"Dragon Ball Z: Kakarot" Official Discussion Thread

[Kaboom]

They already did Daima DLC, so why wouldn't they want to do "Daima but better" DLC with GT too?

[The Dark Knight]

The thing about a GT DLC is, why would they bother?

Because it makes money and fans support it. There's a reason it still gets merchandise and video game representation. The entirety of Daima was inspired by it, so it's clearly popular enough to look to for inspiration.

GT is still seen as the weakest entry into the franchise when it comes to the shows.

That's extremely debatable; I think an argument could be made for GT being the strongest of the 3 sequels we've gotten up to this point.

GT also is the series with the least amount of Troiyama involvement.

If this was a criteria they considered, nothing from the old movies or GT would get any representation anywhere.

[angeldreamZ004]

The thing about a GT DLC is, why would they bother? GT is still seen as the weakest entry into the franchise when it comes to the shows.

Z is seen by a lot of fans as the best of the shows, OG DB gets lost in the shuffle because too many people skip it despite it coming out BEFORE Z but still gets respect, & Super is seen as a step down from Z, but a major step up from GT. It makes more sense to adapt Super & its associated movies.

I think GT getting small representation in the games has nothing to do with fans viewing it as the weakest entry in the series, but a result of its popularity, which can be said for Pilaf-Majunior Dragon Ball as well, but the difference is that the first part of original series was and still is popular amongst the Japanese when compared to the rest of the world, which is why we got multiple games dedicated to that first half of the original series. Unlike GT, which only got one game dedicated to it (Dragon Ball GT Transformation), and this purely talks about how unpopular it was in Japan, as it was made for a US release only, and yes, I refuse to consider Final Bout a GT game, only the US decided to call it "GT Final Bout" after all! and the series only got some major popularity in the west, so technically there were no games dedicated to GT in Japan.
So this affects how the series and its characters make their way into the videogames, as even when you look at DLC content, it's limited, and they barely tend to adapt the arcs.
Super in the other way is the opposite. I think it has nothing to do with fans liking it after all a lot of fans complain about Super. But in the end it was very popular and the only Dragon Ball post-Z that was able to go beyond the bubble both inside Japan and International territories. So they more willing to include its characters and adapt its stories in videogames for this reason, or else, they would've been a lot more selective in regards to its content just like how they are still very selective with GT content to this day. (EDIT for a example: you'll hardly see the likes of General Rilldo in GT representation, but when it comes to Super representation, you'll see Rabrianne, Rosi and Kakunsa quite often)

I don't know much about Daima's popularity in comparison, but I think the fact that DLCs covering it story in Kakarot shortly after the show ended, and the other games also not taking too long to include its characters can speak for it itself, and a lot of fans complain about that series as well.
The first part of the original series got such a spotlight in the latest trailer for the Sparking Zero Expansive DLC in a way that GT never got, which for me again represents how they use the popularity in Japan and Worldwide as reference for what to do with these games' content.

As for the part where you talk about Toriyama I agree with everything. It's actually also the reason I believe Xenoverse 3 won't have GT content in the base game, as I feel it's going to be a Toriyama-centric game.

[The Dark Knight]

As for the part where you talk about Toriyama I agree with everything. It's actually also the reason I believe Xenoverse 3 won't have GT content in the base game, as I feel it's going to be a Toriyama-centric game.

According to Ajay, some of the new characters that were presented as if they were designed by Toriyama, were actually designed by someone else copying his art style. Like the other projects he's been involved with since 2008, his involvement with this game may have been exaggerated for marketing purposes.

[angeldreamZ004]

According to Ajay, some of the new characters that were presented as if they were designed by Toriyama, were actually designed by someone else copying his art style. Like the other projects he's been involved with since 2008, his involvement with this game may have been exaggerated for marketing purposes.

