Trunks should've been the hero of the Cell arc

[Zebra]

At the end of the day, Future Trunks killed the androids and even Cell in his own timeline. Even though he wasn't the "hero" of the whole story arc, he was still the hero of his own world. Shouldn't that be good enough? While I agree having Gohan beat Cell in the main timeline wasn't necessarily the right decision, because all the focus Gohan got came out of nowhere, I don't think it should've been Trunks. From the jump, even though he got to look cool by killing Freeza and Kold, Trunks was just meant to be another one of Gokuu's cheerleaders.

The reason he traveled back in time was to give Gokuu his medicine, with the intention of having Gokuu beat the androids. He's amazed to see how strong Gokuu is as a Super Saiyan twice, when they first meet and when Gokuu's fighting Cell. And when it was Trunks's turn to fight Perfect Cell, he failed because he was too green to realize Grade 3's weakness; Gokuu and even Vegeeta were able to realize it because they're better fighters. And speaking of Vegeeta, that's the only other role Trunks serves: to add to Vegeeta's character development.

Trunks was never intended to be a protagonist, and I don't think there's any reason he should've been one. Dragon Ball is supposed to be Gokuu's story. Frankly, Trunks's entire existence is contrived, so I think he should've simply never existed. It's not like Vegeeta needs to have a son to develop (and it would've been best if Vegeeta stayed dead after Freeza killed him, anyway). Personally, I would've had Gokuu be the one to beat Cell; what's the point of making Gohan the protagonist just to bring Gokuu back a couple of chapters later? Or maybe fusion should've been introduced in the Cell arc, so Gokuu and Vegeeta would fuse with each other to beat Cell.

[JulieYBM]

I don't want to put words into people's mouth, but I feel most people who dislike the Buu arc do so because of the prtagonist change.

Zamasu arc I do give it some credit as I feel it is the most ambitious arc in Super. Guess not saying much when two arcs are remakes of films and the other two arcs are tournaments.

Majin Buu arc: the treatment of Videl and the lack of a really interesting focus on a central character is why I'm not a fan of the arc. It feels less than an ensemble and more like it's all over the place.

Super arcs: the Zamasu arc and Tournament of Power excel at different things. You have the mystery and self-cestuous elements in the former while in the latter you get to see the characters work as an ensemble in a more focused fashion. Goku's progress and his role in other characters' arcs is more clearly defined, too. His selfishness—tampering with the volite power of the Zen-Ou—is the inciting incident of the arc but by gathering the Universe 7 team, he helps nudge their arcs in a direction where they can grow from where they were before the Tournament of Power began. He even does this for characters that are from other universes, like Toppo, Jiren, Caulifla and Kale. These two arcs are easily the most focused arcs up to that point because the threads are connected well-enough to justify the use of various characters outside of purely plot utilitarian terms.

That's completely fair on Videl. She started an extremely fun character but the instant she pulled a Felicity and cut her hair, her whole personality started to vanish. Complete bore in Super.

Agree on liking the mysterty of discovering Goku Black's identity. As for ToP, well I did say 2 tournaments arc seem like easy ideas in these type of shows...but to be fair, a battle royale isn't something DB had done before. It did have some cool character moments. I loved Android 18 running up that beam as if she was Sonic to beat Ribrianne lol.

I mean, I don't quite care to say that Videl had a personality before the haircut merely because she had a tough exterior. Women are not valid and relatable when they merely fit a facsimile of the Typical Male Character Traits. I think Toriyama's writing of Videl pre-haircut is just as damning as post-haircut because to write a female character you need to view girls and women as more than just a one-dimensional being, even if that being is just "always being the fuddy-duddy to her male counterparts under the guise of being able to fight or whatever."

It's the explicit brutal depiction of Videl's defeat at the hands of a male character combined with her being completely dropped from the plot from then on out that I find so damning. Toriyama doesn't go, "Naw, Videl's cool because of X, Y, and Z, so I'm going to keep her involved with the story Just Because." Instead, he just dumps her because she's Gohan's love interest now and therefore that's all that matters because girls and women are not Real Human Beings like men obviously are.

Re Tournament of Power: I don't necessarily think that the tournament format is all that big an issue. A tournament is really no more or less a way of communicating ideas than anything else. When I think of the Tournament of Power arc, I don't necessarily think of 'the tournament' first, I think of the characters and their interactions and arcs first. You could do all those fun budding storylines throughout that arc in a different format that doesn't fit a tournament proper, it's just there as an excuse to facilitate the on-going plot.

The Universe 6 tournament was mostly just really boring, other than setting up a mentee for Vegeta. Monaka isn't really funny as a gag and the fights are generally just really boring because the characters don't have enough going on internally—it doesn't helpt that they're also mostly terribly animated and directed, too, but that's hardly the staff's fault given how they have no control over the schedule or available staff to work with.

I really do need to rewatch this arc to remind myself of what the nitty-gritty of it all was. I haven't watched it since the original broadcast lol

[PhantomSaiyan]

Episode 47 still holds up though; that was by far the best opening to any arc in this franchise; it was one WTF moment after another.

