True Legendary Super Saiyan form thoughts

[Hulk10]

I wonder if the True Legendary Super Saiyan form that Kale achieved in the anime and DBS Broly did in the manga could potentially possess a bulked up version like the Type C Super Saiyan does. Or maybe the shrinking of Kale is just her version.

[angeldreamZ004]

I think they were supposed to be the same. I mean, the way you see it I think depends on the media, because the way I understand is that Toei didn't view those forms the same way Toriyama (and maybe Toyotaro) did.
I say this because the third transformation of Broly seen in the movie (the one where he's bulkier with green hair) is exclusive to the movie. Toriyama didn't view Broly having that form, so he's supposed to go up to his version of Yellow Haired SSJ only, which is what is seen in the manga flashbacks.
In the manga we don't see Kale controlling her LSSJ form, so it's hard to discuss about it, but when it comes to Broly, I interpret that it's simply his SSJ form that Toriyama viewed as his full power, but controlled, so I think Broly's regular SSJ form seen in the manga is the controlled equivalent to his berserk state which he awakens after Freeza kills Paragus, but not considering his LSSJ form because that is exclusive to the film.

I believe Kale in the anime is supposed to follow the same idea as Z Broly, but with the addition of the restrained LSSJ form that we didn't see with the old Broly. Basically:

Anime: Base -> SSJ (Kale only) -> LSSJ / Controlled LSSJ
2018 Movie: Base -> Ikari (Broly only) -> Berserk SSJ -> LSSJ (SSJ Full Power)
Manga: Base -> Ikari (Broly only) -> Berserk SSJ / Controlled SSJ

Toei pretty much added one extra form for the two is what I interpret. That said, I view Berserk SSJ A.K.A Manga version of LSSJ as the bulky version of controlled LSSJ (True SSJ) already, it's this way for Broly and I think it can be the same for Kale but we don't see it.
For the anime, Kale is almost the same as the manga but with the difference that she has a regular SSJ meaning a controlled SSJ separate from Controlled LSSJ.
The 2018 Movie I don't know as we didn't see a continuation for that by Toei. LSSJ either replaced SSJ1 as Broly's full power state conflicting with Toriyama's intent, or treated SSJ1 as a intermediary, like 50% of the form. I think it's the former as Official source seems to treat it as a separate transformation in my view.

Also, when Gogeta fires the Kamehameha in the movie, I have no idea what form is supposed to be, maybe it's the controlled SSJ, but there's no indication if it's SSJ1 or LSSJ, and the manga version of that scene still has Broly in the uncontrolled form.

[Kaboom]

As far as I'm concerned, the "True Legendary Super Saiyan" is the real Broli as he was in Z Movie 8. Unlike his later brain-damaged M11 self or the ripoff DBS version, he wasn't just an out-of-control berserker who didn't know what he was doing. He was fully conscious and aware of his actions, but simply reveled in being brutal and destructive like the old legends actually described.

That's how Broli should function as a character and an antagonist, and nothing that's tried to copy it since then has managed to understand or recapture it. The idea of a "controlled version" of the LSS form is just missing the point, like basically everything else modern DB tries to revamp.

[Zebra]

I say this because the third transformation of Broly seen in the movie (the one where he's bulkier with green hair) is exclusive to the movie. Toriyama didn't view Broly having that form, so he's supposed to go up to his version of Yellow Haired SSJ only, which is what is seen in the manga flashbacks.

Broly's Super Saiyan is clearly a yellow-green in the flashbacks. Not purely yellow like the regular Super Saiyan forms.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

[angeldreamZ004]

I made this to help with visuals in case you think that my text-only explanation was too confusing.

I know, that's why in the part you quote I said "his version of Yellow Haired SSJ Only". My point was that in order to understand how these forms work between the 2018 Movie and the manga is by actually looking into behind the scenes details. The key comment being from Naohiro Shintani, where he said that the Bulkier Green Haired Form was his idea based on the 1993 Broly movie, and not Toriyama's idea as he didn't design it.
It's not confirmed if what we see in the manga flashbacks really captures Toriyama's original intent and he told it to Toyotaro, it could be the way Toyotaro himself viewed it. But I think it's more plausible that it was how Toriyama saw it if we connect some dots.

- Shintani says he designed "SSJ Full Power" for Broly with green hair.
- Broly's transformation doesn't appear with the same green hair in the manga, but a green-ish yellow only.
- Shintani says Toriyama only designed Broly up to a form where he's still using the armor.
- The Last time Broly is still using the armor in the movie is in his "Regular SSJ" form, with yellow hair.
- When Broly transforms into "SSJ Full Power" in the movie, it doesn't feel impactful when compared to his SSJ and Ikari transformations, suggesting that it was a decision made from a artistic visual side only (possibly Shintani), and not a narrative side (Toriyama)
- Broly only has one transformation in the manga flashbacks.

The only problem I see is that we don't know which form in the movie is supposed to be the one seen in the manga. If the one in the manga is supposed to be SSJ1 from the movie, and Shintani added extra form (SSJFP), or if the SSJ1 doesn't exist in the manga, and the form seen there is supposed to be SSJFP. Or if both forms in the movie are supposed to be the one seen in the manga, this latter I think is the most unlikely one because of what the official site says.

