What would've been the best way to do an "Evil Gokuu" arc?

[Zebra]

I hated the Zamasu arc. Gokuu Black felt like a rehash of Turless and Ginyuu-Gokuu to me. I would've definitely preferred Gokuu Black to literally just be an evil clone of Gokuu, or just an evil Gokuu from another universe (maybe it could've just been Future Gokuu brainwashed?). I know that seems more predictable, but Gokuu Black himself is significantly more popular than Zamasu, who isn't that popular at all. In the 2018 V-Jump popularity poll for the franchise's supervillains, Gokuu Black got over 10% of votes, whereas Fused Zamasu got less than 2% and regular Zamasu got less than 1%.

Actually, I would've preferred Gokuu himself to just get brainwashed or fall under the influence of something, kinda like that Dragon Ball After doujinshi by Young Jijii. But I guess they can't show the real Gokuu killing innocent people; using another Gokuu or a fake Gokuu allows more freedom.

On the other hand, was it really necessary to have an evil Gokuu at all? I feel like if they used the real Gokuu, they could've cleverly subverted it by revealing Gokuu hadn't actually turned evil at all. Something like "The Apprentice" arc from the 2003 Teen Titans cartoon. You can't have the real Gokuu killing innocent people, but you can still have him beat up Gohan, Vegeeta, Piccolo, etc and turn into a pink Super Saiyan form.

If I really had to keep Zamasu, though, I would've just made him a shapeshifter who takes Gokuu's appearance after acquiring his DNA. Body switching is too blatantly ripping off Ginyuu.

[Chuquita]

So before they revealed it was Zamasu using a body-swapping wish, I had theories and hopes that never came true.

1) Before we saw Goku Black make his debut in the show--before we knew anything about him other than here's the back of the top of his shirt--I was hoping for an alternate timeline Goku where everything had just gone completely sideways post-Buu arc the way it did for Future Trunks in the Cell arc, but worse, everyone Goku cared about is dead-- something killed them that he can't wish back to life and he's just a broken individual who's been jumping timelines for ages; originally trying to fix things, then trying to get back home but can't find his way back, and then finally falling into his base instincts and is just traveling to fight because he's got nothing left.
That's what I was rooting for. I guessed wrong.

2) After he debuted and we learned about the 0 ningen plan I thought this was going to be like Bebi/Baby from GT where some malevolent entity has possessed a Goku from another timeline and Goku was aware of what was going on but was unable to stop the one possessing/puppeteering his body.
Or
This entity had used the potara to fuse with Goku against his will and that's why he has a different eye design and was skinnier. So like closer to what we got, but Goku Black isn't just an empty shell for Zamasu to wear.

[angeldreamZ004]

Personally I would love to see a arc where he gets a new transformation or power that corrupts him. Not in the sense of what the SSJ1 did originally, as that was most linked to emotions. I mean something that goes to the point of completely corrupting the spirit, making it negative and touch the concept of evil ki. It sounds similar to what Out of Control SSJ from Heroes / Kamba or Giblet's dark ki forms from Legends did.
But in my imagination it would be more complex than those, and it would require the other characters to do something like a exorcism to defeat him, as it would be more like a true demonic possesion, more advanced than what was done with Babidi and his servants / Majin Vegeta. His soul would be fully "hacked" by a external source, going beyond than just controlling his body, makiing it feel completely different from Ginyu and Zamasu, and others like Baby.

The problem with Goku in this case though is that like you said, he's meant to be like a paladin, the messiah of the series, someone who never becomes evil, so it's very unlikely they would make comit to making him evil. The only escape being body switch, possession or cloning.

If I really had to keep Zamasu, though, I would've just made him a shapeshifter who takes Gokuu's appearance after acquiring his DNA. Body switching is too blatantly ripping off Ginyuu.

I like the idea of a shapeshipter but dislike him using science for that. He's a supernatural being, this kind shouldn't rely on conventional studies to do such things but the occult in my view. There are better characters suited for the DNA related stuff, such as Cell or the other Androids.

The difference between Zamasu and Ginyu being that Zamasu actually learned and adapted Goku's body to his Kaioshin soul, so he kept getting stronger.
Ginyu stole Goku's body but completely stagnated in his own strength, that's why he couldn't even beat Gohan and Kuririn. Though you can use a argument that it would've been different if he trained.

