Trunks should've been the hero of the Cell arc

[JulieYBM]

Gohan shouldn't have been so on the periphery but I like him being the hero. I get that Trunks being the hero has a logic to it, but that's more plot stuff and not story. It's more important that he's the hero of his timeline. Going back to the past gives him the tools to bring peace to his time and it also allows him to know his father.

I wouldn't mind that either, I just think it would've taken a lot more rewriting to make Gohan more focal to the story, whereas Trunks fits the framework of the arcs plot and structure pretty well already. Plus if Toriyama was only capable of doing one arc with Gohan in the leading role, I'd rather save it for the last arc instead of the second to last (not that he would've known that at the time of course).

I mean, if we're playing the hypothetical rewrite game for even one little thing, we might as well play it for the whole thing.

Future Gohan guided Future Trunks to his destiny, so the Future Trunks can still remain the focus of the arc while Gohan is there now becoming his mentee. Two birds, one Dragon Ball.

[DanielSSJ]

Gohan and Trunks as dual protagonists would've been great, too!

[The Dark Knight]

Well, I think his "shift in how he approached storytelling" was good, so for me it's a good thing he approached Super more casually.

"Little enthusiasm", "Didn't find it fun", & "Motivation no longer there", etc. don't mean he approached it casually, they mean he didn't want to approach it at all, which again, you can tell from the complete lack of quality control of the material.

[SupremeKai25]

Well, I think his "shift in how he approached storytelling" was good, so for me it's a good thing he approached Super more casually.

"Little enthusiasm", "Didn't find it fun", & "Motivation no longer there", etc. don't mean he approached it casually, they mean he didn't want to approach it at all, which again, you can tell from the complete lack of quality control of the material.

And again, I think that's a good thing, because I liked Super and I liked its storytelling. I'm sad that Toriyama apparently lost his enthusiasm, but I liked Super and I think that's what matters to me. This is really not the thread for this discussion so I won't continue this off-topic. Have a good day.

[PhantomSaiyan]

The characters in the story and the writers see it as a good ending. While there will be duplicate versions of Trunks and Mai, everyone else who got killed by Black and Zamasu practically returns to life, just another way of life. Furthermore and especially, Trunks warns the gods of Zamasu's plan so that he gets sealed forever and will never again be able to threaten humanity. In this way Trunks finally creates a world of peace, not just for himself, but also for everyone else, including a version of himself who will never know the horrors of the Zero Mortals

That doesn't mean that it is though. In fact, them feeling like it's a good outcome comes across as tone deaf more than anything.

And they don't really come back to life in any way. The people that Trunks knew got erased, they are permanently and forever deleted. The ones in the duplicate timeline aren't the same. I doubt he will also get many chances to interact them or even with Bulma for example, considering that he's an extra in that timeline, and he will forever just be an extra, an outcast, his role in that timeline is already covered, he is not needed.
That's just a bummer of an outcome no matter how you look at it. I would have preferred if his story ended with the Cell arc.

[SupremeKai25]

The characters in the story and the writers see it as a good ending. While there will be duplicate versions of Trunks and Mai, everyone else who got killed by Black and Zamasu practically returns to life, just another way of life. Furthermore and especially, Trunks warns the gods of Zamasu's plan so that he gets sealed forever and will never again be able to threaten humanity. In this way Trunks finally creates a world of peace, not just for himself, but also for everyone else, including a version of himself who will never know the horrors of the Zero Mortals

That doesn't mean that it is though. In fact, them feeling like it's a good outcome comes across as tone deaf more than anything.

And they don't really come back to life in any way. The people that Trunks knew got erased, they are permanently and forever deleted. The ones in the duplicate timeline aren't the same. I doubt he will also get many chances to interact them or even with Bulma for example, considering that he's an extra in that timeline, and he will forever just be an extra, an outcast, his role in that timeline is already covered, he is not needed.
That's just a bummer of an outcome no matter how you look at it. I would have preferred if his story ended with the Cell arc.

I don't think we can make these judgments conclusively without knowing anything about how souls interact with alternate timelines. We know from the manga the two Zamases basically had the same soul, so they merged at a cellular level, bypassing the Potara limit.

One Zamasu came from the past, one from the future. Two different "people", with two different histories and personalities. Still the same soul, and they merged at a biological level.

It's possible that Future Gohan, Future Bulma, and others are gone gone, but maybe it's just as likely that they still exist in some form. Again, the new timeline is said to be -IDENTICAL- in everything to the original timeline.

I doubt souls interacting with alternate timelines is as simple as you paint it. And I think time travel in fiction is NEVER simple to understand. Things that might seem clear-cut could be hiding deeper complexities. Time travel, by definition, is chaotic, unpredictable, and weird.