Considering only manga and its colors, it's very close to Kale's, which leads me to believe it's meant to be the same form she used, but i think it was never confirmed.

[The Dark Knight]

I believe that GT's Ssj4 is the legendary form mentioned by Vegeta on Namek, as it requires the user to not only be capable of transforming into a regular Ssj, it requires them to do so as a Great Ape, then on top of that to regain consciousness of who they are. In addition, it was hinted by Bulma that only pure-blooded Saiyans were capable of taking on the form, adding more weight to this theory. Of course this is in the context of the original anime's run, as neither the original manga nor the modern material went in this direction.

[Koitsukai]

I believe that GT's Ssj4 is the legendary form mentioned by Vegeta on Namek, as it requires the user to not only be capable of transforming into a regular Ssj, it requires them to do so as a Great Ape, then on top of that to regain consciousness of who they are. In addition, it was hinted by Bulma that only pure-blooded Saiyans were capable of taking on the form, adding more weight to this theory. Of course this is in the context of the original anime's run, as neither the original manga nor the modern material went in this direction.

I always had the same headcanon, since DB kept overriding itself like the previous shit meant nothing. The design, the many conditions required to obtain the form, the immense power that dwarfs the "original" LSS, power that was only and truly surpassed by the amalgamation of 7 magical dragons (sans Goku's mental disability vs S-17).
Since Toei was so keen on having Goku have his cake and eat it too, I wouldn't be surprised if some writer had the same idea in mind.
I also wouldn’t be surprised if nobody else in the world ever saw it this way.

[Hulk10]

I think they were supposed to be the same. I mean, the way you see it I think depends on the media, because the way I understand is that Toei didn't view those forms the same way Toriyama (and maybe Toyotaro) did.
I say this because the third transformation of Broly seen in the movie (the one where he's bulkier with green hair) is exclusive to the movie. Toriyama didn't view Broly having that form, so he's supposed to go up to his version of Yellow Haired SSJ only, which is what is seen in the manga flashbacks.
In the manga we don't see Kale controlling her LSSJ form, so it's hard to discuss about it, but when it comes to Broly, I interpret that it's simply his SSJ form that Toriyama viewed as his full power, but controlled, so I think Broly's regular SSJ form seen in the manga is the controlled equivalent to his berserk state which he awakens after Freeza kills Paragus, but not considering his LSSJ form because that is exclusive to the film.

I believe Kale in the anime is supposed to follow the same idea as Z Broly, but with the addition of the restrained LSSJ form that we didn't see with the old Broly. Basically:

Anime: Base -> SSJ (Kale only) -> LSSJ / Controlled LSSJ
2018 Movie: Base -> Ikari (Broly only) -> Berserk SSJ -> LSSJ (SSJ Full Power)
Manga: Base -> Ikari (Broly only) -> Berserk SSJ / Controlled SSJ

Toei pretty much added one extra form for the two is what I interpret. That said, I view Berserk SSJ A.K.A Manga version of LSSJ as the bulky version of controlled LSSJ (True SSJ) already, it's this way for Broly and I think it can be the same for Kale but we don't see it.
For the anime, Kale is almost the same as the manga but with the difference that she has a regular SSJ meaning a controlled SSJ separate from Controlled LSSJ.
The 2018 Movie I don't know as we didn't see a continuation for that by Toei. LSSJ either replaced SSJ1 as Broly's full power state conflicting with Toriyama's intent, or treated SSJ1 as a intermediary, like 50% of the form. I think it's the former as Official source seems to treat it as a separate transformation in my view.

Also, when Gogeta fires the Kamehameha in the movie, I have no idea what form is supposed to be, maybe it's the controlled SSJ, but there's no indication if it's SSJ1 or LSSJ, and the manga version of that scene still has Broly in the uncontrolled form.

Type C and the form I mentioned could be the same. Honestly I prefer the old Broly’s transformation line. While I do find the idea of Kale having slimmed down LSSJ forms appealing. Broly’s old form line up is better. But I like the super versions gentle nature better than the older versions insane viciousness.

[Zebra]

I always saw Type C as just being Broly's regular SS1 form. Type A (the blue/purple one) is simply SS1 Broly restricted by Paragus's device. Fundamentally speaking, it's the same thing as the semi-transformed state Gokuu used against the Ginyuu Force in Hell; Broly is just forced to use it due to Paragus.

Pseudo Super Saiyan from the Lord Slug movie is basically the same thing, too; Gokuu goes berserk because he has less control of himself.

[angeldreamZ004]

Spoiler:

Type C and the form I mentioned could be the same. Honestly I prefer the old Broly’s transformation line. While I do find the idea of Kale having slimmed down LSSJ forms appealing. Broly’s old form line up is better. But I like the super versions gentle nature better than the older versions insane viciousness.