Gokuu Black himself is significantly more popular than Zamasu, who isn't that popular at all. In the 2018 V-Jump popularity poll for the franchise's supervillains, Gokuu Black got over 10% of votes, whereas Fused Zamasu got less than 2% and regular Zamasu got less than 1%.

While that isn't wrong, I would be careful when judging the villains' popularity based on that poll. First, it seems that, correct me if I'm wrong, this is estimative based on Japanese data only, and you know Dragon Ball and its characters have much large popularity outside of Japan.

Second, this is from early 2018, the climax of the ToP arc, the excitement for that arc and seeig how Jiren would be defeated wss huge at the time, so that contributes a lot to why Jiren got the 3rd place for example. Same goes for the 1st and 2rd places which are Freeza and Broly, the dame arc had Freeza and a character who mimicks Broly.
It's not much fair to make comparison with Future Trunks arc villains as they were already a little more than a year behind when the poll was made. Making their way into the top 10 / 15 is already big, especially if that was indeed just Japanese centric.

This entity had used the potara to fuse with Goku against his will and that's why he has a different eye design and was skinnier. So like closer to what we got, but Goku Black isn't just an empty shell for Zamasu to wear.

It would contribute to the concept of him being stronger than Goku. Though being a fusion would make him stronger than he actually was if we use the power boost from the other fusions as reference.

[Zebra]

I like the idea of a shapeshipter but dislike him using science for that. He's a supernatural being, this kind shouldn't rely on conventional studies to do such things but the occult in my view. There are better characters suited for the DNA related stuff, such as Cell or the other Androids.

It doesn't have to be through science. I was thinking through sorcery and witchcraft; by ingesting someone's blood, Zamasu can take on their appearance.

The difference between Zamasu and Ginyu being that Zamasu actually learned and adapted Goku's body to his Kaioshin soul, so he kept getting stronger.
Ginyu stole Goku's body but completely stagnated in his own strength, that's why he couldn't even beat Gohan and Kuririn. Though you can use a argument that it would've been different if he trained.

In the anime, Ginyuu was beginning to master Gokuu's body.

It's not much fair to make comparison with Future Trunks arc villains as they were already a little more than a year behind when the poll was made.

Didn't stop Gokuu Black from getting a lot of votes.

[angeldreamZ004]

It doesn't have to be through science. I was thinking through sorcery and witchcraft; by ingesting someone's blood, Zamasu can take on their appearance.

Then in that case I really like it. Though i don't think modern Dragon Ball would go far in using blood for that. Maybe off-screen or in the manga only.

In the anime, Ginyuu was beginning to master Gokuu's body.

That's why I said it could be different if he was given the time to train. The point of my comparison with Zamasu was more about the fact that it was a body switch between a Human soul and a Kaioshin soul. This allowed this specific swap to have a few unique traits, such as him not having to train to use SSJB (/R) because he already taps into God Ki by nature as it's part of his being, only having to watch Goku doing it in order to replicate it and a few other techniques like the Shunkan Ido.
Ginyu was a body switch between mortal soul and mortal soul, that means to replicate everything Goku learned, he would have to train to learn how to do it.

Didn't stop Gokuu Black from getting a lot of votes.

I forgot to mention the fact that it made no reason to separate him from Zamasu and Zamasu Gattai for this poll. Yes, he's probably the most popular version of Zamasu, but still, he's Zamasu, and he technically works as one of the forms of the character just like other villains had different forms. Still the poll doesn't give space to the other forms of Freeza, or Cell, or, I believe you'll agree with me in this one, Majin Boo, who could've been separated into at least 3 different characters (Fat Boo - Super Boo - Kid Boo), still, the poll decided to take Majin Boo in general as a single character, which makes no sense with how Zamasu / Goku Black was treated.
So I think it makes sense to say that a lot of people voted for Goku Black in the poll just because they view him as the character of Zamasu in general and being his most popular form, making the other two forms obsolete for the voting. That doesn't mean normal Zamasu and Gattai are unpopular in comparison as people as a lot of people who like Goku black also really like Zamasu, as one of them is a user in this forum.
And again, it's probably a Japanese centric poll, Zamasu got lot of popularity outside of Japan. So I really don't think that poll is good enough to judge the characters' popularity.

[Zebra]

Then in that case I really like it. Though i don't think modern Dragon Ball would go far in using blood for that. Maybe off-screen or in the manga only.