Absolutely, it was a great setup, that shot of Black Goku is so iconic, I can remember the mood and music just by looking at it, and I haven't watched it in years.

Frankly, Trunks's entire existence is contrived, so I think he should've simply never existed. It's not like Vegeeta needs to have a son to develop (and it would've been best if Vegeeta stayed dead after Freeza killed him, anyway

Getting rid of two of the coolest characters in the franchise was definitely not the move And a son is a completely valid path when it comes to giving him character development.

[Kid Buu]

Majin Buu arc: the treatment of Videl and the lack of a really interesting focus on a central character is why I'm not a fan of the arc. It feels less than an ensemble and more like it's all over the place.

Super arcs: the Zamasu arc and Tournament of Power excel at different things. You have the mystery and self-cestuous elements in the former while in the latter you get to see the characters work as an ensemble in a more focused fashion. Goku's progress and his role in other characters' arcs is more clearly defined, too. His selfishness—tampering with the volite power of the Zen-Ou—is the inciting incident of the arc but by gathering the Universe 7 team, he helps nudge their arcs in a direction where they can grow from where they were before the Tournament of Power began. He even does this for characters that are from other universes, like Toppo, Jiren, Caulifla and Kale. These two arcs are easily the most focused arcs up to that point because the threads are connected well-enough to justify the use of various characters outside of purely plot utilitarian terms.

That's completely fair on Videl. She started an extremely fun character but the instant she pulled a Felicity and cut her hair, her whole personality started to vanish. Complete bore in Super.

Agree on liking the mysterty of discovering Goku Black's identity. As for ToP, well I did say 2 tournaments arc seem like easy ideas in these type of shows...but to be fair, a battle royale isn't something DB had done before. It did have some cool character moments. I loved Android 18 running up that beam as if she was Sonic to beat Ribrianne lol.

I mean, I don't quite care to say that Videl had a personality before the haircut merely because she had a tough exterior. Women are not valid and relatable when they merely fit a facsimile of the Typical Male Character Traits. I think Toriyama's writing of Videl pre-haircut is just as damning as post-haircut because to write a female character you need to view girls and women as more than just a one-dimensional being, even if that being is just "always being the fuddy-duddy to her male counterparts under the guise of being able to fight or whatever."

It's the explicit brutal depiction of Videl's defeat at the hands of a male character combined with her being completely dropped from the plot from then on out that I find so damning. Toriyama doesn't go, "Naw, Videl's cool because of X, Y, and Z, so I'm going to keep her involved with the story Just Because." Instead, he just dumps her because she's Gohan's love interest now and therefore that's all that matters because girls and women are not Real Human Beings like men obviously are.

Re Tournament of Power: I don't necessarily think that the tournament format is all that big an issue. A tournament is really no more or less a way of communicating ideas than anything else. When I think of the Tournament of Power arc, I don't necessarily think of 'the tournament' first, I think of the characters and their interactions and arcs first. You could do all those fun budding storylines throughout that arc in a different format that doesn't fit a tournament proper, it's just there as an excuse to facilitate the on-going plot.

The Universe 6 tournament was mostly just really boring, other than setting up a mentee for Vegeta. Monaka isn't really funny as a gag and the fights are generally just really boring because the characters don't have enough going on internally—it doesn't helpt that they're also mostly terribly animated and directed, too, but that's hardly the staff's fault given how they have no control over the schedule or available staff to work with.

I really do need to rewatch this arc to remind myself of what the nitty-gritty of it all was. I haven't watched it since the original broadcast lol

Yeah, I get you. Toriyama just didn't really know what to do with Videl. U6 is kind of meh because it just seems like that Otherworld arc from Z repeated lol. TOP I only saw recently. I'm actually reading the manga version now and I feel like I honestly prefer the anime version because there were more character moments. Ten and Krillin especially felt wasted in the manga verision as they get eliminated straight away.

At the end of the day, Future Trunks killed the androids and even Cell in his own timeline. Even though he wasn't the "hero" of the whole story arc, he was still the hero of his own world. Shouldn't that be good enough? While I agree having Gohan beat Cell in the main timeline wasn't necessarily the right decision, because all the focus Gohan got came out of nowhere, I don't think it should've been Trunks. From the jump, even though he got to look cool by killing Freeza and Kold, Trunks was just meant to be another one of Gokuu's cheerleaders.

The reason he traveled back in time was to give Gokuu his medicine, with the intention of having Gokuu beat the androids. He's amazed to see how strong Gokuu is as a Super Saiyan twice, when they first meet and when Gokuu's fighting Cell. And when it was Trunks's turn to fight Perfect Cell, he failed because he was too green to realize Grade 3's weakness; Gokuu and even Vegeeta were able to realize it because they're better fighters. And speaking of Vegeeta, that's the only other role Trunks serves: to add to Vegeeta's character development.