[JulieYBM]

The Future Trunks arc ending is a perfect example of Toriyama trying to do his usual 'poison' thing and having it backfire. The ending doesn't work on paper and should have been challenged or at the very least led to another arc where Future Trunks and Vegeta underwent some sort of trial to reverse the erasure.

[Kid Buu]

The characters in the story and the writers see it as a good ending. While there will be duplicate versions of Trunks and Mai, everyone else who got killed by Black and Zamasu practically returns to life, just another way of life. Furthermore and especially, Trunks warns the gods of Zamasu's plan so that he gets sealed forever and will never again be able to threaten humanity. In this way Trunks finally creates a world of peace, not just for himself, but also for everyone else, including a version of himself who will never know the horrors of the Zero Mortals

That doesn't mean that it is though. In fact, them feeling like it's a good outcome comes across as tone deaf more than anything.

And they don't really come back to life in any way. The people that Trunks knew got erased, they are permanently and forever deleted. The ones in the duplicate timeline aren't the same. I doubt he will also get many chances to interact them or even with Bulma for example, considering that he's an extra in that timeline, and he will forever just be an extra, an outcast, his role in that timeline is already covered, he is not needed.
That's just a bummer of an outcome no matter how you look at it. I would have preferred if his story ended with the Cell arc.

I don't think we can make these judgments conclusively without knowing anything about how souls interact with alternate timelines. We know from the manga the two Zamases basically had the same soul, so they merged at a cellular level, bypassing the Potara limit.

One Zamasu came from the past, one from the future. Two different "people", with two different histories and personalities. Still the same soul, and they merged at a biological level.

It's possible that Future Gohan, Future Bulma, and others are gone gone, but maybe it's just as likely that they still exist in some form. Again, the new timeline is said to be -IDENTICAL- in everything to the original timeline.

I doubt souls interacting with alternate timelines is as simple as you paint it. And I think time travel in fiction is NEVER simple to understand. Things that might seem clear-cut could be hiding deeper complexities. Time travel, by definition, is chaotic, unpredictable, and weird.

The new timeline predate the Dabura battle, as Whis mentions he will warn Beerus of what is going on. So Bulma should be arrived too.

[The Dark Knight]

The Future Trunks arc ending is a perfect example of Toriyama trying to do his usual 'poison' thing and having it backfire. The ending doesn't work on paper and should have been challenged or at the very least led to another arc where Future Trunks and Vegeta underwent some sort of trial to reverse the erasure.

The problem with the modern stories is that: 1- they have to be self-contained, so you'll never get anything like the Saiyan arc leading directly into the Namek arc, and 2- They have to be short in order to quickly get to the next arc and restart they hype machine; no story or character arc is allowed the time it needs to develop properly.

[JulieYBM]

The Future Trunks arc ending is a perfect example of Toriyama trying to do his usual 'poison' thing and having it backfire. The ending doesn't work on paper and should have been challenged or at the very least led to another arc where Future Trunks and Vegeta underwent some sort of trial to reverse the erasure.

The problem with the modern stories is that: 1- they have to be self-contained, so you'll never get anything like the Saiyan arc leading directly into the Namek arc, and 2- They have to be short in order to quickly get to the next arc and restart they hype machine; no story or character arc is allowed the time it needs to develop properly.

The length isn't an issue at all. The Future Trunks arc was already long as it was. The problem is the ending is planned as it is and Toriyama did not desire a different outcome or a different arc to deal with the erasure of the future timeline. The arcs don't have to be long to deal with these things nor do they have to be 'short'. Arcs were clearly being designed to show off new characters and forms and that could have been done with a handful of episodes after the Future Trunks arc or with a different ending to the Future Trunks arc entirely.

Twenty-two episodes is a long arc, especially with off-weeks.

[The Dark Knight]

Twenty-two episodes is a long arc, especially with off-weeks.

It's actually 21 (47-67). The problem with the Trunks arc is that a number of aspects were either not covered properly (Trunks' newfound power), rushed (Zamasu's motives), or flat out ignored (the impact of the ending). You can't rush or ignore important plot points and expect the story to turn out well. I'm not saying it needed to be over 50 episodes like what we got in certain DB and Z arcs, but considering the 10 episodes following that arc were filler, why not allocate those to the Trunks arc instead ? Fans like to complain about Z's arcs and even certain OG DB arcs being slow, but I'd take a story that's on the slow side that covers everything properly over one that is constantly being rushed to the finish line in order to get to the next thing. If you only have 21 episodes to work with, then structure the story so that it fits properly in 21 episodes; this was an issue I had with Daima as well, as those 20 episodes were not structured properly for the story they were trying to tell.

[JulieYBM]

Twenty-two episodes is a long arc, especially with off-weeks.

