Unpopular DB opinions

[Kenji]

Although I didn't know DB fandom overlapped with furry bait community.

You'd be shocked how many people's only knowledge of Super is Beerus and Bergamo.

[PhantomSaiyan]

A lot of things we grew up with were bad, there's no shame in recognizing it.
Things like Power Rangers, Mortal Kombat, Dragon Ball, etc. definitely didn't get popular because of the quality of their writing.

It's okay fam, I still watch/play them.

I've always been very honest here in this forum about how the majority of Dragon Ball's writing is straight up not good, I've always been fine with that.

The difference though is that I still enjoy it to this day, I while I got the impression (maybe wrong impression) that you don't even enjoy large stretches of Dragon Ball

Cuz I'd never say that the manga was meh or that it crashed and burned like you said, because the main appeal has never been the story or the writing, so even if those things are subpar, that would never impact my enjoyment

[Kenji]

I've always been very honest here in this forum about how the majority of Dragon Ball's writing is straight up not good, I've always been fine with that.

That's perfectly fine, there are multiple reasons why someone might be called to a work of art.

However, this was largely a discussion about Dragon Ball's quality of writing and how GT fails to measure up to it.
To which I say: Whatever, Dragon Ball was never good (on the writing front), you can still enjoy other things about it.

As for, "You don't seem to enjoy large stretches of Dragon Ball," that's partially true.
I sure as heck do not enjoy Dragon Ball for its story, but for most of its runtime, it's entertaining at least.

A better case could be made about how GT is simply not as entertaining as the original.

[The Dark Knight]

I've always been very honest here in this forum about how the majority of Dragon Ball's writing is straight up not good, I've always been fine with that.

Dragon Ball was never good (on the writing front), you can still enjoy other things about it.

I would highly recommend you two watch Totally Not Mark's reviews of the original DB and Z, as he excellently explains just how great DB's writing actually is. That's not to say you have to enjoy the writing, not at all, I just think those videos might give you a perspective on the writing you hadn't considered. With the exception of the two Z specials. I personally believe the extended content of the franchise (GT, Super, the movies, etc.) have diluted the overall quality of the series, and that viewed in isolation from all that, the original series, be it the manga or anime, are very well written and produced series. In fact, Mark proves that the original story's writing can hold its own against the best Shonen out there.

DB: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_TZ2jFYwas

Saiyan arc: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn3DRjdM6W4

Namek arc: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apPvqaFqhMk

Cell arc: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2apG5PBBb8

Buu arc:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJizHx9G3uQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ju2W0Snbm8Y

[Kenji]

I will be completely honest, I did give his videos a try, and... His usual demeanor often comes off as disingenuous and either bashing things or praising things based on popular consensus. He often feels afraid to criticize anything about the manga's original run and not denounce any of its many, many, many problems because that would land him in hot water with the fanbase and hurt his status as a micro-celebrity YouTube influencer, a special kind of people which I hate and cannot trust a single word that comes out of their mouths.

Just try to watch his Daima review video, in which he declares that everything good Daima does is thanks to Toriyama, and everything wrong with it must be someone else's fault, even though Daima is by Toriyama's own admission the project he invested the most on out of the modern era. He comes off as incredibly hypocritical, trying to spin Daima's premise of turning everybody into kids as if it's some kind of good thing Toriyama did while simultaneously bashing GT for... doing the exact same thing. As if that premise actually had any deep narrative use behind it other than serving as GT nostalgia-pandering.

In short, he sounds like a very narrow-minded individual who bases an art work's merit through these very simple lens:
"X is a masterpiece, because TORIYAMA!!!"

A more balanced review series would be MistareFusion's. They don't pull any punches and ain't afraid to voice what they think of Toriyama's storytelling. They themselves admit they love Dragon Ball despite its flaws and their dissections often get people thinking they hate Dragon Ball, not unlike what I'm going through in this thread.