Trunks was never intended to be a protagonist, and I don't think there's any reason he should've been one. Dragon Ball is supposed to be Gokuu's story. Frankly, Trunks's entire existence is contrived, so I think he should've simply never existed. It's not like Vegeeta needs to have a son to develop (and it would've been best if Vegeeta stayed dead after Freeza killed him, anyway). Personally, I would've had Gokuu be the one to beat Cell; what's the point of making Gohan the protagonist just to bring Gokuu back a couple of chapters later? Or maybe fusion should've been introduced in the Cell arc, so Gokuu and Vegeeta would fuse with each other to beat Cell.

Would you prefer if it Future Gohan was the one to come to warn everyone of the Androids and that Vegeta just stayed dead after Namek?

[Zebra]

That's completely fair on Videl. She started an extremely fun character but the instant she pulled a Felicity and cut her hair, her whole personality started to vanish. Complete bore in Super.

Agree on liking the mysterty of discovering Goku Black's identity. As for ToP, well I did say 2 tournaments arc seem like easy ideas in these type of shows...but to be fair, a battle royale isn't something DB had done before. It did have some cool character moments. I loved Android 18 running up that beam as if she was Sonic to beat Ribrianne lol.

I mean, I don't quite care to say that Videl had a personality before the haircut merely because she had a tough exterior. Women are not valid and relatable when they merely fit a facsimile of the Typical Male Character Traits. I think Toriyama's writing of Videl pre-haircut is just as damning as post-haircut because to write a female character you need to view girls and women as more than just a one-dimensional being, even if that being is just "always being the fuddy-duddy to her male counterparts under the guise of being able to fight or whatever."

It's the explicit brutal depiction of Videl's defeat at the hands of a male character combined with her being completely dropped from the plot from then on out that I find so damning. Toriyama doesn't go, "Naw, Videl's cool because of X, Y, and Z, so I'm going to keep her involved with the story Just Because." Instead, he just dumps her because she's Gohan's love interest now and therefore that's all that matters because girls and women are not Real Human Beings like men obviously are.

Re Tournament of Power: I don't necessarily think that the tournament format is all that big an issue. A tournament is really no more or less a way of communicating ideas than anything else. When I think of the Tournament of Power arc, I don't necessarily think of 'the tournament' first, I think of the characters and their interactions and arcs first. You could do all those fun budding storylines throughout that arc in a different format that doesn't fit a tournament proper, it's just there as an excuse to facilitate the on-going plot.

The Universe 6 tournament was mostly just really boring, other than setting up a mentee for Vegeta. Monaka isn't really funny as a gag and the fights are generally just really boring because the characters don't have enough going on internally—it doesn't helpt that they're also mostly terribly animated and directed, too, but that's hardly the staff's fault given how they have no control over the schedule or available staff to work with.

I really do need to rewatch this arc to remind myself of what the nitty-gritty of it all was. I haven't watched it since the original broadcast lol

Yeah, I get you. Toriyama just didn't really know what to do with Videl. U6 is kind of meh because it just seems like that Otherworld arc from Z repeated lol. TOP I only saw recently. I'm actually reading the manga version now and I feel like I honestly prefer the anime version because there were more character moments. Ten and Krillin especially felt wasted in the manga verision as they get eliminated straight away.

At the end of the day, Future Trunks killed the androids and even Cell in his own timeline. Even though he wasn't the "hero" of the whole story arc, he was still the hero of his own world. Shouldn't that be good enough? While I agree having Gohan beat Cell in the main timeline wasn't necessarily the right decision, because all the focus Gohan got came out of nowhere, I don't think it should've been Trunks. From the jump, even though he got to look cool by killing Freeza and Kold, Trunks was just meant to be another one of Gokuu's cheerleaders.

The reason he traveled back in time was to give Gokuu his medicine, with the intention of having Gokuu beat the androids. He's amazed to see how strong Gokuu is as a Super Saiyan twice, when they first meet and when Gokuu's fighting Cell. And when it was Trunks's turn to fight Perfect Cell, he failed because he was too green to realize Grade 3's weakness; Gokuu and even Vegeeta were able to realize it because they're better fighters. And speaking of Vegeeta, that's the only other role Trunks serves: to add to Vegeeta's character development.

Trunks was never intended to be a protagonist, and I don't think there's any reason he should've been one. Dragon Ball is supposed to be Gokuu's story. Frankly, Trunks's entire existence is contrived, so I think he should've simply never existed. It's not like Vegeeta needs to have a son to develop (and it would've been best if Vegeeta stayed dead after Freeza killed him, anyway). Personally, I would've had Gokuu be the one to beat Cell; what's the point of making Gohan the protagonist just to bring Gokuu back a couple of chapters later? Or maybe fusion should've been introduced in the Cell arc, so Gokuu and Vegeeta would fuse with each other to beat Cell.

Would you prefer if it Future Gohan was the one to come to warn everyone of the Androids and that Vegeta just stayed dead after Namek?

Have Gokuu, Kurilin, and Freeza stay dead, too, and don't implement any time travel at all.

But Future Gohan traveling back is a fun idea. I was reading a doujin of that a little while ago.