Thank you for mentioning this as I completed missed that post. Well, Ajay said that some of those new characters that weren't designed by him are Bulma and Brett, and two arts showing them mimicking his style, but it was never made clear they were made by him or not.
I decided to hunt for any possible instance where it was said that these or more characters were designed by him other than the two J-1000 player characters, and indeed I couldn't find any, but there is this very weird comment from Iyoku in a video at the latest Games Battle Hour, where he says in response to Hirano who mentions the variety of characters in the 2D animated trailer:

"Yes, many appeared! Some might even be new characters you haven't seen before. And of course, these characters are based on Toriyama's original illustrations, with his creative involvement extending across many aspects. I'm sure everyone is excited to know what kind of characters they are"

Then minutes later at the presentation, Hirano shows the two player characters, but before showing the female one, he says "As Mr. Iyoku said in the video, there's actually another character originating by Toriyama-sensei" then proceeds to show the female player character. Then they show Bulma and Brett, but they don't say at any moment if Toriyama made them.

(link from 5:15:40 to 5:22:27)

I think you can interpret it the way you want, because at least what Iyoku said is very confusing and potentially contradictory with what was said by Hirano.

Anyway, if it's really the case, then they found a really good way to mislead the fans without lying. If you think about it the latest reveal for Dragon Quest XII followed a similar if not same strategy too. They said that Toriyama created the character, then they presented the art showing the character design, but they didn't say that Toriyama actually made the illustration (that one, being easier to judge as a different artist though, given how different it looks from the usual style we saw from him)
So in Dragon Ball's case it's really concerning. In the case of XV3, what they say mostly is that Toriyama was actually behind the creation of the world, the setting, and they don't show anything, we can only to trust what they say basically. They are very careful about what they say in details, but I think more people need to be aware of this anyway.

[Mr Baggins]

I'm not interested in content from what I view as the worst of the three sequels by a considerable margin. But I'd rather not yuck somebody else's yum, so more power to whoever wants and gets more GT representation for something.

To be honest, I don't think I'm interested in any future content for this game. Most of these DLCs have been wasted potential, including the better ones.

Kakarot had a good run. Take it out to the shed.

[Scsigs]

The thing about a GT DLC is, why would they bother?

Because it makes money and fans support it. There's a reason it still gets merchandise and video game representation. The entirety of Daima was inspired by it, so it's clearly popular enough to look to for inspiration.

GT gets video game rep because there ARE some good things about it, but we haven't gotten a GT-centric game since...Transformation? And before that was Final Bout when the show was fresh in Japan. After that, it's gotten its arcs adapted into the Sparking series, Budokai 3, & Xenoverse. Outside of those, the characters usually just show up in rosters for the fighting games. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they're there because I'm of the opinion that GT had good concepts & ideas, but largely failed in the execution of them, but that's about it.
Merch...I don't know. There's probably more that gets released in Japan than overseas, but there's not a lot that's been released lately. I have the Figuarts of SS4 Goku & Vegeta because they're fucking cool designs & would like to get the few others that have been released, but that's about it.

GT is still seen as the weakest entry into the franchise when it comes to the shows.

That's extremely debatable; I think an argument could be made for GT being the strongest of the 3 sequels we've gotten up to this point.

I mean, you could make that argument & I've seen it be made, but if we're being honest, that's a minority opinion & I don't see it.

GT also is the series with the least amount of Toriyama involvement.

If this was a criteria they considered, nothing from the old movies or GT would get any representation anywhere.

I mean, yeah, but I'm not talking about them not getting representation. You're also ignoring the point I was making when pointing out the criteria that the devs were seemingly using for what qualifies as the content they'd license & adapt into the game.
1. The stuff Toriyama had a hand in; the manga, Super, the last 4 DB movies, & Daima.
2. The animes adapting the manga, which accounts for why they adapted the Bardock TV special & not Minus (also the fact that Minus doesn't have enough of a story or content to adapt into a DLC campaign).
3. What most fans love most.
4. Recency.