It doesn't have to be gory. Say Zamasu gets some of Gokuu's blood on his fingers after cutting him on the cheek. Zamasu ingests that blood, and he can take on Gokuu's appearance.

Still the poll doesn't give space to the other forms of Freeza, or Cell, or, I believe you'll agree with me in this one, Majin Boo, who could've been separated into at least 3 different characters (Fat Boo - Super Boo - Kid Boo), still, the poll decided to take Majin Boo in general as a single character, which makes no sense with how Zamasu / Goku Black was treated.

Fat Boo probably wasn't counted as a villain. They probably should've separated Super Boo and Pure Boo, though, seeing as they separated regular Zamasu and Fused Zamasu. Regular Zamasu and Fused Zamasu are more similar to each other than Super Boo and Pure Boo are, after all.

[SorikaiWolf89]

Actually, I would've preferred Gokuu himself to just get brainwashed or fall under the influence of something, kinda like that Dragon Ball After doujinshi by Young Jijii. But I guess they can't show the real Gokuu killing innocent people; using another Gokuu or a fake Gokuu allows more freedom.

If you’re looking for an alternative “evil Goku” besides Goku Black , Turles, or Ginyu Goku then literally the only option left is Goku being brainwashed / mind controlled like you mentioned by either Baby or Babidi for example

The chance of there ever being a Majin Goku is pretty much zero though bc Goku is too pure hearted and has too strong of a sense of justice to be mind controlled by Babidi as only those with evil or impurity in their hearts can be controlled by him

Baby though CAN take over Goku’s body but Goku will still be in control of his own mind unless Baby overpowers him enough to fully take control of his mind as well similar to what Baby did with Vegeta

[SupremeKai25]

The one Toriyama wrote.

I'm sure everyone remembers those early 2000s fanfictions about an "evil Goku clone". Generic, uninspired trite.

What makes our official Goku Black work is that he's not Goku at all, he's a spoiled, jealous, fickle deity who stole everything from Goku. That is a subversion on Toriyama's part. This is the difference between a master and fanfiction. Good stories are all about subversion and twists (in good measure of course).

The twist in this case being: This "Evil Goku" isn't actually a cool version of Goku who never hit his head, but a pompous twat who pretends to be a Saiyan, but is actually a fraud.

"Evil Saiyans" obsessed with strength are a dime a dozen in Dragon Ball. But an evil, delusional god who stole Goku's body out of jealousy and shame at his own weakness has never been done before. That's how you tell the story was written by Toriyama - it's not predictable.

[JulieYBM]

I think the criticism of Goku from the Tournament of Power arc should have just been played fully sincerely and as the thesis statement of the arc. Goku is continuously a major danger to lives and this has now culminated in his actions threatening the lives of entire universes. The arc should have simply been about killing Goku and telling the audience that this was the series' view point.

Goku doesn't change, Dragon Ball does.

[super michael]

Unfortunately Goku did change in DBS but for the worse, but just because he changed for the worse doesn't mean that he can't change for the better.

I agree Goku was let of easy for going to Zeno knowing the risk and the powers that he has, then having the story say Zeno was planning to erase everything to begin with. Then suddenly the winning gets a wish from the Super Dragon Ball, when originally there was no prize except for living.

Goku can change, but that depends on the one in charge.

[angeldreamZ004]

I think the criticism of Goku from the Tournament of Power arc should have just been played fully sincerely and as the thesis statement of the arc. Goku is continuously a major danger to lives and this has now culminated in his actions threatening the lives of entire universes. The arc should have simply been about killing Goku and telling the audience that this was the series' view point.
Goku doesn't change, Dragon Ball does.

I can tell you got that idea based on the manga. Because it's almost exactly the same idea as when Beerus fought the other Hakaishins.

[Zebra]

"Evil Saiyans" obsessed with strength are a dime a dozen in Dragon Ball. But an evil, delusional god who stole Goku's body out of jealousy and shame at his own weakness has never been done before. That's how you tell the story was written by Toriyama - it's not predictable.

That's no different from any other body stealing fanfiction.