[DanielSSJ]

At the end of the day, Future Trunks killed the androids and even Cell in his own timeline. Even though he wasn't the "hero" of the whole story arc, he was still the hero of his own world. Shouldn't that be good enough? While I agree having Gohan beat Cell in the main timeline wasn't necessarily the right decision, because all the focus Gohan got came out of nowhere, I don't think it should've been Trunks. From the jump, even though he got to look cool by killing Freeza and Kold, Trunks was just meant to be another one of Gokuu's cheerleaders.

The reason he traveled back in time was to give Gokuu his medicine, with the intention of having Gokuu beat the androids. He's amazed to see how strong Gokuu is as a Super Saiyan twice, when they first meet and when Gokuu's fighting Cell. And when it was Trunks's turn to fight Perfect Cell, he failed because he was too green to realize Grade 3's weakness; Gokuu and even Vegeeta were able to realize it because they're better fighters. And speaking of Vegeeta, that's the only other role Trunks serves: to add to Vegeeta's character development.

Trunks was never intended to be a protagonist, and I don't think there's any reason he should've been one. Dragon Ball is supposed to be Gokuu's story. Frankly, Trunks's entire existence is contrived, so I think he should've simply never existed. It's not like Vegeeta needs to have a son to develop (and it would've been best if Vegeeta stayed dead after Freeza killed him, anyway). Personally, I would've had Gokuu be the one to beat Cell; what's the point of making Gohan the protagonist just to bring Gokuu back a couple of chapters later? Or maybe fusion should've been introduced in the Cell arc, so Gokuu and Vegeeta would fuse with each other to beat Cell.

It's not so much that I think Trunks deserves to have the W, so much that I think he fits best with the story and structure of the Cell arc up better than anyone else in the cast without more substantial rewriting. But I can't help but agree that about his existence being contrived and that Vegeta really ought to have stayed dead on Namek.

[angeldreamZ004]

I see Dragon Ball from Raditz to Boo as a series with indefinite protagonist.
Obviously, overall Dragon Ball series has a face which is Goku, he's the protagonist (hence the title of the 2020 console game), but the Saiyajin, Freeza, Cell and Boo arcs individually do not have a hero to me, it has multiple heroes, and even if one character becomes “the hero” in the end, it always ends up being the collective effort of many characters.
It's already evident in the Saiyajin arc, it has many characters fighting, then it makes us believe that Goku will save everyone the moment he arrives and fights Vegeta, but since Raditz the story builds in the idea that Gohan is the one who will save the day, and indeed, he's the one who defeats Vegeta. The 3 next arcs follow this formula as well, it's not only the Boo arc, as the number of characters only increases.

You say that Cell is Trunks's nemesis for some understandable reasons. But the same can technically be said for Vegeta and Freeza in the previous arc.

We see a lot of Namekusei from Vegeta's perspective, we discover about Freeza, his army and his past with the Saiyajins thanks to Vegeta, as no one else in that arc knew about it. The connection between the two is clear and Vegeta eliminates pretty much all of his soldiers, and gets to fight him himself as he thinks he should defeat Freeza. But Freeza kills Vegeta and in the end, it's up to Goku to defeat him. Goku never knew about Freeza, Freeza also didn't know about Goku, these two never saw each other before.
But Vegeta entrusted that Goku would defeat Freeza, which also connects to Bardock resisting against Freeza in the last moments of Planet Vegeta and entrusting that his son would survive that destruction. And that one Saiyajin grew up to defeat Freeza and avenge Vegeta, Bardock, all Saiyajins, Kuririn, Namekuseijins. In the end Goku is also the Legendary Super Saiyajin, making a prophecy, revealed by Vegeta, become reality.

With the Cell Arc is the same thing, but to not make it identical, Toriyama changed things a bit, as he used the time travel concept.

We see a lot of the Future from Mirai Trunks’ perspective, we discover about the Androids throughout him, as no one knew about them neither in the past and in the future.
Though the present Androids didn't know about Trunks, Trunks knew about them, while the next villain Cell knew about Trunks, but Trunks didn't know about him.
The past Z-senshi are able to survive most of the arc thanks to Trunks warning them about the Androids, and Trunks constantly tries to stop anything bad from happening, as he tries to defeat Cell himself later on. But Cell kills Trunks and another timeline version of him to be able to travel to the past.
It's revealed that Mirai Gohan was the only one who managed to survive in the future alongside Bulma and Trunks. He tried to resist the Androids, but ended up dying, but thanks to him, Trunks survived and traveled back to the past in order to save everyone there.
Trunks tried to save Goku as he thought Goku would save everything if he didn't die from the virus. But Goku still dies anyway just like in the future, where he was able to do nothing.
But thanks to Goku surviving most of the arc, Gohan also survives, and manages to get stronger and stronger. Goku trusts that Gohan will defeat Cell, Gohan, who didn't know anything about Cell and the Androids, had no experience like his future counterpart.
But Gohan transforms into SSJ2, now not only Goku, everyone else also believes he will defeat Cell. Cell is defeated, Gohan avenges Goku, Trunks, Android 16 and everyone killed by Cell. Goku's “prophecy” also becomes a reality.
Gohan being able to save the past thanks to Goku, who survived thanks to Mirai Trunks, also resulted in Trunks being revived, which led to him going back and saving the future, defeating the Androids and Cell there.

