Trunks should've been the hero of the Cell arc

[Kenji]

Inb4 "That's way too melodramatic and not Toriyama-esque at all, please don't criticize my favorite writer for his blatant skill issues."

This kind of response is not an actual response -- it's dismissive and unwelcome.

If you want to have a real conversation, please do! If you don't have anything to say, you don't have anything to say.

You're absolutely right.
I don't think I have anything else to say in this forum where being "dismissive and unwelcome" is only ever a problem when someone with an unpopular opinion ever says something. Wild that this needs explaining, but something something Dragon Ball bad. Good-bye and good riddance <3

[VegettoEX]

Likewise, folks, please don't needlessly respond with bizarre questions or attempts at comedy to these types of replies -- it just clogs things up, confuses things more, and is a poor showing all around. A couple of these short nothing posts have been removed.

We're here for good-faith, genuine, respectful conversation between real human beings. All opinions are welcome as long as they fit that mold. Thanks!

[kiarasuraru]

Sometimes I do wonder how the zeitgeist around Dragon Ball would have changed had Boo ended with Gohan/Goten/Trunks saving the day.

For better or for worse, Goku and Vegeta being the ones winning it, with the fabled Goku & Vegeta team-up, permanently settled an "image" into the franchise. It was the final battle after all. It's basically telling us that Goku and Vegeta are the heroes and together they can do the impossible.
The others by not being present during the climax are no longer "viable" as the "heroes".
In the alternate universe where Gohan, Goten, Trunks, maybe even Piccolo, were there during the final battle the entire perception of Dragon Ball as a whole may have drastically changed since, as again, it wouldn't be about Goku and Vegeta "fusing", be it literally, as Vegito, or metaphorically, by working together.
Even if Goku had been the one to get the kill, had all those been there, their mere presence would have shaped the perception of the entire franchise for years and years to come.

It's not like Toriyama was thinking about how ending the series that way would have such an impact and see how the characters would be seen in the future, as far he was concerned this was it and that was that, but it goes to show how choices made in the moment can have massive ripple effects decades into the future.

[BernardoCairo]

Good-bye and good riddance <3

I might as well just come back now

[Kid Buu]

For better or for worse, Goku and Vegeta being the ones winning it, with the fabled Goku & Vegeta team-up, permanently settled an "image" into the franchise. It was the final battle after all. It's basically telling us that Goku and Vegeta are the heroes and together they can do the impossible.

I see this opinion a lot but I don't see it. After the Kid Buu battle, there was DBZ Movie 13, Path to Power and GT - none of which I'd say are Vegeta-centric.

I'd say the Super era with BoG, RoF, etc. is what established this "Goku & Vegeta" image of the series. Even then, more recent content such as Super Hero and Daima is somewhat pushing away from that too.

[BernardoCairo]

I don't think Trunks needed to be the main character to have a good arc. I really like his time with Vegeta, and the fact that he learns to trust himself as an actual hero/fighter while being in the present.
If anything, I wish he had never come back. Super ended up regressing his character, which I don't think was worth it. For me, Trunks was always that special character that showed up in one iconic arc. I like that.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Super ended up regressing his character, which I don't think was worth it. For me, Trunks was always that special character that showed up in one iconic arc. I like that.

It also kinda undid all of his successes in the Cell arc. He finally got rid of the evil in his timeline, and now it's all erased and he's forced to live in an alt version of it with an alt version of him, it' so ridiculous

[BernardoCairo]

It also kinda undid all of his successes in the Cell arc. He finally got rid of the evil in his timeline, and now it's all erased and he's forced to live in an alt version of it with an alt version of him, it' so ridiculous

Yep, that was terrible. It's also a bit ridiculous to think that Trunks lived in two different post-apocalyptic times.

[SupremeKai25]

Super ended up regressing his character, which I don't think was worth it. For me, Trunks was always that special character that showed up in one iconic arc. I like that.

It also kinda undid all of his successes in the Cell arc. He finally got rid of the evil in his timeline, and now it's all erased and he's forced to live in an alt version of it with an alt version of him, it' so ridiculous

The characters in the story and the writers see it as a good ending. While there will be duplicate versions of Trunks and Mai, everyone else who got killed by Black and Zamasu practically returns to life, just another way of life. Furthermore and especially, Trunks warns the gods of Zamasu's plan so that he gets sealed forever and will never again be able to threaten humanity. In this way Trunks finally creates a world of peace, not just for himself, but also for everyone else, including a version of himself who will never know the horrors of the Zero Mortals Project.

