"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[MCDaveG]

The thing with Toyotaro is definitely a legal work contract thing. While Toriyama was and will be the original author, as mangaka/author, Toyotaro on the other hand is hired artist for specific purpose.
In hindsight, it was Toriyama in your face, as original author and it was bit distorted by the narrative in interviews, where they were putting so much emphasis of adhering to his vision and blah blah blah, to overlap his unexpected passing.
But if Toyotaro is the writer of Moro arc and created some or all designs, he will definitely be credited in anime for it.
Unfortunately, he is still just a hired force, the same way directors and other artists are in anime for example.
Toriyama was still the driving force behind those stories tho, doesn't matter if all he did was just writing a few words on napkin.
Toyotaro must go full mangaka to get more prominence, either with his original work, or get credit for art and writing through some new standalone Dragon Ball spin-off (based on the work of Akira Toriyama of course).

Also, while Toriyama was a self-made man in a sense, working as a book author hired by the publishing house, Toyotaro will have to go through different process in case he even has the perequisites like ambition to do so, or if he is even capable of such specific work going on his own. So far, all of his work was derivative and adapting.

[Vegard Aune]

The weird thing is, like, it feels like in the books themselves they are open enough about it primarily being Toyotaro's work. Talk about Toriyama's outlines barely having any detail, Toyotaro showing page sketches and pointing out Toriyama's corrections which include changing the dialogue in places (meaning that the dialogue was not, originally, written by Toriyama), and every single time Toriyama talked about Toyotaro's work it was like "He's fantastic, I have so much respect for him, the things he's doing are things I never could, and I think as he has gone on he has made the series more and more his own"...

But then yeah, outside of that Toyotaro gets little to no recognition. And indeed, the credit on the manga covers (which seems to be a mandate from Shueisha) definitely makes it look like Toriyama's involvement was far greater than it actually was. Especially for Moro and Granollah, where interviews were pretty clear that these characters were Toyotaro's idea.

[Noah]

You know, seeing these covers just reminds me of how much potential the Galactic Patrol Prisoner arc has once it finally gets animated.

I'm really hoping Toei doesn't screw it up.

[TKA]

The Moro arc is the start of the decline of the Super manga. It'd be very difficult for an adaptation being made almost a decade later to be as bad, or even worse. There is a lot of hindsight and weathervaning that can (and should) be employed to make it better.

[Chuquita]

I remember losing interest in this arc pretty soon after Moro's reveal. I don't like the old goat-man design and I don't like the younger not!Cell design either. I remember I'd been hoping for Moro to have a wider variety of attacks (one of the same complaints I had against Daima's magic users) when he turned out to mostly be energy-drain techniques.

If the anime staff is given leeway in the story I'm fine with that at the moment. I like that Super had downtime in the anime. I'm in the minority in that I do like Goku and Vegeta interacting and playing off each other (something that was sorely missing from Daima for me that Super had plenty of) so at the least I'm going to watch Moro for them.

I'm neutral on Goku's Jojo Stand-esque attack at the end he uses against Moro.

[The Dark Knight]

The Moro arc is the start of the decline of the Super manga. It'd be very difficult for an adaptation being made almost a decade later to be as bad, or even worse. There is a lot of hindsight and weathervaning that can (and should) be employed to make it better.

I'm on the complete opposite side to you; I think the Moro arc is the one and only good arc to come out of Super so far. Champa was underwhelming, Zamasu was a train wreck, Jiren was all action and 0 substance, and Granola was just bad. Moro, despite its flaws, is an overall good arc; I can safely put it alongside Battle of Gods and Daima as the only three good stories to come out of this revival.

[Mr Baggins]

Even if it is a rather formulaic story, the Moro arc has enough of a workable foundation that, with a few tweaks, can easily be improved over what Toyotaro was able to present on his own – mainly the pacing, but definitely some of the plot as well. I don't think Toei would actually make any significant changes here, but it's an observation worth mentioning.

I don't at all feel the same about the Granolah arc, which is fundamentally at odds with everything that makes Dragon Ball (let alone Toriyama's storytelling) work, not excluding some of the worst structuring I've seen from this franchise ever. I couldn't possibly be more uninvested in the prospect of an adaptation.

With all of that said, I think the Super manga deserves to close out on its own terms. It is very funny to me that even after all this time, V Jump still has to remind us it's on hiatus every month.