The survival of heroes in two timelines separate and distant from each other with different experiences is what led to the two meeting each other and being able to save each other. A parallel with the previous arc, where the survival of Vegeta and Goku, in two planets separate and distant from each other with different experiences is what led to the two meeting each other and being able to save each other.

I really love this and the symbolisms. We follow Vegeta and Trunks a lot in the story, but they don't defeat the main villain. Goku and Gohan play the same role. Also the concepts of different timelines which pretty much resulted in Goku dying in both of them, but like some pointed out here, in the future Trunks is the one who saves everything, and in the past Gohan is the one who saves everything, but that was only possible due to Mirai Gohan saving Trunks, who went back in time and saves the two timelines by helping Goku, who is responsible for Gohan being able to survive in the past and being the hero.

This style of storytelling was only able to happen because of the constant change of protagonists, makes the story feel less linear, less predictable and it gives the feeling that you're actually following a set of events of a bigger story thanks to how there are so many different character perspectives, the Boo saga continues with this but it's even bigger. It's a big contrast from the more usual linear style of storytelling that we see prior to Raditz, and in any sequel series like GT, Super and Daima, which usually follow a more traditional “hero group 1 + hero group 2 + the villain” formula.
I really like this Raditz-Boo style of story a lot and I think it's one of the main reasons it became the most iconic part of the entire franchise. Though I can understand if you think Trunks and Gohan are underdeveloped or had more potential in the Cell arc. Following this format doesn't mean every different section of the story with a different character will be amazing. For example, Piccolo is one of my top 3 favorite characters. But I feel his potential was hugely wasted in the Freeza Saga, where his race is explored, but Piccolo himself ended up having little impact to me, he was basically just a soldier who showed up to assist the actual protagonists in that arc (Gohan, Kuririn, Vegeta, Goku) and “replace” Nail. The moment Freeza transforms for the second time he's treated like trash, Kuririn was utilized much better lol.

I see the Cell arc ultimately as a rivalry between schools on how to transcend the Super Saiyan, with each school really being a different father-son duo. The masters of these schools, the fathers, are the true rivals, with their sons acting as star pupils, and in turn as proxies. It is not a direct rivalry, where they fight each other; instead they are seeing who can defeat this third school, represented by Dr. Gero's star pupil, Cell. That Gohan is the hero of the Cell arc, in that he is the one to defeat Cell, demonstrates the superiority of Goku's kung-fu over Vegeta's. I believe that this is very important.

That's an interesting perspective on it, never realized it personally, and Dr. Gero's side is definitely destructive and with no future the way he intended. His pupil kills him, while his best pupil needs to get rid of the other two in order to become perfect. Only one of them was “pure”, whose sacrifice helped the other school get the victory.

In response to your other post, I think it's very interesting the look you gave of the first 165 chapters of the manga being an experimental phase of the series while 166 onwards is its definitive state that started to show signs of fatigue after 200+ chapters, though I personally only feel this with the latter half of the Boo Saga as I always get a Toriyama “I just want to end this already” vibe from the Kid Boo-EoZ part, but I get what you mean, specially how he started to plan less.
It explores really well into the direction he decided to take with the series, why the stories got so much bigger, why we start to see more and more characters engaging.

I feel that Super is like a middle ground between these two ways he perceived the series before and post Majunior, and I view the fact that he doesn't make it a true sequel puts him in a safe place that allowed him to play with pre-selected ideas instead of constantly having to put them all on the fire, just like he did the original manga, which I also think contributes to what you said about diminishing novelty.

I also like how you see Super as some sort of soft-reboot, because I see it that way too and I think that is the reason why a lot of things people complain about this new era really don't bother me that much, or I straight up don't see a few of them as flaws. I was and continue open to these new ideas as long as they work for me as a new approach independent from the original series. So I really bought the new version of Goku and the new character arc given to him plus Vegeta, Freeza and other returning characters.
If there's something that bothers me, it won't be because of Super failing with the original series, but because of Super failing with itself, one prime example being the Super Hero arc, what made me view the way Goku is depicted there as problematic was how it's conflicting with what Super itself built in all of its previous arcs. Regressing the character so suddenly just to show us how Vegeta has evolved simply wasn't a good idea, none of the previous arcs needed to do that. In my view, the dynamic between a more laid-back, lighthearted guy and another who is colder and more serious worked well because we saw them evolving together, which is a stark contrast to how the two were handled in the original series, making this new interaction between the two one of the unique charms of this new series.
So I like when things like this are made, but at the same time, it invests in rehashes of old ideas and material from time to time, which undermines this new vision especially for me, as I try to see it as something of its own, rather than a genuine continuation of the old story, it doesn't have to do this to be good. Chapters 102 and 103 of that new manga, being a much better payoff to what those characters learned in 10 years of story in my view.

I do too, Buu feels more creative than Cell with his magical abilities. I like how the arc scales to the highest of Gods too, while the Cell Saga entirely is Earth-centric.