Trunks does briefly cry to Gohan when he sees him, claiming that he failed to protect his world. But after a few words of encouragment, he wipes away his tears, smiles brightly, and proclaims that his hope was the right choice. It is ultimately a positive ending, meant to uplift Trunks as a character, a hero who created a world of peace through his hope. And the only one who feels like he failed is Trunks himself, momentarily.

Secondly, I think it was a very interesting idea to tie Goku Black to Trunks' prior use of time travel and how Trunks engineered his own destruction. As Black pointed out, had Trunks not meddled with time and let history flow onward as originally dictated, Goku Black as a threat would simply not exist, because Goku would be long gone, and with no Saiyan to challenge him, Zamasu would lack the guts and sheer hatred required to put his plan in motion (we see this with Future Zamasu - the original Zamasu - who was never challenged by Goku, and as a result did not turn evil until Black murdered Gowasu for him and pushed him over the edge). Time travel is fundamentally bad, and it's a unique and logical plotline to punish Trunks for his abuse of time travel. A recurring theme with time travel is that you don't want to alter events in the past, and so it just makes sense that Trunks' altering of the original history to cure Goku came back to haunt him years later.

The premise of this saga - "Don't change the past, and be careful of what you wish for" - was brilliant. And this is also why I love that Goku Black is not just an evil saiyan - I love that he's also a Kaioshin from the past who got pissy at Trunks for abusing time travel, while he does the same himself. He's also a corrupt, twisted embodiment of Trunks' original wish behind time traveling - the noble goal to cure Goku - and so Black Goku (not Black Gohan or Black Goten) was Trunks' perfect arch-nemesis.

[JulieYBM]

Re the Future Trunks of it all:

I do agree that Future Trunks should have been the main focus of the arc. I'm more emotionally invested in his story and not invested in Gohan's story because he kind of just disappears during that arc. In retrospect, Goku does, too. Goku is this really only this figure in other characters' stories throughout the majority of the arc. We're invited into Vegeta, Trunks, Piccolo, and Kuririn's thoughts and feelings but not really Goku or Gohan's until the Cell Games. As a result, it feels like the story just sort of stops and doesn't get resolved. Vegeta, Trunks, Kuririn and Piccolo teaming up and being the ones to actually beat Cell in some way would have felt like a more organic and focused story.

Well, this would require Vegeta having a real reckoning after Perfect Cell kicks his ass. Can you imagine a scene between Horikawa and Kusao in their primes where Vegeta and Trunks have a big, pre-Cell Games confrontation where Trunks knocks some sense into Vegeta somehow? All without using Trunks as a prop via his death?

[The Dark Knight]

In the alternate universe where Gohan, Goten, Trunks, maybe even Piccolo, were there during the final battle, the entire perception of Dragon Ball as a whole may have drastically changed. Even if Goku had been the one to get the kill, had all those been there, their mere presence would have shaped the perception of the entire franchise for years and years to come.

Absolutely, 100%. GT, Super, and Daima, would all be vastly, vastly different products if Goku and Vegeta stayed dead at the end of the Buu arc; if the last time we saw Goku was when he said Goodbye to Gohan, and Vegeta when he sacrificed himself. I'll go a step further and speculate that we may not have gotten any of those sequels as a result of Goku in particular being dead, as he was the face of the franchise. Of course, they could have still released sequels that started with Goku alone or him and Vegeta being revived, but that's a discussion for another topic. On the flip side, I definitely think these characters would've gotten more screen time in the sequels had Goku managed to save them before Buu blew up the planet. GT's producer said they wanted the story to focus primarily on the final days of Goku and Vegeta, but in a world where they weren't the only ones to defeat Buu, then I have no doubt GT's direction would've changed. Super on the other hand did a far better job utilizing the other characters, but I think it would've happened sooner had they played a bigger role against Kid Buu.


With all this said; I think Toriyama made the right decision centering the final battle on Goku and Vegeta, as including everyone else would've just taken up screen time that was desperately needed to wrap up Goku and Vegeta's stories. There's also the fact that we already spent a considerable amount of time with them, so what more was there to show and tell ? Piccolo giving advice to everyone ? we saw that. Gotenks fooling around ? we saw that too. Gohan messing up ? we got plenty of that. One thing I love about Toriyama's writing in the original manga was his ability to only use characters that needed to be in a particular situation; he never included characters who didn't add anything to the conflict. What I hate about modern manga is that every character has to be present in every situation, which results in plot threads that feel like filler, where you have to have all these extra characters so that the entire cast has something to do, even if that something adds nothing to the plot. One Piece is notorious for this; I think that manga would be half its length if Oda followed Toriyama's style instead of dragging everything out just to give everyone something to do.