Due to these factors, them licensing & adapting GT wouldn't make any sense. Hell, they didn't even license the pre-BOG movies for this game either. We also have to take into account what's most popular. GT has its characters & stories that some fans like, but Super has a more immediate fanbase that they'd see as more lucrative to adapt into the game, especially since it's getting the cutdown remaster treatment. This is part of why they licensed & adapted Daima when it was more fresh...even if it took forever to come out because of the behind the scenes BS that happened after Toriyama died. Thus, if they DO do another round of DLCs, it'd be smarter to assume they'd go for Super.

I think GT getting small representation in the games has nothing to do with fans viewing it as the weakest entry in the series, but a result of its popularity, which can be said for Pilaf-Majunior Dragon Ball as well, but the difference is that the first part of original series was and still is popular amongst the Japanese when compared to the rest of the world, which is why we got multiple games dedicated to that first half of the original series. Unlike GT, which only got one game dedicated to it (Dragon Ball GT Transformation), and this purely talks about how unpopular it was in Japan, as it was made for a US release only, and yes, I refuse to consider Final Bout a GT game, only the US decided to call it "GT Final Bout" after all! and the series only got some major popularity in the west, so technically there were no games dedicated to GT in Japan.
So this affects how the series and its characters make their way into the videogames, as even when you look at DLC content, it's limited, and they barely tend to adapt the arcs.
Super in the other way is the opposite. I think it has nothing to do with fans liking it after all a lot of fans complain about Super. But in the end it was very popular and the only Dragon Ball post-Z that was able to go beyond the bubble both inside Japan and International territories. So they more willing to include its characters and adapt its stories in videogames for this reason, or else, they would've been a lot more selective in regards to its content just like how they are still very selective with GT content to this day. (EDIT for a example: you'll hardly see the likes of General Rilldo in GT representation, but when it comes to Super representation, you'll see Rabrianne, Rosi and Kakunsa quite often).

I don't know much about Daima's popularity in comparison, but I think the fact that DLCs covering it story in Kakarot shortly after the show ended, and the other games also not taking too long to include its characters can speak for it itself, and a lot of fans complain about that series as well.
The first part of the original series got such a spotlight in the latest trailer for the Sparking Zero Expansive DLC in a way that GT never got, which for me again represents how they use the popularity in Japan and Worldwide as reference for what to do with these games' content.

As for the part where you talk about Toriyama I agree with everything. It's actually also the reason I believe Xenoverse 3 won't have GT content in the base game, as I feel it's going to be a Toriyama-centric game.

I don't know why people think I mean GT getting representation in games as a whole. I'm all for GT getting representation. I just think it's a fool's errand to think that they're gonna waste the time, money, & effort to adapt GT into Kakarot. Hell, even GT's representation in other DB games has been dwindling in the last decade & change. I think the last game to adapt GT into levels was...Xenoverse 1? And then those levels got ported into XV2 when they released a DLC putting all the XV1 levels into it. FighterZ & Sparking Zero only had the characters as part of the fighting game rosters to give GT fans some acknowledgement. And even SZ forgot Super 17 in the base roster for some reason.
I mean, whether or not it's meant to be a GT game is irrelevant, if we're being honest. It came out while GT was airing in Japan & half the main characters have their designs from GT in it while they included SS4 Goku, GT Goku, Trunks, & Pan. Although, they didn't include any of the antagonists from GT which is...odd. The fact that it was labelled a GT game outside of Japan is also weird considering GT didn't have a proper licensed release in English-speaking markets outside of Japan until 2003.
I think the first game to properly include GT characters at all after Final Bout was Budokai 3, then GT: Transformation. And even then, it's only the hits in the games that they show up in. GT Goku, Pan, Trunks, Vegeta, Baby, Uub, Super 17, Nuova, Eis, & Omega Shenron (different forms inclusive). Meanwhile, Z, Super, & OG DB usually get a lot more representation. Hell, in Budokai 3, SS4 was just a transformation for Z Goku & Vegeta & Pan only shows up on the title screen with Giru with Omega Shenron being the only villain to be included in it. Infinite World would then step it up with the GT rep, but barely anyone played that game & it hasn't been rereleased ever, sadly. Even for the people who like GT & think it's an underrated gem, they have to admit that it's not escaping the awkward middle child allegations, let's be real here.
I also think Super has more readily likable & marketable new characters it introduced than GT did & did a lot more interesting things with them. Beerus & Whis are the best characters to come out of the DB revival bar none, Zamasu & Goku Black are an interesting take on a Supreme Kai gone insane with a god complex, & a lot of the Universe 6 & 11 characters are pretty fun...even if they gave some of the U6 Saiyans unearned power-ups to catch them up to their U7 counterparts faster & Jiren is just a brick with an unearned sense of superiority. The new characters introduced in Super are also good on their own without any connections to the main characters. GT, all of the villains have connections to the ensemble cast in 1 way or another. Baby's the result of Tuffle scientists wanting to get vengeance on the Saiyans, Super 17's just the result of Gero & Miu working together to somehow make a doppelganger of 17 & fuse him with the original who somehow they brainwash into being evil again, & the Shadow Dragons are just the results of the more selfish wishes made on the Dragon Balls since the series began. Super also uses 17 WAY better than GT ever did & made him an actual character rather than a plot device to get the next arc rolling, don't @ me.