I don't think it's more creative, at least not outside of that perspective as It's because of the Boo arc going for the more mystical side of the Dragon Ball world and lore, while the Cell arc goes for the more sci-fi part, which started to be explored with the Saiyajin arc, having more development in the Freeza arc, we see more and more stuff such as the scouters and other human technology that are essential. The Androids and Cell arc being the ultimate phase of that exploration, featuring a progression within the theme itself in that arc, so it starts with the previous villain returning with mechanical parts (reminds you of Cyborg Tao Pai Pai) already hinting on what would be coming up. The concept of time travel through a human time machine is also introduced. It leads to the first Androids who are fully mechanical beings who need to absorb energy. After that, it's a fully mechanical one + two who are still mostly human but got the advantage of having infinite energy.
Then we have the ultimate Android, who appears through the time machine, is biological, and scientific study on cells becoming so advanced to the point of making this creature be able to replicate attacks from the warriors. The ultimate human creation.

That's why it's Earth-centric, I think it's really great and actually, the mystical side isn't abandoned, given how I really love that the arc plays with the idea of spiritual vs scientific, so the heroes train for a long period of time, go to a mystical place outside of the standard reality, unlock different states of the same transformation. It's the opposition to how the Androids work, also, Piccolo's magical fusion with Kami, the opposite to Cell's scientific and grotesque fusion metamorphosis when he absorbs the Androids, which I think is amazing as Piccolo is the first one to see him and even calls him his brother.
Also, Cell himself wouldn't be possible if it wasn't for the mystical part, as the story plays with the concept of him having the DNA of many different warriors, so when they try to sense his ki, they sense the ki of others instead. I also like to imagine that we don't see him using the Genkidama and Kaioken because he lacks the training for it, with Dr. Gero's science not being able to reach the point of replicating techniques literally taught in the afterlife dimension, but this is just me.

Anyway, I love how that arc constantly makes the spiritual interact with science, technology and the artificial, I think it's done in very creative and smart way, It's one of the reasons I constantly have it as my #1 favorite Dragon Ball arc, i also love how Cell feels like a evil counterpart of Goku, which is also only possible because of that as what Cell does is meant to be like gruesome and less spiritual parallel to Goku's journey to power, the Cell Games being the absolute show-off of those two opposites.

Actually the first two movies released during that arc also play with the idea, as Coola returns with technology that seems almost undestructible, but spiritual power of two SSJS is what led him to his demise, while Android 13 fuses with the remains of the other two Androids to become the (pre-Cell) ultimate Android, but Goku fusing himself with the Genkidama which is the spiritual energy of everything around him gathered in one ball of light completely obliterates the Android.
Damn 1991-1993 remain as peak Dragon Ball to me, I only wish Super Hero also followed that as I feel the spiritual / mystical part in that movie is barely explored in comparison, my personal major disappointment with that story alongside the Red Ribbon / Cell arc rehash.

Also, Boo is basically a clone of Cell, but originated from the Mystical side instead of the Scientific. He absorbs in order to become stronger and replicates techniques just like Cell does. Not saying it's a bad thing as I actually think it was a good decision to use the previous villain as a basis to create the next and final villain in the series, I don't think I would've done different.

Reading these posts, it seems to me the Zamasu arc has replaced the Buu arc as the arc the fandom is most divided on.

I don't know, I feel it gives that impression because it's one of the most popular arcs in the revival era, so you'll naturally see a lot of people criticizing it. I personally think that the most divisive arc, at least from the modern ones is the Granolah arc, there are people like me who enjoy it, but I feel that those who dislike it are very vocal about it, I feel that even a lot of people who generally like Super tend to dislike it, or treat it as the worst thing to come out after Fukkatsu no ‘F’ / Golden Freeza arc, or some just straight up say that movie / arc is better than it.

The other arcs such as Zamasu I feel those who dislike it are mostly people who just dislike Super in its entirety,l and not just individual parts of it.

I feel Daima is very divisive too, but that one is a different case given how a lot of people treat it as a separate series instead of any other regular arc in the franchise, even though I personally think it could also be criticized as such.

But it's just my personal perception.

Zamasu arc I do give it some credit as I feel it is the most ambitious arc in Super.

I feel the true most ambitious Super arc is the ToP. Especially if you take its marketing into account, also its cultural impact. I think nothing else that came before or after replicated that.

But it's just my personal perception².

Consider this: The cosmology of Super is a natural expansion of the Majin Buu saga. Beerus and Whis exist only because Nahare exists. They're linked to him, they're meant to flesh out the cosmology by giving us new gods of destruction and angels, but this "Cosmic" world-building begins with Nahare in the Buu saga. Nahare is the character who introduced us to the gods outside of Earth, the gods of creation, and eventually the gods of destruction and the angels. He's always been one of my favorite characters from the Z section because of how exotic he looked and how much world-building he introduced,

I agree with you there except for Kaioshin being the introduction for that. Technically, isn't it Kaio? The Afterlife is literally outside the Mortal Dimension too.