[The Dark Knight]

I just finished the Grand Magic Games arc of Fairy Tail, and let me tell you, that's how you do a long tournament arc. This arc was the same length as Super's Tournament of Power (50+ episodes), but unlike Super which was just mindless fighting from start to finish, This arc had great variety in how the characters were tested. On top of that, there was another plot running in the background to break things up a bit and keep tension and speculation high. To make things better, it didn't center around 80 characters (65 of them being unknown) where no one got any real chance to shine and develop, but instead on 40 characters. Also, some of the characters that weren't part of the main group were introduced in previous arcs, which enabled Mashima to get the readers and viewers invested in them as well, and not just on the main heroes.

Fairy Tail of all anime being able to run circles around Dragon Ball shows just how far the franchise has fallen since Super became a thing.

[Kid Buu]

A more balanced review series would be MistareFusion's. They don't pull any punches and ain't afraid to voice what they think of Toriyama's storytelling. They themselves admit they love Dragon Ball despite its flaws and their dissections often get people thinking they hate Dragon Ball, not unlike what I'm going through in this thread.

More importantly, MistareFusion has video on how awesome PGSM is!

I just finished the Grand Magic Games arc of Fairy Tail, and let me tell you, that's how you do a long tournament arc. This arc was the same length as Super's Tournament of Power (50+ episodes), but unlike Super which was just mindless fighting from start to finish, This arc had great variety in how the characters were tested. On top of that, there was another plot running in the background to break things up a bit and keep tension and speculation high. To make things better, it didn't center around 80 characters (65 of them being unknown) where no one got any real chance to shine and develop, but instead on 40 characters. Also, some of the characters that weren't part of the main group were introduced in previous arcs, which enabled Mashima to get the readers and viewers invested in them as well, and not just on the main heroes.

Fairy Tail of all anime being able to run circles around Dragon Ball shows just how far the franchise has fallen since Super became a thing.

Damn that makes me want to watch that just for comparison sake, but I don't really have the time to watch 50+ episodes on a whim. I might just put on some episodes in the background to compare.

Somewhat related, but I always see people say Kid Buu is a boring final boss but I really like him as he's basically just Leatherface as a DB villain. In fact, I find him more entertaining as a final boss than Omega Shenron (GT), Jiren (Super) and Gomah (Daima). Though I do like Gomah.

[The Dark Knight]

I always see people say Kid Buu is a boring final boss but I really like him as he's basically just Leatherface as a DB villain. In fact, I find him more entertaining as a final boss than Omega Shenron (GT), Jiren (Super) and Gomah (Daima).

I absolutely love Kid Buu, and would take him over any of these three any day. I think one of the reasons why Kid Buu works so well, besides the character itself being well-written, is that we don't get a lot of him. In fact, I think this is a unique aspect of the Buu arc that I would like to see done again, which is switching up the antagonist every so often. From the start of the arc until everyone left with Shin, there really wasn't a main antagonist (I guess you could count Spopovich and Yamu). Then, Babidi and Dabura took over that role for a bit, before it switched over to Fat Buu. After that we switched over to Super Buu, who he himself changed once he absorbed Piccolo and Gohan. Then finally, we got Kid Buu for the final stretch. None of these characters could carry the entire things alone, but together, Toriyama did a great job mixing it up. I think the Tournament of Power would have greatly benefited from such a structure, as Jiren was in no way capable of carrying that arc on his own.

[Kid Buu]

I always see people say Kid Buu is a boring final boss but I really like him as he's basically just Leatherface as a DB villain. In fact, I find him more entertaining as a final boss than Omega Shenron (GT), Jiren (Super) and Gomah (Daima).