It's actually 21 (47-67). The problem with the Trunks arc is that a number of aspects were either not covered properly (Trunks' newfound power), rushed (Zamasu's motives), or flat out ignored (the impact of the ending). You can't rush or ignore important plot points and expect the story to turn out well. I'm not saying it needed to be over 50 episodes like what we got in certain DB and Z arcs, but considering the 10 episodes following that arc were filler, why not allocate those to the Trunks arc instead ? Fans like to complain about Z's arcs and even certain OG DB arcs being slow, but I'd take a story that's on the slow side that covers everything properly over one that is constantly being rushed to the finish line in order to get to the next thing. If you only have 21 episodes to work with, then structure the story so that it fits properly in 21 episodes; this was an issue I had with Daima as well, as those 20 episodes were not structured properly for the story they were trying to tell.

Those things could have easily been covered in twenty-one episodes, though.

Like, I don't really feel like Trunks' new form needed an explanation because Super Saiyan 2 never got an explanation, either, but even if it did I don't see there needing to be anything more than what we got. Trunks' emotions boiled over after significantly going through the ringer several times and his Saiyan body adapted by giving him a new transformation. It kind of just speaks for itself, given how often the series talks about Saiyans being a 'warrior race'. If I had been writing, I'd have probably pushed for a more concrete discussion about it because that's the kind of pervert I am but I'm willing to bet Tomioka had an explanation and was told not to include it for the sake of not making any statements about the Dragon Ball world without Toriyama's influence.

With regards to Zamasu's motives: I thought that was made pretty clear? He was a god who looked down on mortals and eventually decided to do something about it. I need to rewatch the arc again but it remakes one of those stories that I've never had a hard time understanding.

And like I said about the ending before: the issue a not a lack of episodes because the series is scripted specifically to match what the staff want from these episodes. Toriyama doesn't go into detail about the impact in his outline because he had his weird hang-ups about writing serious material. The pproduction staff don't come up with their own material because they're mostly being ham-strung by sticking to Toriyama and also the whims of people playing the politics of making a kids show that needs to be internationally-friendly.

Turning those ten episodes that break up the Future Trunks arc and Tournament of Power and adding them to the length of the Future Trunks arc wouldn't have changed anything. They would have most likely just made the arc spin its wheels longer by having Vegetto Blue fight Zamasu for more episodes while the other characters did nothing of consequence.

Like, this arc would have been better as a 2-3 hour thriller film with a tighter focus going by the way it was planned out in the anime. Twenty-one episodes was too much for how little plot and character development that there was allowed to be.

[DanielSSJ]

Hey, maybe a 3 hour thriller is what we'll get with this Dragon Ball Super revival era we're now in.

[Kid Buu]

Reading these posts, it seems to me the Zamasu arc has replaced the Buu arc as the arc the fandom is most divided on.

[The Dark Knight]

Reading these posts, it seems to me the Zamasu arc has replaced the Buu arc as the arc the fandom is most divided on.

I think most of the divide regarding the Buu arc came down to whether it was as good as some of the previous arcs, not whether it was good in of itself. The Buu arc may not have been a 10/10 like the 3 previous arcs, or even a 9/10 like the 3 before them, but it was a solid 8/10 that concluded the original story on a high note. It definitely has some bumps along the way that prevented it from being an outstanding arc, but it's still very good nonetheless. The Zamasu on the other hand is not good, not on its own and definitely not compared to what we got in the original manga; it's only viewed favorably by fans because the stories before it (Resurrection F and Champa) were so mediocre.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Reading these posts, it seems to me the Zamasu arc has replaced the Buu arc as the arc the fandom is most divided on.

The Zamasu on the other hand is not good, not on its own and definitely not compared to what we got in the original manga; it's only viewed favorably by fans because the stories before it (Resurrection F and Champa) were so mediocre.

Nailed it, I distinctly remember thinking "finally, this new Dragon Ball show is starting to look and feel more like the Dragon Ball I know" back when the Zamasu arc was airing, and I feel like that was the popular sentiment at the time. The animation was finally picking up too in what felt like the first time in Super lol

Now looking back, I still think it was interesting but I like it a lot less than I used to

[The Dark Knight]

Nailed it, I distinctly remember thinking "finally, this new Dragon Ball show is starting to look and feel more like the Dragon Ball I know" back when the Zamasu arc was airing, and I feel like that was the popular sentiment at the time. The animation was finally picking up too in what felt like the first time in Super lol

Now looking back, I still think it was interesting but I like it a lot less than I used to

Episode 47 still holds up though; that was by far the best opening to any arc in this franchise; it was one WTF moment after another.

[Kid Buu]

Reading these posts, it seems to me the Zamasu arc has replaced the Buu arc as the arc the fandom is most divided on.