Okay I wrote too much already, time to stop, what a tower of text lol.

[Grimlock]

Nahare is the character who introduced us to the gods outside of Earth

[jjgp1112]

I don't think Trunks should've been the hero, as the ending he got was exactly what it should've been, but I do think his and Gohan's relationship was a MASSIVE missed opportunity. Really, what should've happened was Trunks becomes a big bro mentor for Kid Gohan in an inverse of their Future relationship, culminating in *Trunks'* death being what triggers SSJ2 for Gohan, rather than 16.

[Kid Buu]

Also, Boo is basically a clone of Cell, but originated from the Mystical side instead of the Scientific. He absorbs in order to become stronger and replicates techniques just like Cell does. Not saying it's a bad thing as I actually think it was a good decision to use the previous villain as a basis to create the next and final villain in the series, I don't think I would've done different.

Fat Buu and Kid Buu act nothing like Cell. I could see an arguement for Super Buu, but early he was doing the literal opposite of what Cell was doing.

[angeldreamZ004]

Also, Boo is basically a clone of Cell, but originated from the Mystical side instead of the Scientific. He absorbs in order to become stronger and replicates techniques just like Cell does. Not saying it's a bad thing as I actually think it was a good decision to use the previous villain as a basis to create the next and final villain in the series, I don't think I would've done different.

Fat Buu and Kid Buu act nothing like Cell. I could see an arguement for Super Buu, but early he was doing the literal opposite of what Cell was doing.

All of the Boos have the regeneration that is far more advanced than the Namekujin regeneration, and the first one to show that kind of regeneration was Cell.

As for Fat Boo, he copies the Kamehameha, and the Vegeta's Technique™ meme which comes from Goku saying Fat Boo is copying Vegeta, though I can understand you discarding this due to just being a random ki blast spam. Kid Boo also copies the Kamehameha.

Though I can understand too if you say that a antagonist copying the Kamehameha wasn't a thing originated from Cell, but Tenshinhan instead.

Other than this you're right.

[Kid Buu]

Also, Boo is basically a clone of Cell, but originated from the Mystical side instead of the Scientific. He absorbs in order to become stronger and replicates techniques just like Cell does. Not saying it's a bad thing as I actually think it was a good decision to use the previous villain as a basis to create the next and final villain in the series, I don't think I would've done different.

Fat Buu and Kid Buu act nothing like Cell. I could see an arguement for Super Buu, but early he was doing the literal opposite of what Cell was doing.

All of the Boos have the regeneration that is far more advanced than the Namekujin regeneration, and the first one to show that kind of regeneration was Cell.

As for Fat Boo, he copies the Kamehameha, and the Vegeta's Technique™ meme which comes from Goku saying Fat Boo is copying Vegeta, though I can understand you discarding this due to just being a random ki blast spam. Kid Boo also copies the Kamehameha.

Though I can understand too if you say that a antagonist copying the Kamehameha wasn't a thing originated from Cell, but Tenshinhan instead.

Other than this you're right.

By "act" I mean personality not what moves they have. Fat Buu is presented as a manchild and Kid Buu as a silent slasher villain kill em all type villain.

Super Buu is probably the closest to Perfect Cell in personality. Althoguh initially he pretty much demanded to fight Gotenks while Perfect Cell was willing to wait 10 days for them to train. They do get more similar once Buu absorbs Gotenks though.

In terms of moves yeah Buu uses all of Cell's moves, but he does have some original attacks like the chocolate beam or using his own skin to as human rings.

[angeldreamZ004]

By "act" I mean personality not what moves they have. Fat Buu is presented as a manchild and Kid Buu as a silent slasher villain kill em all type villain.

Ah ops my bad then should've paid attention to that. Personality they are very different indeed I think even Super Boo actually was different from Cell in many aspects. Yeah he has original techniques too, and not all of them copy Cell indeed, but given the way he operates, by absorbing people and copying them during the Super Boo section I can easily see that Toriyama was going for a Cell-like villain in ideas but that wasn't scientific in nature. And that continues into the Kid Boo part, with him vomiting Fat Boo just like Cell vomits 18 near the end of the arc. Obviously Kid Boo being magical is more pleasant to watch while Cell for being biological is gross

(Also, this comparison made me wonder about something. The Boos are usually seen stretching their arms. Technically it would make sense if Cell did this too, as he has Piccolo's Namekuseijin cells, so I think that's weird, I wonder if Toriyama forgot to give him that ability or he simply decided to make him unable of replicating it on purpose)

[Kid Buu]

By "act" I mean personality not what moves they have. Fat Buu is presented as a manchild and Kid Buu as a silent slasher villain kill em all type villain.