[spoiler)
I always saw Type C as just being Broly's regular SS1 form. Type A (the blue/purple one) is simply SS1 Broly restricted by Paragus's device. Fundamentally speaking, it's the same thing as the semi-transformed state Gokuu used against the Ginyuu Force in Hell; Broly is just forced to use it due to Paragus.

Pseudo Super Saiyan from the Lord Slug movie is basically the same thing, too; Gokuu goes berserk because he has less control of himself.
[/spoiler]

I think that is very likely how exactly it works, the problem is all these differente names that makes it confusing. The Old Guidebooks give different nomenclatures for each Z Broly transformation, so it goes from simply calling SSJ and LSSJ to "SSJ Types-" and "SSJ Final Form". While the modern sources seem to have no communication between different material media. So Kale in the manga is called LSSJ, then later in stuff like videogames using her anime counterpart it's SSJ (Berserk). Super Broly has his two post-Ikari forms from the movie called "Super Saiyan" and "Super Saiyan Full Power". Then later, we have "True Legendary Super Saiyan" for both Kale's latest transformation in the anime and Broly's in the manga.

And I agree too on Z Broly's 1st transformation in both of his first two movies being the same transformation, just under different circumstances which is why in the image I made has both forms in the same space.

[Shintoki]

I made this to help with visuals in case you think that my text-only explanation was too confusing.

I know, that's why in the part you quote I said "his version of Yellow Haired SSJ Only". My point was that in order to understand how these forms work between the 2018 Movie and the manga is by actually looking into behind the scenes details. The key comment being from Naohiro Shintani, where he said that the Bulkier Green Haired Form was his idea based on the 1993 Broly movie, and not Toriyama's idea as he didn't design it.
It's not confirmed if what we see in the manga flashbacks really captures Toriyama's original intent and he told it to Toyotaro, it could be the way Toyotaro himself viewed it. But I think it's more plausible that it was how Toriyama saw it if we connect some dots.

- Shintani says he designed "SSJ Full Power" for Broly with green hair.
- Broly's transformation doesn't appear with the same green hair in the manga, but a green-ish yellow only.
- Shintani says Toriyama only designed Broly up to a form where he's still using the armor.
- The Last time Broly is still using the armor in the movie is in his "Regular SSJ" form, with yellow hair.
- When Broly transforms into "SSJ Full Power" in the movie, it doesn't feel impactful when compared to his SSJ and Ikari transformations, suggesting that it was a decision made from a artistic visual side only (possibly Shintani), and not a narrative side (Toriyama)
- Broly only has one transformation in the manga flashbacks.

The only problem I see is that we don't know which form in the movie is supposed to be the one seen in the manga. If the one in the manga is supposed to be SSJ1 from the movie, and Shintani added extra form (SSJFP), or if the SSJ1 doesn't exist in the manga, and the form seen there is supposed to be SSJFP. Or if both forms in the movie are supposed to be the one seen in the manga, this latter I think is the most unlikely one because of what the official site says.

Considering only manga and its colors, it's very close to Kale's, which leads me to believe it's meant to be the same form she used, but i think it was never confirmed.

you know, am surprised no one ever questioned why toriyama drew broly as pupil-less. toriyama going with the super android 13 approach?

[angeldreamZ004]

you know, am surprised no one ever questioned why toriyama drew broly as pupil-less. toriyama going with the super android 13 approach?

Yeah I don't think it was ever given an explanation for why they look similar, I've noticed that years ago personally and the fact that 13 was the most recent movie villain at the time also speaks for itself. Though I think Toriyama (and maybe even Toei, given what is said in some guides) also had the Vegeta and Trunks SSJ Grades in mind when creating Broly.

[Shintoki]

you know, am surprised no one ever questioned why toriyama drew broly as pupil-less. toriyama going with the super android 13 approach?

Yeah I don't think it was ever given an explanation for why they look similar, I've noticed that years ago personally and the fact that 13 was the most recent movie villain at the time also speaks for itself. Though I think Toriyama (and maybe even Toei, given what is said in some guides) also had the Vegeta and Trunks SSJ Grades in mind when creating Broly.

in retrospect, this implies that Z broly never had full proper control on his form if we go by the ''pupil-less = berserk'' notion that we go by nowadays.


in reality tho, Z broly likely was just evil natured and was still in control despite the pupil-ness at the time but with how Toei retconned the form with kale, i don't know anymore XD

[angeldreamZ004]

Spoiler:

in retrospect, this implies that Z broly never had full proper control on his form if we go by the ''pupil-less = berserk'' notion that we go by nowadays.


in reality tho, Z broly likely was just evil natured and was still in control despite the pupil-ness at the time but with how Toei retconned the form with kale, i don't know anymore XD

You're right that nowadays that eye style always represent berserk mode where the characters have no control of themselves, last time I think we saw was with Gas. But with Z Broly I believe it's definitely the latter, the form where he's supposed to not have control of himself is his regular SSJ under Paragus' control, while LSSJ is his true nature in freedom. I feel a lot of people say he's out of control because of the second movie, as it gives this impression but I think it's because of the way he's depicted, where he barely talks and generally acts like a animal or some kind of force of nature, very similar feeling to Janemba or Hildegarne, or even Bio Broly.