all be above his 50%; Goku comments how Piccolo is a whole dimension stronger after using the RoSaT.

Gohan was for sure SSJ while fighting Dabra, 100% agree on that.

In-universe this can be justifiable in two ways: his lack of training means he needed anger, which he had against Kibito since it was shortly after witnessing Videl's fight; or Kibito wasn't able to fully heal him(he's surprised how strong Gohan is while healing him).

Lastly, we know Majin Boo's power. Toriyama shows us how much of Gohan's power restores Boo's energy; almost half.
That information is classic Toriyama writing, the "half power/50%" gap that's meant to cause despair with a comparison to the previous strongest in this case SSJ2 Gohan.

Any further numbers need to be anchored in this Majin Boo number.

[Hugo Boss]

Dabra being comparable to Cell is such a headache, because his power is also comparable to SS1 Gohan. He was tougher than expected because of his magic, but the inconsistence still remains. A few chapters ago, Vegeta said SS2 Gohan was weaker than he was when he fought Cell, and Cell was almost as strong as SS2 Gohan from back then. Needless to say that Cell would smoke SS2 Gohan from Boo arc, let alone SS1 Gohan.

[Kaboom]

The solution is to simply not try so hard to equate Dabra to any one specific level of power that Cell showed. Goku's comparison was very vague and not even based on actually sensing Dabra's ki.

He's just a broadly "Cell tier" opponent, and then you work out a more specific estimate than that based on his actual battle performance.

[DanielSSJ]

Alright, I got a lot of good feedback on this one, you guys gave me a lot to consider.

Since it was mentioned by multiple people, I want to clarify that the power levels I down put for #19 and #20 were the maximums they reached from absorbing ki, not their starting levels. That's why I put them down as "up to _ million" and why #19 was stronger than #20 instead of vice versa.

Lightbing and dbgtFO's suggestion that Trunks was already about as strong as he'd get before going into the Room of Spirit and Time when he arrived in the past is a good one, and definitely something I'm going to incorporate into the revised version (though I think I'm going to take a small a break before I dive back into it).

snip

I feel like about 3-fold improvement is fairly reasonable for 4~5 years of training, 3 of which were especially intense, but to each their own. Out of curiosity, how would you render those numbers, just so I understand a bit better what you mean.

I'll admit, I didn't give Vegeta and co that much thought when I put them down, but after rereading some of Vegeta's dialogue, I agree he and Trunks should be moved up a bit.

Pure Boo is admittedly that much stronger than Goku only to make the power progression from him to Buff Boo to Evil Boo make sense to me. Though I could always nerf Gotenks to push the other two down.

snip

Regarding #18 vs Vegeta, I just meant there's not a big 30~50% gap. Though I do think I could maybe go down a little.

I'm definitely planning on bumping Vegeta and co. up a bit, but I don't think Piccolo necessarily has to be above Goku's 50%. The main takeaway from that conversation is that he's at an entirely different level from before, but he's so obviously no match for Cell that it shouldn't warrant mentioning.

I'm definitely going to take another look at Gohan in the Boo arc, I don't fat Boo needs to be locked down to twice Gohan's power. It could just be that's the required energy to fully jump start him. That said, one idea I did have for Gohan could be that given his age and the training he put in before the tournament, he's actually stronger than he was seven years ago as a Super Saiyan 1 and it's only his inability to tap into his anger that's keeping his Super Saiyan 2 so far below it's previous peak.

[dbgtFO]

Spoiler:

Lightbing and dbgtFO's suggestion that Trunks was already about as strong as he'd get before going into the Room of Spirit and Time when he arrived in the past is a good one, and definitely something I'm going to incorporate into the revised version (though I think I'm going to take a small a break before I dive back into it).

Glad you found it useful
And yeah Trunks' power is the one I'm most confident about in the analysis of the power levels in the early Android Arc.

Spoiler:

I feel like about 3-fold improvement is fairly reasonable for 4~5 years of training, 3 of which were especially intense, but to each their own. Out of curiosity, how would you render those numbers, just so I understand a bit better what you mean.

Be warned I am quite the lowballer, when it comes to their training gains, but as I said, I truly believe it is because Toriyama just retooled the whole thing, so he could introduce the RoSaT and THEN have them get some actual HUGE gains.

So if Trunks is 180
Then Goku and Vegeta would be 200-210 at max to satisfy them not being that much stronger than Trunks and that effectively being the current Super Saiyan wall, until they do some introspection and learn to go beyond that in the RoSaT.

Namek Goku 150
Yardrat Goku 160
Future Trunks 175 -> 180
Android Arc Goku/Vegeta 200

Spoiler:

I'll admit, I didn't give Vegeta and co that much thought when I put them down, but after rereading some of Vegeta's dialogue, I agree he and Trunks should be moved up a bit.