[Kid Buu]

Super ended up regressing his character, which I don't think was worth it. For me, Trunks was always that special character that showed up in one iconic arc. I like that.

It also kinda undid all of his successes in the Cell arc. He finally got rid of the evil in his timeline, and now it's all erased and he's forced to live in an alt version of it with an alt version of him, it' so ridiculous

The characters in the story and the writers see it as a good ending. While there will be duplicate versions of Trunks and Mai, everyone else who got killed by Black and Zamasu practically returns to life, just another way of life. Furthermore and especially, Trunks warns the gods of Zamasu's plan so that he gets sealed forever and will never again be able to threaten humanity. In this way Trunks finally creates a world of peace, not just for himself, but also for everyone else, including a version of himself who will never know the horrors of the Zero Mortals Project.

Trunks does briefly cry to Gohan when he sees him, claiming that he failed to protect his world. But after a few words of encouragment, he wipes away his tears, smiles brightly, and proclaims that his hope was the right choice. It is ultimately a positive ending, meant to uplift Trunks as a character, a hero who created a world of peace through his hope. And the only one who feels like he failed is Trunks himself, momentarily.

Secondly, I think it was a very interesting idea to tie Goku Black to Trunks' prior use of time travel and how Trunks engineered his own destruction. As Black pointed out, had Trunks not meddled with time and let history flow onward as originally dictated, Goku Black as a threat would simply not exist, because Goku would be long gone, and with no Saiyan to challenge him, Zamasu would lack the guts and sheer hatred required to put his plan in motion (we see this with Future Zamasu - the original Zamasu - who was never challenged by Goku, and as a result did not turn evil until Black murdered Gowasu for him and pushed him over the edge). Time travel is fundamentally bad, and it's a unique and logical plotline to punish Trunks for his abuse of time travel. A recurring theme with time travel is that you don't want to alter events in the past, and so it just makes sense that Trunks' altering of the original history to cure Goku came back to haunt him years later.

The premise of this saga - "Don't change the past, and be careful of what you wish for" - was brilliant. And this is also why I love that Goku Black is not just an evil saiyan - I love that he's also a Kaioshin from the past who got pissy at Trunks for abusing time travel, while he does the same himself. He's also a corrupt, twisted embodiment of Trunks' original wish behind time traveling - the noble goal to cure Goku - and so Black Goku (not Black Gohan or Black Goten) was Trunks' perfect arch-nemesis.

I was thinking about this arc recently and was gonna make a thread on it but since it has come up in conversation, this now seems like a good time to ask:

From my unnderstanding: Zamasu uses the Dragon Balls to swap body with Goku, he then kills Goku Chichi and Goten, and then travels to Trunks timeline - thus making a new timeline.

So what happened to everyone else in that Goku Black timeline? Like I wonder if someone like Gohan found everyone dead and just found a way to bring them back to life.

[JulieYBM]

I loath the idea of doing "anime/manga these days..." types of sentiments because I recognize that these issues stem largely from the requirements of capital and how they harm the production of art.

That being said: one of my favorite things about Kidou Senshi Gundam (1979) is that characters just die and those deaths affect other characters. Like, Ryu Jose, Matilda and Sleggar all remain permanent parts of the image of Gundam even though they got to die and I think that's really a sign of how strongly those scenes affected the fandom longevity of Gundam.

Which is all to say: I'm quite a fan of just keeping Goku and Vegeta dead because I don't think that makes anything more or less legitimate but it does help cut down the cast and allow for things to change.

[The Dark Knight]

Super ended up regressing his character, which I don't think was worth it. For me, Trunks was always that special character that showed up in one iconic arc. I like that.

It also kinda undid all of his successes in the Cell arc. He finally got rid of the evil in his timeline, and now it's all erased and he's forced to live in an alt version of it with an alt version of him, it' so ridiculous

Super regressed everyone, but Trunks got the worst of it, as not only was his character regressed, everything he accomplished before was taken away from him. GT's Super #17 arc is viewed by many as the worst arc in the franchise, but I think a good argument could be made that in fact, it's Super's Zamasu arc that should be sitting on that throne. Unlike the Super #17 arc that's just kind of dull, the Zamasu arc went out of its way to make every writing mistake one can imagine; it was just a total mess.