As a disclaimer: I don't think GT using previous continuity to inform their own story & antagonists is a bad thing (especially since Toriyama did it several times in the manga), but Super having characters that don't rely on previous continuity makes them more readily approachable for people & they don't have any baggage they have to deal with.

Daima was mainly adapted into this game because of 2 things that I said before.
1. New DB content written by Toriyama.
2. Recency.
Xenoverse 2 & Sparking Zero also got DLC packs that dropped several of the Daima characters into them. Kakarot, however, took the time to actually adapt the story of Daima into a DLC expansion since it's not a fighting game. They licensed that content as soon as they could to be able to capitalize on it coming out. They didn't really care about its perception at the time.

XV3, we don't really know what's gonna be in it yet. I'm looking forward to it, especially since the last several DLCs of XV2 showed a lot of promise & I was continually pleasantly surprised with what they did with them. I do think that they'll definitely be focusing more on the core aspects of DB from Toriyama's writings rather than the more fringe elements like the older movies & GT, but we'll see.

[The Dark Knight]

GT gets video game rep because there ARE some good things about it, but we haven't gotten a GT-centric game since...Transformation? And before that was Final Bout when the show was fresh in Japan.

Just so you know, Final Bout and Transformations are actually great games, we just all suck at gaming and couldn't figure them out. As for everything else you said, I mostly agree with it, despite liking GT personally. I will add that the original DB was also neglected for the longest time, even more so than GT (XV had no OG characters for example), but that seems to be changing now. Correct me if I'm wrong, but SZ has the most DB & GT characters of any game, so hopefully that results in more regular representation for both moving forward.

[angeldreamZ004]

I don't know why people think I mean GT getting representation in games as a whole. I'm all for GT getting representation. I just think it's a fool's errand to think that they're gonna waste the time, money, & effort to adapt GT into Kakarot. Hell, even GT's representation in other DB games has been dwindling in the last decade & change. I think the last game to adapt GT into levels was...Xenoverse 1? And then those levels got ported into XV2 when they released a DLC putting all the XV1 levels into it. FighterZ & Sparking Zero only had the characters as part of the fighting game rosters to give GT fans some acknowledgement. And even SZ forgot Super 17 in the base roster for some reason.

I understand, what I actually tried to do was dive into that aspect of the popularity and how GT has its fans and people who like its stories and characters but not enough to make it popular especially in its home country, as I think you didn't explore it in your previous post and how it affects the marketing and products based on it. But now with your new post you it pretty much sums up the idea, so I have really nothing to add to what you said, just a few things.
For Super 17, I don't know if it's true, but prior to the DLC, dataminers made discoveries about him and the many other characters we are only seeing now. So they didn't forgot but had to cut him due to the release schedule I believe.