I absolutely love Kid Buu, and would take him over any of these three any day. I think one of the reasons why Kid Buu works so well, besides the character itself being well-written, is that we don't get a lot of him. In fact, I think this is a unique aspect of the Buu arc that I would like to see done again, which is switching up the antagonist every so often. From the start of the arc until everyone left with Shin, there really wasn't a main antagonist (I guess you could count Spopovich and Yamu). Then, Babidi and Dabura took over that role for a bit, before it switched over to Fat Buu. After that we switched over to Super Buu, who he himself changed once he absorbed Piccolo and Gohan. Then finally, we got Kid Buu for the final stretch. None of these characters could carry the entire things alone, but together, Toriyama did a great job mixing it up. I think the Tournament of Power would have greatly benefited from such a structure, as Jiren was in no way capable of carrying that arc on his own.

Yeah I agree with all that, I also got horror movie vibes from early Super Buu:



That scene where he is just sitting on Kami's Lookout watching the time glass is insanely creepy. Subtle, but one of my favourite moments.

[The Dark Knight]

Yeah I agree with all that, I also got horror movie vibes from early Super Buu:



That scene where he is just sitting on Kami's Lookout watching the time glass is insanely creepy. Subtle, but one of my favourite moments.

The Buu arc is severely underrated; this is just one of many, many great scenes this arc has to offer. I don't think fans realize just how hard it is to end a series as big as Dragon Ball was back in the day, much less end it while maintaining its quality. When the Buu arc started, the series had already been going on for 8 years, so to add an additional 2 years of story to that while also wrapping everything up, and it turning out as good as it did, is nothing short of a miracle. What likely made things even harder was the fact that the series was just coming off a major winning streak that started all the way back with the 22nd Tenkaichi, and went all the way up to Cell, so the pressure on Toriyama and Toei to live up to expectations must've been massive.

[JulieYBM]

I just finished the Grand Magic Games arc of Fairy Tail, and let me tell you, that's how you do a long tournament arc. This arc was the same length as Super's Tournament of Power (50+ episodes), but unlike Super which was just mindless fighting from start to finish, This arc had great variety in how the characters were tested. On top of that, there was another plot running in the background to break things up a bit and keep tension and speculation high. To make things better, it didn't center around 80 characters (65 of them being unknown) where no one got any real chance to shine and develop, but instead on 40 characters. Also, some of the characters that weren't part of the main group were introduced in previous arcs, which enabled Mashima to get the readers and viewers invested in them as well, and not just on the main heroes.

Fairy Tail of all anime being able to run circles around Dragon Ball shows just how far the franchise has fallen since Super became a thing.

Tomioka Atsuhiro wrote for both arcs. For the Grand Magic Games arc, he wrote about thirteen episodes, going by Wikipedia. I have not watched the animated adaptions or read the original Fairy Tail comic, but Tomioka is historically one of the best writers for battle and rivalry-centric stories (his Pokemon stuff is the cream of that franchise's crop). Which is to say, I would not be surprised if Tomioka's own personal writing traits helped make his episodes better for whatever reason. He wrote the best episodes of the Tournament of Power arc and oversaw weaving the characters' individual arcs together—in so much is allowed by Toriyama and executives with a series like Dragon Ball.

Have you seen the animated adaption of Yuu Yuu Hakusho? The Dark Tournament arc of that series—Episodes 26-66—is typically what I would assign as the gold standard of how to handle a long tournament arc. There's a nice mix of melodrama, side-dealings with the tournament organizers, and comedy that helps to balance out the fights, which are themselves really good at feeling like the Urameshi Team is always on the back foot.

[The Dark Knight]

Have you seen the animated adaption of Yuu Yuu Hakusho? The Dark Tournament arc of that series—Episodes 26-66—is typically what I would assign as the gold standard of how to handle a long tournament arc. There's a nice mix of melodrama, side-dealings with the tournament organizers, and comedy that helps to balance out the fights, which are themselves really good at feeling like the Urameshi Team is always on the back foot.

Yep; it was one the best arcs I've ever seen. The series as a whole, with the exception of the final arc, was of the highest quality episode to episode; I definitely need to watch again if I get the chance. It's such a shame Togashi wasn't able to end it on a high note, as the concept of the final arc was really good.