[kemuri07]

Even if it is a rather formulaic story, the Moro arc has enough of a workable foundation that, with a few tweaks, can easily be improved over what Toyotaro was able to present on his own – mainly the pacing, but definitely some of the plot as well. I don't think Toei would actually make any significant changes here, but it's an observation worth mentioning.

I don't at all feel the same about the Granolah arc, which is fundamentally at odds with everything that makes Dragon Ball (let alone Toriyama's storytelling) work, not excluding some of the worst structuring I've seen from this franchise ever. I couldn't possibly be more uninvested in the prospect of an adaptation.

With all of that said, I think the Super manga deserves to close out on its own terms. It is very funny to me that even after all this time, V Jump still has to remind us it's on hiatus every month.

The Granolah arc is simultaneously Super's most ambitious arc, while also being its most disappointing. And it really shows just how much Modern Dragon Ball refuses to change when something "threatens" to do something interesting to the status quo, and it's like "nope. That's way too interesting. Let's completely undercut this brand new character (who is literally supposed to be the focus of this arc) and, I dunno, let's make it about Bardock because we gotta sell these books somehow!!!" And then, when it introduces a ciiffhanger that's actually interesting, proceeds to do fuck-all with it and decides instead to adapt a movie that had already released like a year prior.


It's almost impressive to see how much the Super franchise has continually shit the bed.

[Grimlock]

Is there someone who can manage to tell what would be so "interesting" in yet another Freeza-related plot?

[The Dark Knight]

Is there someone who can manage to tell what would be so "interesting" in yet another Freeza-related plot?

I think people just want to know what's going on with Freeza; it doesn't have to be a Freeza-exclusive arc. You can't bring someone like him back to life, give him a new form, then not expect people to want some resolution to that plot.

[angeldreamZ004]

Well, I can, though I think Freeza is not going to be the main villain again (I know you didn't say this, but many people speculate this, so I'll still consider it)

Something I really liked in the end of the Granola arc is that it strongly suggests something (not so) new for Freeza, which is the new path he chose to reach ultimate power, which actually goes back to his Golden arc, where he started training.
Now he reappears saying that he trained inside a ROSAT for 10 years, shows a “new form” (which I personally believe is just Golden Freeza again, but stronger, not a separate form, but I can save my theory for this for another time) that mimics the colors of the two forms of UI, and decides to not kill Goku and Vegeta, possibly thinking about the mistake he did last time (and remembering how they could simply use fusion to defeat him, remember his interaction with Gogeta)

He's being more patient, and my theory is that he's understanding more and more that infinite physical strength is not everything, he needs to get spiritually stronger as well, with his revival he literally just learned how the duo is training with high rank deities.
I believe anyone who's interested in the mystical and theological development of Super (like me) may already kinda expect what to see in the next arc (and why some speculate that Freeza wants to fight Beerus)

The last arc though slowed down things a lot, I think it was fun but also underwhelming, I expected a lot more from a Piccolo & Gohan focused story when compared to what was done to Goku and Vegeta, I'm pretty sure no one asked to see the Red Ribbon returning again (though, I'm pretty sure a lot of fans asked for Cell to come back. But the way it was done…well, I at least wish It was something completely different and new)

I think it was actually already a sign of how Daima would be, working in multiple projects at the same time simply tired out Toriyama, I expected a lot more from that show, but in the end I think he made the Makai look just like a place that could be in the regular human dimension, not exploring the potential of the new ideas and wasting time with useless stuff and jokes.

Unpopular opinion but I wish Toyotaro was the one who did Daima instead, I recently finished re-reading the Moro arc and I really enjoyed, given what Toyo did, I'm pretty sure he would've made a more interesting version of Makai and in deep serious exploration of it than what Toriyama did.
Revisited the Granola arc as well and I also really liked it, disagree with those who complain about it (and no, it's not the most ambitious Super arc, or else every arc is actually meant to be “ambitious”, but it will never be that anticipated if it's not even in the anime and they knew the manga was a less popular media. So that actually goes to the ToP, just look at how it was marketed, while for a movie, it was Broly) though it was Toriyama who made it, but I highly doubt that Toyotaro didn't contribute a lot to make it more interesting (I at least interpret his commentaries for the WDBN this way)

So I like to think that the last arc was a break done on purpose (and given how Toriyama didn't even consider the “Super” brand for the movie, I think this becomes clear) before reaching a supposed climax, so I trust Toyo will be giving his all on the next arc, and show why it's called Dragon Ball “Super”, it's not “Super” in a way that represents quality or being superior, that will depend on the reader, but “Super” in the sense of “going beyond”, which is what the series does, goes beyond the ideas and concepts explored in the original series, so I'm personally excited for the next arc.