I mean, whether or not it's meant to be a GT game is irrelevant, if we're being honest. It came out while GT was airing in Japan & half the main characters have their designs from GT in it while they included SS4 Goku, GT Goku, Trunks, & Pan. Although, they didn't include any of the antagonists from GT which is...odd. The fact that it was labelled a GT game outside of Japan is also weird considering GT didn't have a proper licensed release in English-speaking markets outside of Japan until 2003.

I can't understand the logic behind it either, so I view it as General DB Brand game. But actually there was at least Oozaru Baby as boss.

Daima was mainly adapted into this game because of 2 things that I said before.
1. New DB content written by Toriyama.
2. Recency.
Xenoverse 2 & Sparking Zero also got DLC packs that dropped several of the Daima characters into them. Kakarot, however, took the time to actually adapt the story of Daima into a DLC expansion since it's not a fighting game. They licensed that content as soon as they could to be able to capitalize on it coming out. They didn't really care about its perception at the time.

I agree but I add one more point, which is that I think if Daima, let's imagine, was flopping during its run, they very likely would be much slower in using its content in the games, even if it was made by Torayma. I'm sure we would still get the Kakarot DLCs, but for XV2, Sparking Zero I believe they would've been more selective in regards to using its characters (for some reason they already are with the Tamigamis, as only Kakarot, the mobile and card games use them so far). But we live the complete opposite of that reality, so it's hard to imagine, I could be wrong and the two points you made would be enough for them regardless of popularity.

About everything else you said I agree.

[Scsigs]

GT gets video game rep because there ARE some good things about it, but we haven't gotten a GT-centric game since...Transformation? And before that was Final Bout when the show was fresh in Japan.

Just so you know, Final Bout and Transformations are actually great games, we just all suck at gaming and couldn't figure them out. As for everything else you said, I mostly agree with it, despite liking GT personally. I will add that the original DB was also neglected for the longest time, even more so than GT (XV had no OG characters for example), but that seems to be changing now. Correct me if I'm wrong, but SZ has the most DB & GT characters of any game, so hopefully that results in more regular representation for both moving forward.

From what I understand, Final Bout suffers from late 90s PS1 jank inherent in fighting games at the time.
Transformation, I played & I think I still have my original GBA cart of it. It was an ok beat-em-up made by the people who made the Legacy of Goku games, so I'll give it its props.
I'd say for a while, OG DB got about as much rep in the fighting games as GT, it's just that that series wasn't focused as much on the fighting for most of its run, so there's not a ton of characters from it that don't also appear in Z or Super. I think the main characters from it that appear in games are the Pilaf gang in their mech, Mercenary Tao, Shen, King Piccolo, Devilman, Arale, kid Goku, & Chichi. There's characters that'll get their OG DB outfits & haircuts in games as alternate skins (hell, King Piccolo is an alternate skin for Piccolo Jr. in Budokai 3 you unlock with a code), but that's mainly it. I know I'm probably forgetting more fringe characters that appeared in Sparking Meteor/BT3, but that game was stretching to include more characters after the previous 2 games already had who you'd expect. I think since the games & Toei are hyper focusing on Toriyama-written content (to the point where they're bullshitting which stuff was actually written & designed by him), we'll get more OG rep in the games, which is only a good thing. OG DB needs more recognition.

I don't know why people think I mean GT getting representation in games as a whole. I'm all for GT getting representation. I just think it's a fool's errand to think that they're gonna waste the time, money, & effort to adapt GT into Kakarot. Hell, even GT's representation in other DB games has been dwindling in the last decade & change. I think the last game to adapt GT into levels was...Xenoverse 1? And then those levels got ported into XV2 when they released a DLC putting all the XV1 levels into it. FighterZ & Sparking Zero only had the characters as part of the fighting game rosters to give GT fans some acknowledgement. And even SZ forgot Super 17 in the base roster for some reason.