Ah ops my bad then should've paid attention to that. Personality they are very different indeed I think even Super Boo actually was different from Cell in many aspects. Yeah he has original techniques too, and not all of them copy Cell indeed, but given the way he operates, by absorbing people and copying them during the Super Boo section I can easily see that Toriyama was going for a Cell-like villain in ideas but that wasn't scientific in nature. And that continues into the Kid Boo part, with him vomiting Fat Boo just like Cell vomits 18 near the end of the arc. Obviously Kid Boo being magical is more pleasant to watch while Cell for being biological is gross

(Also, this comparison made me wonder about something. The Boos are usually seen stretching their arms. Technically it would make sense if Cell did this too, as he has Piccolo's Namekuseijin cells, so I think that's weird, I wonder if Toriyama forgot to give him that ability or he simply decided to make him unable of replicating it on purpose)

You know who does remind me of (early) Cell? Early Bebi. Although I guess the takeover the world part is more like Garlic Jr.

[angeldreamZ004]

You know who does remind me of (early) Cell? Early Bebi. Although I guess the takeover the world part is more like Garlic Jr.

I think Garlic Jr. reminds a lot of Piccolo. From him and his father backstory, to the antagonism between him and Kami. His movie borrows a lot of elements from the Piccolo Daimao and Majunior arcs while mixing them with a few new ideas in a Raditz-like context.

[super michael]

I think it would have been to see more of Future Trunks and Present Gohan being together, since in the future time line they are basically master and student. It would have been good to see Future Trunks and Present Gohan train together.

Instead of Future Trunks training alone the second time in the ROSAT, he trains with Gohan. Then whatever Gohan learned from Goku, he can teach Future Trunks.
For some reason Future Trunks only had his eyes on Vegeta.


I guess Videl fans and Goten and Trunks fans got one thing in common, we wanted to see them more involved in the story.
As for Videl getting beat up, that is not really a problem. It is no different than many other characters getting beat up. Now Videl not being involved in the story that yes is a problem.

[PhantomSaiyan]

I think it would have been to see more of Future Trunks and Present Gohan being together, since in the future time line they are basically master and student. It would have been good to see Future Trunks and Present Gohan train together.

Instead of Future Trunks training alone the second time in the ROSAT, he trains with Gohan. Then whatever Gohan learned from Goku, he can teach Future Trunks.
For some reason Future Trunks only had his eyes on Vegeta.


I guess Videl fans and Goten and Trunks fans got one thing in common, we wanted to see them more involved in the story.
As for Videl getting beat up, that is not really a problem. It is no different than many other characters getting beat up. Now Videl not being involved in the story that yes is a problem.

100% agree, there was some opportunity for some great moments with Trunks and Present Gohan and Toriyama did absolutely nothing with it.
I get he was writing it week to week with no planning but come on, this master student dynamic basically writes itself

[The Dark Knight]

I think it would have been to see more of Future Trunks and Present Gohan being together, since in the future time line they are basically master and student. It would have been good to see Future Trunks and Present Gohan train together.

I don't think Trunks should've been the hero, as the ending he got was exactly what it should've been, but I do think his and Gohan's relationship was a MASSIVE missed opportunity.

I agree with you both; this would've been that one missing scene that Gohan needed to truly justify his big role at the end. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the one and only time those two interacted was when they went to investigate the other time machine with Bulma; it was very odd of Toriyama to not give them more to do together.

[BernardoCairo]

Reading these posts, it seems to me the Zamasu arc has replaced the Buu arc as the arc the fandom is most divided on.

I think the Boo arc works better in the manga, where the pacing is faster and things don't drag on for so long. In my opinion, it remains the weakest arc of the original story, but I enjoy it as a sort of Dragon Ball parody, with Toriyama poking fun at much of the seriousness found in the previous three arcs. I also like the premise that "no single warrior can defeat Majin Boo" and how that leads to the Genkidama finale. Overall, however, the middle section of the arc (featuring Gotenks and Gohan) is weak and cluttered with too much going on. This is where the anime takes a hit, as the fights drag on excessively. Things just take too long to unfold.
By comparison, the Future Trunks arc doesn't have many redeeming qualities, in my opinion. It is even more confusing and lacks that grand finale. At least the Boo arc starts and ends well, with Goku and Vegeta as solid protagonists.

I believe that, overall, the extra time Toriyama had to create the original arcs was a positive thing. He and his editors could make changes and devote the necessary time to making everything grander. With Super, it almost seemed like they couldn't commit to a single story for more than a few months. That changed a bit later on, when Toyotaro's manga took center stage.

[The Dark Knight]

I believe that, overall, the extra time Toriyama had to create the original arcs was a positive thing. He and his editors could make changes and devote the necessary time to making everything grander. With Super, it almost seemed like they couldn't commit to a single story for more than a few months. That changed a bit later on, when Toyotaro's manga took center stage.

The days of arcs being given actual space and time to tell a complete story are long behind us now, as current-day Dragon Ball is all about the marketing and getting to the next big thing as quick as possible. The Demon Realm is the perfect setting for that long-term storytelling we got back in the day, where we could get 50-70 episodes dedicated to telling a proper story. Unfortunately though, this isn't the 80s and 90s, so all that potential was squandered on a 20 episode series that was more focused on getting to the finish line than telling a proper story. Despite being such a short arc, it was still too long for the short attention span of today's audience, which probably explains why the Super remake is cutting its arcs down to a further 5-10 episodes each.