I actually came up with a fanfic just like that back in 2014: https://web.archive.org/web/20180620065 ... 8507119/1/

After Goku sacrifices his life against Cell, he learns of the Other World Tournament and trains for it. The winner of the tournament is to receive "special one-on-one training" from the Grand Kai, but in reality, Grand Kai plans on taking control of the winner's body in order become strong enough to destroy the Universe. The reason why the Grand Kai wants to destroy the Universe is because he wants to create a new and better one in its place (so he's like an anti-villain of some sort). And so, Goku wins the tournament and gets his body taken over by the Grand Kai, who proceeds to devastate the whole Universe.

The Zamasu arc isn't one bit original.

[Koitsukai]

I guess an actual evil Goku would've been better instead of just his body, because it would be Goku's soul inside his body. Goku would fight Goku, not just his mortal coil.
An older and corrupted Goku of some sort or just a Goku that never hit his head and grew up evil and found his way to the main TL.

Maybe the moral of the story could be something Goku needs to avoid to become evil bla bla.

But I don't really have many complaints about how the Zamasu arc was envisioned. I dislike the ending, though.

[SupremeKai25]

"Evil Saiyans" obsessed with strength are a dime a dozen in Dragon Ball. But an evil, delusional god who stole Goku's body out of jealousy and shame at his own weakness has never been done before. That's how you tell the story was written by Toriyama - it's not predictable.

That's no different from any other body stealing fanfiction.

Except it is. What makes Zamasu unique is not that he has a cool or deep motive, it's that he DOESN'T have a cool or deep motive. He PRETENDS to have some cool ulterior motive "about the world", but in reality he's just a lame loser who got salty he lost a sparring match. Proven by the fact that Future Zamasu, who never met Goku, lacked the guts to turn evil. He's not an "anti-hero" and he's not supposed to be "badass". At his core, he's supposed to be a petty bastard throwing a temper tantrum.

Your fanfiction isn't interesting. "Cool anti-hero villain who wants to destroy the world for cool, badass motive" is a dime a dozen.

[JulieYBM]

I think the criticism of Goku from the Tournament of Power arc should have just been played fully sincerely and as the thesis statement of the arc. Goku is continuously a major danger to lives and this has now culminated in his actions threatening the lives of entire universes. The arc should have simply been about killing Goku and telling the audience that this was the series' view point.
Goku doesn't change, Dragon Ball does.

I can tell you got that idea based on the manga. Because it's almost exactly the same idea as when Beerus fought the other Hakaishins.

I don't remember what the comic did, actually. My idea was based on the way that Goku is annoyingly written and the series always sidesteps how much what he does is shitty behavior, so I decided to simply go from there and finally have the series do something refreshing by breaking its own rules.

[Hellspawn28]

There was the theory that Black was Future Goku who got brought back with the Super Dragon Balls by Zamasu as a evil goku. Some people thought he still had the heart virus because of it.

[Zebra]

Except it is. What makes Zamasu unique is not that he has a cool or deep motive, it's that he DOESN'T have a cool or deep motive. He PRETENDS to have some cool ulterior motive "about the world", but in reality he's just a lame loser who got salty he lost a sparring match.

That sparring match wasn't even in the manga.

He's not an "anti-hero"

That's not what an anti-villain is. An anti-hero is someone like Vegeeta, basically an edgy or villainous hero. They tend to do good things with bad intentions.

An anti-villain is a heroic villain. They do bad things with good intentions.

and he's not supposed to be "badass".

Gokuu Black was most definitely intended to be badass.

At his core, he's supposed to be a petty bastard throwing a temper tantrum.

According to Toriyama (what you have quoted in your signature), Zamasu is a good person at his core. His sense of justice was so strong that it made him do evil things.

Your fanfiction isn't interesting.

Zamasu is a Kaioh who wants to kill all mortals to bring about a better universe.

My fanfic was about a Kaioh who wants to destroy the universe to replace it with a better one.

It's almost note-for-note same idea, and they both steal Gokuu's body to achieve their goals. The Kaioh in my fanfic can be dismissed as a petty bastard just like Zamasu. That's a very common trope itself; a God being a petty brat or bastard.

[SupremeKai25]

That sparring match wasn't even in the manga.

Which is why I vastly prefer Toei's rendition of Zamasu (note, I said Zamasu, not Goku Black. More on this later). Still, the core idea from Toriyama is that he's envious of Goku and driven by spite against him. We cannot ignore that there is a version of Zamasu who never knew Goku existed, and this version was not motivated enough to go rogue.

An anti-villain is a heroic villain. They do bad things with good intentions.