I understand, what I actually tried to do was dive into that aspect of the popularity and how GT has its fans and people who like its stories and characters but not enough to make it popular especially in its home country, as I think you didn't explore it in your previous post and how it affects the marketing and products based on it. But now with your new post you it pretty much sums up the idea, so I have really nothing to add to what you said, just a few things.
For Super 17, I don't know if it's true, but prior to the DLC, dataminers made discoveries about him and the many other characters we are only seeing now. So they didn't forgot but had to cut him due to the release schedule I believe.

That would also make sense since SZ was very much rushed out to meet the release date for Daima. It missing so much content outside of the VS & story modes (as well as certain story parts for some of the characters) that they're only adding now with the new expansion pass only shows that.

I mean, whether or not it's meant to be a GT game is irrelevant, if we're being honest. It came out while GT was airing in Japan & half the main characters have their designs from GT in it while they included SS4 Goku, GT Goku, Trunks, & Pan. Although, they didn't include any of the antagonists from GT which is...odd. The fact that it was labelled a GT game outside of Japan is also weird considering GT didn't have a proper licensed release in English-speaking markets outside of Japan until 2003.

I can't understand the logic behind it either, so I view it as General DB Brand game. But actually there was at least Oozaru Baby as boss.

I mean, it's a weird mix of Z & GT stuff made at a time where Z had just ended & GT was airing. It'd be cool to get a documentary or something about the development of that game to really get an idea of why it turned out like it did.

Daima was mainly adapted into this game because of 2 things that I said before.
1. New DB content written by Toriyama.
2. Recency.
Xenoverse 2 & Sparking Zero also got DLC packs that dropped several of the Daima characters into them. Kakarot, however, took the time to actually adapt the story of Daima into a DLC expansion since it's not a fighting game. They licensed that content as soon as they could to be able to capitalize on it coming out. They didn't really care about its perception at the time.

I agree but I add one more point, which is that I think if Daima, let's imagine, was flopping during its run, they very likely would be much slower in using its content in the games, even if it was made by Toriyama. I'm sure we would still get the Kakarot DLCs, but for XV2, Sparking Zero I believe they would've been more selective in regards to using its characters (for some reason they already are with the Tamigamis, as only Kakarot, the mobile and card games use them so far). But we live the complete opposite of that reality, so it's hard to imagine, I could be wrong and the two points you made would be enough for them regardless of popularity.

About everything else you said I agree.

XV2 & Sparking Zero as well as Kakarot, the DLCs would've been planned out for months while Daima was in production. Look at how Bandai Namco has shifted their output for DB games. At least since XV2, several of these games have been longterm ongoing live services that add expansions as long as possible. XV2 had 10 years' worth of content support, FighterZ continually added DLC fighters, Kakarot was supported way longer than anyone expected with 3 DLC expansions, & Sparking Zero looks to be like a midpoint between XV2 & FighterZ in terms of what the content its getting is. XV2 capitalized on Super airing alongside it releasing DLCs, so it makes perfect sense that the other games would do the same with Daima. Obviously, not everything's gonna be capitalized on (you bring up the Tamagamis, but Kakarot is a story-focused game & they're plot important to Daima's story, so of course they were gonna be adapted) & even Kakarot truncated a lot of stuff from Daima's story (in 1 case, they left out the Fusion Bugs, which were definitely a dropped plot point because Toriyama forgot about them in between writing the 2 halves of Daima's storyline), so that's to be expected. I mean, hell, GT when it's adapted gets the first 15 episodes skipped outside of explaining the Black Star Dragon Balls, how Goku's a kid again, & where Baby comes from. That's about it. And even then, not always. So, you can't always expect everything's gonna be adapted. A lot of the games also have different priorities from each other, so you get some things in 1 that you don't get in the others.