You know, seeing these covers just reminds me of how much potential the Galactic Patrol Prisoner arc has once it finally gets animated.
I'm really hoping Toei doesn't screw it up.

Can't comment on story adaptation, but Iyoku at least guaranteed that it will have the best quality animation and visuals possible. So at least this part we are safe in expect that Toei will deliver something really great (unless something bad happens)

[kiarasuraru]

Is there someone who can manage to tell what would be so "interesting" in yet another Freeza-related plot?

Think of the hype moments and aura!
Imagine Beast Gohan fighting Black Freeza!
Imagine Broly fighting Black Freeza!
Imagine Orange Piccolo fighting Black Freeza!
Imagine them all losing against Black Freeza so we can build up the "threat" and Goku and Vegeta have to fuse!
Imagine Gogeta who can switch between Instinct and Ego fighting Black Freeza!
(btw even after this they will all still be 0.0000000000000000000001% of suppressed Beerus)

Is there someone who can manage to tell what would be so "interesting" in yet another Freeza-related plot?

I think people just want to know what's going on with Freeza; it doesn't have to be a Freeza-exclusive arc. You can't bring someone like him back to life, give him a new form, then not expect people to want some resolution to that plot.

The thing is, which plot?
What is even the plot here? Freeza is evil and they've gotta kill him? Okay, why didn't Gogeta just do it during Broly? When one of the first scenes of the movie is Vegeta having a total meltdown over Freeza staying alive and his rightful and promptly proven right worry over him doing something to fuck them over?
We all know the answer to that.
And it goes the other way too. Freeza goes and lucks upon Broly and five minutes later he throws them at Goku and Vegeta. Clearly, this means the man still wants to kill them. What does he do then in Granolah after oneshotting them? Doesn't kill them lol.
So what gives?
The only resolution possible is Freeza fucking dies for reals, and that's completely counter to the very reason why they brought him back to begin with. Twice. And made him stay in a permanent basis. He's just a jingling key plotbait, even most shameless than Beerus becoming the eternal moving goalpost, to keep filling in the pockets just like the marketing department said bringing him back and making him stay 5ever would.
The only resolution possible is just literally just rehashing F. So it goes back to first thing I said. Think of the hype moments and aura!

[The Dark Knight]

The only resolution possible is just literally just rehashing F. So it goes back to first thing I said. Think of the hype moments and aura!

I like to think there's something else being built up to besides another good guys Vs. Freeza story, but only time will tell I guess.

[Bardock God of Time]

The only resolution possible is just literally just rehashing F. So it goes back to first thing I said. Think of the hype moments and aura!

I like to think there's something else being built up to besides another good guys Vs. Freeza story, but only time will tell I guess.

Like Frieza could be a red herring for a new big bad, a villain that BLACK FRIEZA can't handle

Gives us an excuse for another Goku, Vegeta and Frieza teamup.

[The Dark Knight]

The only resolution possible is just literally just rehashing F. So it goes back to first thing I said. Think of the hype moments and aura!

I like to think there's something else being built up to besides another good guys Vs. Freeza story, but only time will tell I guess.

Like Frieza could be a red herring for a new big bad, a villain that BLACK FRIEZA can't handle

Gives us an excuse for another Goku, Vegeta and Frieza teamup.

That's what I'm thinking. We've never seen Vegeta or even Piccolo have to work with Freeza, so there's some interesting interactions they can work with. Another thing we could get is Freeza playing everyone for his own benefits; maybe have him play the role Vegeta did on Namek where he's sneaking around and taking advantage of what's going on. Whis mentioned the strongest mortal in the universe, so there's something else going on besides just fighting Freeza again.

[Grimlock]

I think people just want to know what's going on with Freeza; it doesn't have to be a Freeza-exclusive arc. You can't bring someone like him back to life, give him a new form, then not expect people to want some resolution to that plot.

That's just the thing, he shouldn't have come back in the first place, so if him simply vanishing means we won't have to put up with him and leaves a spot open for other, new (and hopefully more interesting) characters, I'm all for it.

I like to think there's something else being built up to besides another good guys Vs. Freeza story, but only time will tell I guess.

You give way more credit to these people than I could humanely give it myself. It's inspiring, if nothing else.