That's exactly what makes Zamasu work compared to the fanfictions. He's NOT acting with good intentions. He thinks he is, but we as the audience know he's mostly just frustrated that Goku got stronger than the gods.

The "motivation about the world" doesn't describe the character in its entirety. Not even close. There's rage, frustration, and shame, towards himself and his fellow gods, which he conveniently hides behind a "noble purpose".

Gokuu Black was most definitely intended to be badass.

Which is why, while I vastly prefer Toei's version of Zamasu himself, I'm a lot more mixed on Black. Toyotaro did a better job of showing that Black, at his core, is Zamasu. He's still the same loser who could never beat a Saiyan fairly. In the manga, Black turns pathetic rather quickly. Toei was on the right path in the anime until 64 where they erased Vegeta's victory and gave Black a new asspull. Toei has a penchant for raising the stakes dramatically when it doesn't make sense narratively.

Black in the Manga is definitely pathetic. Dude was only able to turn Super Saiyan 2 and would've been killed fairly easily by Vegeta if he wasn't toying with his victim.

According to Toriyama (what you have quoted in your signature), Zamasu is a good person at his core. His sense of justice was so strong that it made him do evil things.

The two are not mutually exclusive. He can be a good person obsessed with the "protection" of the cosmos, and also a spiteful bastard who became obsessed with Goku for a silly reason.

Zamasu is one of the most psychologically complex villains Toriyama's ever written. He's brimming with character traits, and like all good villains, these traits clash with one another resulting in hypocrisy and contradictions.

I've yet to see a Dragon Ball fanfiction with such complex villains. You fanfiction's villain lacks a lot of what makes Zamasu nuanced in terms of hypocrisy.

[angeldreamZ004]

I don't remember what the comic did, actually. My idea was based on the way that Goku is annoyingly written and the series always sidesteps how much what he does is shitty behavior, so I decided to simply go from there and finally have the series do something refreshing by breaking its own rules.

Zeno had previously built a tournament game with all the Hakaishins but Beerus ended up falling asleep, pissing off Zeno, who almost discounted on all the Universes nearly destroying them, so the other Hakaishins had to calm him down, which made them all hate Beerus or see U7 as a problematic universe. Also Beerus himself contributed even more for the Hakaishins to view him and his universe negatively as he didn't try to understand why Goku suggested the tournament to the Zenos and he wasn't aware that they planned to erase some of the universes, they only saw Beerus blindly blaming Goku for everything. The other Hakaishins arrive in Zeno's palace complaning about him. So Beerus was ignorant and irresponsible just like the scenario you're imagining for Goku, the payoff is all the other Hakaishins trying to get rid of Beerus first in their demo tournament.

[Zebra]

Still, the core idea from Toriyama is that he's envious of Goku and driven by spite against him. We cannot ignore that there is a version of Zamasu who never knew Goku existed, and this version was not motivated enough to go rogue.

Future Zamasu didn't know about the Super Dragon Balls. Present Zamasu did.

That's exactly what makes Zamasu work compared to the fanfictions. He's NOT acting with good intentions. He thinks he is, but we as the audience know he's mostly just frustrated that Goku got stronger than the gods.

Again, the sparring match isn't even in the manga. Zamasu took Gokuu's body without meeting him first. Although Zamasu is offended by the fact a mortal can become stronger than a god, that's not why he decided to kill all mortals. He wants them all dead because he's seen how evil they can be, how they ruin their own planets, and how they never seem to improve no matter how much time passes.

The two are not mutually exclusive. He can be a good person obsessed with the "protection" of the cosmos, and also a spiteful bastard who became obsessed with Goku for a silly reason.

You were arguing that he's only the latter.

You fanfiction's villain lacks a lot of what makes Zamasu nuanced in terms of hypocrisy.

The Kaioh in my fanfic can be described as a hypocrite all the same, because he's doing something evil (destroy the universe) to do something good (create a better universe).

It was only a rough outline, granted, and admittedly I wasn't thinking about the "hypocrite" aspect much when I wrote it. Doesn't change that the base idea (Kaioh stealing Gokuu's body to create a "better" universe by killing people) is still the same, though.

If anything, I find Zamasu's hypocrisy to be part of what makes him a shitty character. He's supposedly a "good" person at his core, but he chooses to personally execute all mortals instead of simply wishing them all to die painlessly.