Yeah sounds good.

Spoiler:

Pure Boo is admittedly that much stronger than Goku only to make the power progression from him to Buff Boo to Evil Boo make sense to me. Though I could always nerf Gotenks to push the other two down.

Yeah ok, it's always gonna be a contentious issue. Suffice to say that I am personally satisfied with Pure Buu and Goku being exactly equal, but I believe the story would have worked better with Buu just managing to get stronger than everyone at the end.

Spoiler:

I'm definitely going to take another look at Gohan in the Boo arc, I don't fat Boo needs to be locked down to twice Gohan's power. It could just be that's the required energy to fully jump start him. That said, one idea I did have for Gohan could be that given his age and the training he put in before the tournament, he's actually stronger than he was seven years ago as a Super Saiyan 1 and it's only his inability to tap into his anger that's keeping his Super Saiyan 2 so far below it's previous peak.

That's how I have it basically, though I also just go with the idea that Teen Gohan's SS2 has been retconned out of the story, hah, so his Super Saiyan is much stronger than it was at the Cell Games, but it's still a far cry from his SS2 from the Cell Games.

[Koitsukai]

I agree that the super saiyan wall is about 200-250M.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I like Grade 1 SSJs capping out at 2-3x Namek Goku. If Future Gohan was about half of Future 17's power and SSJ Vegeta is considered a rival to Future 18 (Trunks thinks Vegeta = 18 and didn't notice Present > Future until later). That means Goku getting 1.5x to 2x stronger in the 3 years is a pretty good estimative. We also can't forget Trunks is undoubtedly stronger than Namek Goku given how easily he beats Freeza, though the amount is up in the air.

On the fake androids, I think their initial power tends to be underestimated. 19 was getting beat up sure, but it's a fairly tame beat up, he does better than Freeza did vs Trunks for sure.

Dabura is always a nasty one. Right now I'm going with Gohan being a SSJ2 and Toriyama skipped the sparks to make Gohan look weak.

[DanielSSJ]

To be fair, #19 didn't have a panic attack when he saw Goku transform into a Super Saiyan.

[LightBing]

Regarding #18 vs Vegeta, I just meant there's not a big 30~50% gap. Though I do think I could maybe go down a little.

I'm definitely planning on bumping Vegeta and co. up a bit, but I don't think Piccolo necessarily has to be above Goku's 50%. The main takeaway from that conversation is that he's at an entirely different level from before, but he's so obviously no match for Cell that it shouldn't warrant mentioning.

I'm definitely going to take another look at Gohan in the Boo arc, I don't fat Boo needs to be locked down to twice Gohan's power. It could just be that's the required energy to fully jump start him. That said, one idea I did have for Gohan could be that given his age and the training he put in before the tournament, he's actually stronger than he was seven years ago as a Super Saiyan 1 and it's only his inability to tap into his anger that's keeping his Super Saiyan 2 so far below it's previous peak.

Your range is much wider than mine. Like #18 vs Vegeta I would probably put within a 10% range.

I only put Piccolo above 50% because of that conversation, it only makes sense to me if that's the conclusion. Even at 60% of Goku he would still be finger-flicked by him and there's enough range to put Vegeta and Trunks in-between.

I don't think it locks Majin Boo down. That indirect power calculation is more than enough for all the feats displayed by him. 50% gap is huge and would encompass his opponents in between.
Also I'm pretty sure it's said or implied Boo won't be a full power if he came out early, without the meter being replenished.

The problem with Gohan is that both his SSJ2 and SSJ1 are called out as slacking. Against Dabra, it's not only Vegeta even Goku agrees.

Had the fight continued, he would have likely have lost. Only anger would have saved him, which is likely what Goku was counting on by letting the fight continue since he mentioned rage again later.
So I don't think there's any discrepancies necessarily.

[DanielSSJ]

Your range is much wider than mine. Like #18 vs Vegeta I would probably put within a 10% range.

I only put Piccolo above 50% because of that conversation, it only makes sense to me if that's the conclusion. Even at 60% of Goku he would still be finger-flicked by him and there's enough range to put Vegeta and Trunks in-between.

I don't think it locks Majin Boo down. That indirect power calculation is more than enough for all the feats displayed by him. 50% gap is huge and would encompass his opponents in between.
Also I'm pretty sure it's said or implied Boo won't be a full power if he came out early, without the meter being replenished.

The problem with Gohan is that both his SSJ2 and SSJ1 are called out as slacking. Against Dabra, it's not only Vegeta even Goku agrees.

Had the fight continued, he would have likely have lost. Only anger would have saved him, which is likely what Goku was counting on by letting the fight continue since he mentioned rage again later.
So I don't think there's any discrepancies necessarily.