Think of the hype moments and aura!
Imagine Beast Gohan fighting Black Freeza!
Imagine Broly fighting Black Freeza!
Imagine Orange Piccolo fighting Black Freeza!
Imagine them all losing against Black Freeza so we can build up the "threat" and Goku and Vegeta have to fuse!
Imagine Gogeta who can switch between Instinct and Ego fighting Black Freeza!
(btw even after this they will all still be 0.0000000000000000000001% of suppressed Beerus)

All I can think of is:

Gives us an excuse for another Goku, Vegeta and Frieza teamup.

I like to remember the beautiful theme that the Bardock TV Special and Freeza saga set. A "last man standing" avenging his fallen race by defeating the culprit. Now ruined with a buddy-buddy relationship... oh well. As long as we have those shiny cool moments and probably even asking Freeza to join the "Z Warriors/Dragon Team" or whatever it's called, I guess.

[The Dark Knight]

You give way more credit to these people than I could humanely give it myself. It's inspiring, if nothing else.

I'm definitely giving them more credit than they deserve, as this entire revival era has been one disappointment after another. With that said, I like Dragon Ball, so I'm always going to hope for the best, even though deep down I know the chances of them delivering are slim to none.

[kemuri07]

You give way more credit to these people than I could humanely give it myself. It's inspiring, if nothing else.

I'm definitely giving them more credit than they deserve, as this entire revival era has been one disappointment after another. With that said, I like Dragon Ball, so I'm always going to hope for the best, even though deep down I know the chances of them delivering are slim to none.

This is my default status and why I'll give any thing with the name "Dragon Ball" a shot. But I've long since given up hope that they'll do anything above give me the occasional nostalgia pop. And I think I'm okay with that because DragonBall already has a beginning and an ended: starting with a little boy getting shot in the face by a teenaged girl, and ending with that same boy, now a man, kidnapping a poor brown child to teach him magical kung-fu. As far as I'm concerned, anything that happens in those missing 10 years are so inconsequential that they can be ignored.

[The Dark Knight]

This is my default status and why I'll give any thing with the name "Dragon Ball" a shot. But I've long since given up hope that they'll do anything above give me the occasional nostalgia pop. And I think I'm okay with that because DragonBall already has a beginning and an ended: starting with a little boy getting shot in the face by a teenaged girl, and ending with that same boy, now a man, kidnapping a poor brown child to teach him magical kung-fu. As far as I'm concerned, anything that happens in those missing 10 years are so inconsequential that they can be ignored.

I don't know if I'd describe it like that but I hold a similar view to yours: Dragon Ball to me is the original run of the manga and anime from the 80s and 90s, and I'll even throw in the games we got during the PS2 era, as well as the Kanzenban edition of the manga and the Dragon Boxes. 1984-2007 really was the golden era of the franchise, an era that's magic will (as we've seen since 2008) never be recaptured again, be it in the anime, manga, games, home releases, etc.

[angeldreamZ004]

But I've long since given up hope that they'll do anything above give me the occasional nostalgia pop.

It will arrive at some point in the future though where they won't be able to choose another path but two: bet on new things - or - keep rehashing the same ideas and characters over and over and over.

So far the modern era has already rehashed almost everything from the original series, and even included recycling from Toei-exclusive material such as the old movies and GT, sure there's still stuff out there, but it's finite, and characters like Broly, Gogeta, Bardock etc had the excuse that “it was Toriyama's view”, well they can't use that magic word anymore unless they are willing to lie about his involvement in more future projects. But who said that this will force them to innovate? It will depend on how the audience will react, and if they'll buy it regardless of what is said online, because multiple times it was officially said “this is what fans want” (check out one of Toriyama's commentaries for Super Hero for example)
Which fans? Fans don't have a general consensus, there are fans who want something fresh, new, fans who say “please make Coola, Janemba, etc…canon”, so they'll either have to embrace only one side, or, “embrace all sides” in a way which I'll talk about below.

I'm always going to hope for the best, even though deep down I know the chances of them delivering are slim to none.

This is my default status and why I'll give any thing with the name "Dragon Ball" a shot.

These right here in my opinion represent part of the cycle that dictates the state the Dragon Ball franchise will stay in, which is a Pokemon-like state.

But I don't view it as negative or horrible, even though in my opinion, not boycott, but indifference in regards to it is the absolute key to see a change. Not engaging in any way with it, numbers for them is everything, so once that starts dropping, you'll see the magic happen.
Sure, you could argue that this would lead to another post-GT-pre-Super era in the franchise, but would it really be bad? The series managed to survive the entirety of the 2000s only through the international distribution and videogames that did the same thing over and over, and even the early 2010s with a half-assed remaster.
That 1997 scenario was also different too, where the internet was still primitive and the series still had its feet centralized in Japan only. Nowadays, consecutive failures would lead to a much different scenario, one that I personally do think it awakens curiosity, after all, we know too well how it goes with consecutive successes.