The writers see it as a good ending.

Every writer sees their work as good, but more often than not, the opposite is true in reality. Super's stories lack the most basic plot structure one can expect, which goes to show just how uninterested Toriyama was in the whole thing (as confirmed by his editors).

[SupremeKai25]

I was thinking about this arc recently and was gonna make a thread on it but since it has come up in conversation, this now seems like a good time to ask:

From my unnderstanding: Zamasu uses the Dragon Balls to swap body with Goku, he then kills Goku Chichi and Goten, and then travels to Trunks timeline - thus making a new timeline.

So what happened to everyone else in that Goku Black timeline? Like I wonder if someone like Gohan found everyone dead and just found a way to bring them back to life.

We don't know what happens after Zamasu kills Goku, however it's worth pointing out that Zamasu used the Time Ring to jump 1 year into the future, so by all accounts Zamasu would've been just that one guy Goku sparred with 1 year ago. I doubt Gohan or anyone else really knows anything about him. It would be logical for Zamasu to cover his tracks completely by burning "his corpse" (Goku's corpse).

I feel like even Goku would forget who Zamasu was since he fought him 1 year ago and doesn't exactly have a good memory, so even if they revived Goku with the Dragon Balls, he likely wouldn't suspect or even remember Zamasu at all. So nobody would be able to link Goku's murder in U7 to Gowasu's in U10. People in U10 would definitely suspect Zamasu of foul play since he'd be missing, but nobody would really have the clues required to make the connection with Goku and his universe.

Every writer sees their work as good, but more often than not, the opposite is true in reality. Super's stories lack the most basic plot structure one can expect, which goes to show just how uninterested Toriyama was in the whole thing (as confirmed by his editors).

I meant "good" in the sense of happy/positive for Trunks, not good writing. Yes, I'm sure they think their writing was good too, but that wasn't my meaning.

And I don't recall the editors saying that he was "disinterested".

[The Dark Knight]

I don't recall the editors saying that he was "disinterested".

You can read the full interview here; it's from early 2025:

https://xcancel.com/Venixys/status/1893760603648331782

[SupremeKai25]

I don't recall the editors saying that he was "disinterested".

You can read the full interview here; it's from early 2025:

Well, I think his "shift in how he approached storytelling" was good, so for me it's a good thing he approached Super more casually.

[ABED]

Gohan shouldn't have been so on the periphery but I like him being the hero. I get that Trunks being the hero has a logic to it, but that's more plot stuff and not story. It's more important that he's the hero of his timeline. Going back to the past gives him the tools to bring peace to his time and it also allows him to know his father.

[Kid Buu]

We don't know what happens after Zamasu kills Goku, however it's worth pointing out that Zamasu used the Time Ring to jump 1 year into the future, so by all accounts Zamasu would've been just that one guy Goku sparred with 1 year ago. I doubt Gohan or anyone else really knows anything about him. It would be logical for Zamasu to cover his tracks completely by burning "his corpse" (Goku's corpse).

I feel like even Goku would forget who Zamasu was since he fought him 1 year ago and doesn't exactly have a good memory, so even if they revived Goku with the Dragon Balls, he likely wouldn't suspect or even remember Zamasu at all. So nobody would be able to link Goku's murder in U7 to Gowasu's in U10. People in U10 would definitely suspect Zamasu of foul play since he'd be missing, but nobody would really have the clues required to make the connection with Goku and his universe.

Yeah Goku seems surprised at the body switch, so I think he did forget Zamasu. Well, it's only really confirmed Goku, Chichi and Goten died. When Chaozu died in Z, he was given a new body, so maybe Goku was given his OG body back. Wouldn't be surprised if he got resurreced and they chalked it up to a WTF moment.

[DanielSSJ]

Gohan shouldn't have been so on the periphery but I like him being the hero. I get that Trunks being the hero has a logic to it, but that's more plot stuff and not story. It's more important that he's the hero of his timeline. Going back to the past gives him the tools to bring peace to his time and it also allows him to know his father.

I wouldn't mind that either, I just think it would've taken a lot more rewriting to make Gohan more focal to the story, whereas Trunks fits the framework of the arcs plot and structure pretty well already. Plus if Toriyama was only capable of doing one arc with Gohan in the leading role, I'd rather save it for the last arc instead of the second to last (not that he would've known that at the time of course).