[JulieYBM]

Have you seen the animated adaption of Yuu Yuu Hakusho? The Dark Tournament arc of that series—Episodes 26-66—is typically what I would assign as the gold standard of how to handle a long tournament arc. There's a nice mix of melodrama, side-dealings with the tournament organizers, and comedy that helps to balance out the fights, which are themselves really good at feeling like the Urameshi Team is always on the back foot.

Yep; it was one the best arcs I've ever seen. The series as a whole, with the exception of the final arc, was of the highest quality episode to episode; I definitely need to watch again if I get the chance. It's such a shame Togashi wasn't able to end it on a high note, as the concept of the final arc was really good.

I keep meaning to do a rewatch of the series but I get distracted by personal projects that I'm working on lol. I recall Nishio Tetsuya (NARUTO Character Designer) discussed how the Shinbou Akiyuki & Wakabayashi Atsushi team kept pushing their episodes to the next level of creativity and quality during the Dark Tournament arc that it inspired everyone else on the project to step up their games, too, which I feel like you can definitely see reflected at the arc goes on. The following Black Chapter arc is also really well done, even after Wakabayashi leaves the series and Shinbou stops storyboarding the episodes he directs. There's a real sense of making the characters' emotions come through not just through the dialogue and the voice acting but through the use of colors, movement and shadows that the brain automatically absorbs and understands on an emotional-level.

The Three Kings arc is really quaint and not exactly what its initially set up to be but I do still enjoy it for what it is. I think a retelling that foregoes the friendly 'battle shounen tournament' and plays the arc as an increasingly dark war would be a fun way to do a retelling some day but otherwise it remains an arc that I want to engage with more beyond the one or two times I've seen it lol.

[Kid Buu]

I rewatched YYH and enjoyed the Chapter Black arc the most. The last arc I really struggled to finish but thankfully it is short.

Would you recommend Fairy Tail?

[The Dark Knight]

Would you recommend Fairy Tail?

Absolutely yes; it's definitely worth watching. If you're someone who doesn't have too much fee time, then you're in luck, because the arcs are generally on the short side, with the tournament I mentioned being the longest at 53 episodes. Here's a breakdown of the arcs:

https://fairytail.fandom.com/wiki/Story_Arcs

Skipping the filler arcs brings you at around 270 or so episodes. The last arc from the original manga is the Alvarez arc, as the following ones are from the sequel series by another author and artist.

[Kid Buu]

I rewatched YYH and enjoyed the Chapter Black arc the most. The last arc I really struggled to finish but thankfully it is short.

Would you recommend Fairy Tail?

Absolutely yes; it's definitely worth watching. If you're someone who doesn't have too much fee time, then you're in luck, because the arcs are generally on the short side, with the tournament I mentioned being the longest at 53 episodes. Here's a breakdown of the arcs:

https://fairytail.fandom.com/wiki/Story_Arcs

Skipping the filler arcs brings you at around 270 or so episodes. The last arc from the original manga is the Alvarez arc, as the following ones are form the sequel series by another author and artist.

I know every anime is different but I always tend to enjoy filler.

I'll add it to my backlog, which means I'll probably get to it in 2028.

I only just finished Super + Daima this year, and that took me 6 months.

[Kenji]

Yu Yu Hakusho really goes for two great arcs, and then the last one is shit lol
Admittedly, the mangaka wanted to end it at Chapter Black, but was pressured to keep going.

[Kid Buu]

Yeah I'm happy to say the series ended with Sensui for me.

[ABED]

Really? I love the Three Kings arc.

Yu Yu Hakusho is one of my favorites and I got into it because of Dragon Ball. I usually end up going straight from one into the other upon rewatches.

[Kid Buu]

I can see similarities but ultimately I feel the shows are quite different. I prefer the fight scenes in DB, but feel YYH's characters were more redefined.