Yeah I'm probably going to move #18 down a smidge. 600 vs 520 would be a 15% difference.

I still don't see the evidence for Piccolo. All that conversation does is acknowledge that he trained, but is still 100% out of the game. I don't think he can't be over Goku's 50%, but I don't think he has to be over it either.

I think Goku and Vegeta's complaints could be chalked up to how Gohan apparently can't consistently access Super Saiyan 2. They both saw him transform into it at the tournament, so him not being able to do it here would be an even bigger disappointment.

[LightBing]

Yeah I'm probably going to move #18 down a smidge. 600 vs 520 would be a 15% difference.

I still don't see the evidence for Piccolo. All that conversation does is acknowledge that he trained, but is still 100% out of the game. I don't think he can't be over Goku's 50%, but I don't think he has to be over it either.

I think Goku and Vegeta's complaints could be chalked up to how Gohan apparently can't consistently access Super Saiyan 2. They both saw him transform into it at the tournament, so him not being able to do it here would be an even bigger disappointment.

Reflecting about the percentage, I'm thinking that maybe Vegeta should be ahead.
#18 doesn't take damage, doesn't tire and opponents can't feel her Ki which makes it an even harder fight.
Vegeta only has a skill advantage. Piccolo describes him slowly losing his advantage.

Regarding Piccolo: he asks about his chances against Cell, when his only information is 50% Goku who himself said he wasn't sure if he could win.
Even if Piccolo admittedly asked the question assuming the negative answer, he has to be close to that level not to sound like an idiot.
This is Toriyama giving a scale for now and later. SSJ2 Gohan disposing Cell Jrs suddenly is much less impressive if they're not even 50% of Goku.

That's an angle. Probably the most sensible way to solve it. Goku does talk about him using his anger later.

[DanielSSJ]

Reflecting about the percentage, I'm thinking that maybe Vegeta should be ahead.
#18 doesn't take damage, doesn't tire and opponents can't feel her Ki which makes it an even harder fight.
Vegeta only has a skill advantage. Piccolo describes him slowly losing his advantage.

Regarding Piccolo: he asks about his chances against Cell, when his only information is 50% Goku who himself said he wasn't sure if he could win.
Even if Piccolo admittedly asked the question assuming the negative answer, he has to be close to that level not to sound like an idiot.
This is Toriyama giving a scale for now and later. SSJ2 Gohan disposing Cell Jrs suddenly is much less impressive if they're not even 50% of Goku.

That's an angle. Probably the most sensible way to solve it. Goku does talk about him using his anger later.

Trunks goes out of his way to call this timeline's #17 and #18 outrageously strong. Obviously they can't gauge their strength from ki, so there's an inherent vagueness to it, but having her be less powerful than Vegeta feels like a bridge too far.

Rereading Piccolo's exchange with Goku, he's not really even asking a question more that he's telling Goku not to blow smoke up his ass.

Goku: “I can tell! You’ve risen to an entirely different level.”
Piccolo: “…Why don’t you just be frank with me? I’ve grown stronger, but even so, it won’t do any good against Cell…”

I can't read any more meaning into that than just "Don't expect anything amazing from Piccolo going forward".


That said, I have revisions:

Spoiler:

No changes worth mentioning.

Spoiler:

I made a few small adjustments to the final Freeza arc power levels make a bit more room for all the power jumps between second form Freeza and Goku, and to shrink the distance between 100% Freeza and Super Saiyan Goku a little. Super Saiyan isn't exactly a 50x boost anymore, but I've never felt married to that anyways, so who cares?

Spoiler:

• Taking feedback from few of you, I decided that Trunks should probably already be nearly as strong as he'd get before going into the Room of Spirit and Time in his first appearance. There wasn't room for it here, but I figure his "3 years/8 months later" power level would be around 450m.

• There are small adjustments here and there, but most important one is that Vegeta, Trunks, Piccolo, and the Cell Jrs all get a sizeable bump to better scale to Goku's 50% power.

Spoiler:

Probably to nobody's surprise, the Majin Boo arc's gone through the most substantial changes.

• I mentioned it before, I'm going with the idea that puberty offset Gohan's seven years of not training, and by the day of the 25th Budokai, he's actually a little stronger than when he was a kid. The only area he's really suffering in is Super Saiyan 2, not being able to access his full power, or even transform into it consistently.

• I wasn't satisfied with how strong I thought I had to make Pure Boo in my last list, so I scaled him down to fit in better with SS3 Goku, and adjusted everything else around it. Had to make the gap between Gotenks' forms even smaller to make it work, but Gotenks was already kind of doing okay okay against Evil Boo before he went Super Saiyan 3, it never felt like that big of a jump.