Luck is in its side, they do something that has a really bad track record with other franchises, which is trying to appeal to everyone, and with the modern era they just throw things in all directions: you'll see it being very childish, to the point of feeling stupid, or artificially darker, or a middle ground, showing blood, not showing blood, or occasionally changing between adventure and fights. Sure you can say that it happened in the original series, but back then, it was procedural and natural, taking a lot of chapters for it to go from gags and adventure to muscles and fights.
The modern era in contrast is just very schizophrenic, there are times where they take the risk to do something new, but right after, nostalgia bait, and even when they decided to make a series that nobody asked for (remember how most people reacted to Daima's reveal), it's still a success, I don't expect it to be different with Super Kai, and as far as I know, nobody asked for Dragon Ball to also (re)join the remaster / remake tsunami of this decade either. Still… well, it's part of the game, and there are fans who'll decide to play it blindly, others who play aware of the many traps all over the place. There are the ones who decide to not even play it, but it's the smallest percentage (or else, the franchise would see a decline in numbers)

This has its side effects, and the more time goes on, the more we notice them, as even the once venerated original series started receiving harsh criticism in the latest years (though some of the reasons behind it are also cultural development, the phrase “Dragon Ball Z is unwatchable nowadays” is 2 decades old already, but got more common due to modern anime being shorter and faster)

But that's just the way I particularly see it, everyone has a personal different experience and their own particular reasons to keep consuming these things, reasons that are not really up to me to discuss and trying to debate about it won't really lead anywhere, as they are rather complex, and can touch topics such as the aging / maturity of an individual (the fights used to be the main reason I liked the series when I was younger. Nowadays they aren't) I can try to understand them, sure, but if not, what I have to do is simply respect as such individual will be able to understand it more than anyone else, it doesn't harm me nor it's meant to, though of course, there are toxic fans everywhere, they'll blame you for the franchise being the way it is, say that you allowed them lobotomize you, this kind of stuff. Well I don't like this kind of treatment, extreme judgement, everyone is free to do what they want and know what to do with their money, and obviously, no attention should be given to those who like to mock.

I'm not very patient and can easily move on if I feel that there's no payoff, so I would only allow myself to be disappointed, like, twice. The third? fourth? fifth time? No, I would already no longer be here, we have a life and limited time, but I don't criticize those who follow the series and keep …well, criticizing it, its dedication and there's something meaningful behind it for sure, it will vary from person to person, in my case, I think keeping myself in touch with it would only possibly frustrate me, so giving up would be the easier path, but those who decide to continue and overcome expectations have a special trait to them (even if the explanation is a simple “I like Dragon Ball”, which obviously doesn't mean you have to keep checking for every other new release in the series, yet, it's a decision, even if you win nothing in return, though “disappointment” can be very substantial, but in case it was apathy, it would be just a waste of time)
So like Grimlock said, it's indeed somewhat inspiring, and something good to reflect about, as this strongly suggests that despite how positive I try to be about the series, I'm one who's more susceptible to let it go, so I highly respect those who decide to stay despite their belief that what they receive is barely any above mediocrity most of the time. I personally might just leave the boat and look out for a new / hobby instead, maybe stay with the old stuff if still interested.

Anyway, I'm also one who shares the view that true Dragon Ball is just the original manga and its split animated adaptation, while everything else is just an extra. If Super ends with the next arc and after it we get nothing more, I'll be fine, won't mind it, the only thing I hope is that Toyotaro will be fine, because so far I feel that he's the one who always has to remain standing during musical chairs.
CCT, Shueisha, Toei, and Bandai are the ones to break their heads trying to figure out what to do next given how heavily they expanded this IP.

So Iyoku confirms 10 years of content, but after one short series that was already in production back then, inside this new administration, the first animation project we get is a remaster / remake version of the Super 2015 anime that we don't know when it's going to end.
While V-Jump simply keeps saying that there will be nothing about DBS in the next issues.
Around the same time they reveal a new videogame that they say it had Toriyama involved and it's a new experience, so they have an excuse for fans to not say that there's nothing new to look forward to, and it's actually already in development for nearly a decade.

A word to the wise is sufficient.

Patience.