I think most of the divide regarding the Buu arc came down to whether it was as good as some of the previous arcs, not whether it was good in of itself. The Buu arc may not have been a 10/10 like the 3 previous arcs, or even a 9/10 like the 3 before them, but it was a solid 8/10 that concluded the original story on a high note. It definitely has some bumps along the way that prevented it from being an outstanding arc, but it's still very good nonetheless. The Zamasu on the other hand is not good, not on its own and definitely not compared to what we got in the original manga; it's only viewed favorably by fans because the stories before it (Resurrection F and Champa) were so mediocre.

I don't want to put words into people's mouth, but I feel most people who dislike the Buu arc do so because of the prtagonist change.

Zamasu arc I do give it some credit as I feel it is the most ambitious arc in Super. Guess not saying much when two arcs are remakes of films and the other two arcs are tournaments.

[JulieYBM]

Reading these posts, it seems to me the Zamasu arc has replaced the Buu arc as the arc the fandom is most divided on.

I think most of the divide regarding the Buu arc came down to whether it was as good as some of the previous arcs, not whether it was good in of itself. The Buu arc may not have been a 10/10 like the 3 previous arcs, or even a 9/10 like the 3 before them, but it was a solid 8/10 that concluded the original story on a high note. It definitely has some bumps along the way that prevented it from being an outstanding arc, but it's still very good nonetheless. The Zamasu on the other hand is not good, not on its own and definitely not compared to what we got in the original manga; it's only viewed favorably by fans because the stories before it (Resurrection F and Champa) were so mediocre.

I don't want to put words into people's mouth, but I feel most people who dislike the Buu arc do so because of the prtagonist change.

Zamasu arc I do give it some credit as I feel it is the most ambitious arc in Super. Guess not saying much when two arcs are remakes of films and the other two arcs are tournaments.

Majin Buu arc: the treatment of Videl and the lack of a really interesting focus on a central character is why I'm not a fan of the arc. It feels less than an ensemble and more like it's all over the place.

Super arcs: the Zamasu arc and Tournament of Power excel at different things. You have the mystery and self-cestuous elements in the former while in the latter you get to see the characters work as an ensemble in a more focused fashion. Goku's progress and his role in other characters' arcs is more clearly defined, too. His selfishness—tampering with the volite power of the Zen-Ou—is the inciting incident of the arc but by gathering the Universe 7 team, he helps nudge their arcs in a direction where they can grow from where they were before the Tournament of Power began. He even does this for characters that are from other universes, like Toppo, Jiren, Caulifla and Kale. These two arcs are easily the most focused arcs up to that point because the threads are connected well-enough to justify the use of various characters outside of purely plot utilitarian terms.

[Kid Buu]

I think most of the divide regarding the Buu arc came down to whether it was as good as some of the previous arcs, not whether it was good in of itself. The Buu arc may not have been a 10/10 like the 3 previous arcs, or even a 9/10 like the 3 before them, but it was a solid 8/10 that concluded the original story on a high note. It definitely has some bumps along the way that prevented it from being an outstanding arc, but it's still very good nonetheless. The Zamasu on the other hand is not good, not on its own and definitely not compared to what we got in the original manga; it's only viewed favorably by fans because the stories before it (Resurrection F and Champa) were so mediocre.

I don't want to put words into people's mouth, but I feel most people who dislike the Buu arc do so because of the prtagonist change.

Zamasu arc I do give it some credit as I feel it is the most ambitious arc in Super. Guess not saying much when two arcs are remakes of films and the other two arcs are tournaments.

Majin Buu arc: the treatment of Videl and the lack of a really interesting focus on a central character is why I'm not a fan of the arc. It feels less than an ensemble and more like it's all over the place.

Super arcs: the Zamasu arc and Tournament of Power excel at different things. You have the mystery and self-cestuous elements in the former while in the latter you get to see the characters work as an ensemble in a more focused fashion. Goku's progress and his role in other characters' arcs is more clearly defined, too. His selfishness—tampering with the volite power of the Zen-Ou—is the inciting incident of the arc but by gathering the Universe 7 team, he helps nudge their arcs in a direction where they can grow from where they were before the Tournament of Power began. He even does this for characters that are from other universes, like Toppo, Jiren, Caulifla and Kale. These two arcs are easily the most focused arcs up to that point because the threads are connected well-enough to justify the use of various characters outside of purely plot utilitarian terms.

That's completely fair on Videl. She started an extremely fun character but the instant she pulled a Felicity and cut her hair, her whole personality started to vanish. Complete bore in Super.

Agree on liking the mysterty of discovering Goku Black's identity. As for ToP, well I did say 2 tournaments arc seem like easy ideas in these type of shows...but to be fair, a battle royale isn't something DB had done before. It did have some cool character moments. I loved Android 18 running up that beam as if she was Sonic to beat Ribrianne lol.