What would've been the best way to do an "Evil Gokuu" arc?

[super michael]

I know in the anime Zamasu traveling 1,000 year into the future to see how planet Babari evolved, which Zamasu saw they were still the same as bad as in the past. Did that happen in the manga also?

Zamasu saw the worst in mortals, but he didn't see the best in mortals.

[angeldreamZ004]

[JulieYBM]

I don't remember what the comic did, actually. My idea was based on the way that Goku is annoyingly written and the series always sidesteps how much what he does is shitty behavior, so I decided to simply go from there and finally have the series do something refreshing by breaking its own rules.

Zeno had previously built a tournament game with all the Hakaishins but Beerus ended up falling asleep, pissing off Zeno, who almost discounted on all the Universes nearly destroying them, so the other Hakaishins had to calm him down, which made them all hate Beerus or see U7 as a problematic universe. Also Beerus himself contributed even more for the Hakaishins to view him and his universe negatively as he didn't try to understand why Goku suggested the tournament to the Zenos and he wasn't aware that they planned to erase some of the universes, they only saw Beerus blindly blaming Goku for everything. The other Hakaishins arrive in Zeno's palace complaning about him. So Beerus was ignorant and irresponsible just like the scenario you're imagining for Goku, the payoff is all the other Hakaishins trying to get rid of Beerus first in their demo tournament.

This sounds boring lol

The anime did things correctly, it just didn't commit because they're making commercial art for kids.

[Zebra]

Maybe Future Gokuu, Future Gohan, and Future Vegeeta could all be revived by a god who brainwashes them to attack the main timeline. This god believes that there should only be one timeline, just like Aeos from Super Dragon Ball Heroes. Future Trunks would get brainwashed, too, and all four Future Saiyans would get pink Super Saiyan forms. We'd get fights like Present Gokuu vs. Future Gokuu, Present Gohan vs. Future Gohan, Present Trunks vs. Future Trunks, Present Vegeeta vs. Future Vegeeta, Present Vegett vs. Future Vegett (maybe one of them could be Gogeeta?), and Present Gotenks vs. Future Gohanks (you read that right, Gohanks).

But maybe there being evil versions of other characters would steal "Evil Gokuu"'s thunder.

So before they revealed it was Zamasu using a body-swapping wish, I had theories and hopes that never came true.

1) Before we saw Goku Black make his debut in the show--before we knew anything about him other than here's the back of the top of his shirt--I was hoping for an alternate timeline Goku where everything had just gone completely sideways post-Buu arc the way it did for Future Trunks in the Cell arc, but worse, everyone Goku cared about is dead-- something killed them that he can't wish back to life and he's just a broken individual who's been jumping timelines for ages; originally trying to fix things, then trying to get back home but can't find his way back, and then finally falling into his base instincts and is just traveling to fight because he's got nothing left.
That's what I was rooting for. I guessed wrong.

I like this idea, but it was probably beyond the scope of the writers.

This entity had used the potara to fuse with Goku against his will and that's why he has a different eye design and was skinnier. So like closer to what we got, but Goku Black isn't just an empty shell for Zamasu to wear.

I like this, too. Gokuu Black literally being a fusion of Gokuu and another character makes him feel more like his own character; he's not literally Gokuu, but he's not literally the other guy, either. He's his own entity like Gotenks, Gogeeta, Vegett, etc. If Gokuu Black was the result of Gokuu and Zamasu fusing rather than Zamasu stealing Gokuu's body, we'd be able to treat him separately from Zamasu without any issue. Him having some of Gokuu's personality traits would be nice, too; enjoys fighting like Gokuu, but hates all mortals like Zamasu.

Only issue, though, is why he'd look so much like just Gokuu if he's supposed to be a fusion. I guess this could be remedied by getting rid of Zamasu altogether and having a completely different character fuse with Gokuu; the fusion would have more of the other guy's traits while still looking very much like Gokuu. How about change the color of Gokuu Black's irises (can be red, blue, green, yellow, purple, white, etc. How about pink to foreshadow his pink Super Saiyan form? Maybe his base form's hair color can be black with a dark pinkish tint, like how Vegeeta's hair often has a reddish brown tint), give him villainous eyeliner (a la "Majin" Vegeeta), give him Turless's skin tone, give him "UI Omen"'s hairstyle, maybe add fangs and scars? Eh, I guess he'd basically just look like "UI Omen" Turless.

[Mr Baggins]

Well, first things first: Goku's early temperament suggests he never would've been genuinely "evil", even without Earth's influence – just more wild, and certainly no worse than his father. It's obviously equally difficult to imagine a circumstance that would turn him evil of his own volition.

Consequently, the only logical execution of an "evil Goku" is to have an entirely different, malicious being operate under the guise of Goku; hence Toriyama's Goku Black.

And as frequently critical as I might be of Toei's narrative choices, they deserve credit for taking this idea further by having Goku's biology bleed into Zamasu's behavior and spark a Saiyan passion for battle, without redeeming him or making him "good". I think that's about the closest you can realistically get to this concept without changing Goku's whole raison d'etre.

The best way was already done, for better or worse.

[Grimlock]

We can also have someone simply corrupt our beloved main character. Granolah saga may have given him plot armor, but I doubt Goku has an armor protecting him against evilness placed onto him, if one so chooses to do that to him.

[super michael]

If Goku stolen one of Merged Zamasu Potara and put it on himself, would that allow Goku to fuse with Merged Zamasu? In a way that could be a battle of the soul like who would take control of that fused body.

[Alruneia]

Having "our" Goku become directly evil is one of those things the writers are never gonna do. Maybe they think it'll permanently tarnish the image of the main character or something (even though Goku can get corrupted and then un-corrupted no problem), I'm not sure, anyway it's not gonna happen. So achieving "Evil Goku" through a body-hijacking villain like Zamasu is probably the best alternative we're ever gonna get.

You could easily have a villain who's "Evil Goku in spirit" who's basically just a villain with a subversion of Goku's personality where the toxicity Toriyama talked about is brought to the forefront, but I don't think that's "good enough" without him also being a saiyan and looking just like Goku, so that brings us to a kind of "Turles but better executed" villain. The main issue with that is that it's not Goku, it's just a doppelganger. Is that gonna be accepted? I'm not really sure. Maybe.

A possible idea I came up with is to introduce something that could be called the Dark Mirror or something like that, basically an evil magic mirror with a will of its own which manages to capture an unsuspecting Goku, trap him in a mirror world, and replace him with an evil version of himself in the main world. Goku would be going around in a mirror world where everyone is backwards except for him (mirrored physically, but also with evil Krillin and good Frieza, for example), and he'd be trying to solve his situation there, while the evil mirror Goku would be wreaking havoc in the main world and clashing with Vegeta and the others. You could also get Goku vs Mirror Goku out of this by writing it so that Goku is able to break out of the mirror world on his own. I'm kinda spitballing, I haven't developed the idea much. Maybe the motivation is that from the mirror's point of view, the mirror world is the real one and the real world is an abomination that needs to be destroyed, I don't know. It's an alternative concept, at least.

[super michael]

In Xiaolin Showdown if a person doesn't use both

Spoiler:

Ying Yo-Yo and Yang Yo-Yo together, the user personality would change. If the user is evil they would turn good, while if the user is good they would turn evil.

In Yu-Gi-Oh GX when Yudai

Spoiler:

fused with Yubel, that purified Yubel soul to be good.

[Zebra]

The whole concept of a bad guy who looks just like a good guy (evil twins, doppelgangers, lookalikes, etc) is unoriginal. That's one of the laziest ways you can come up with an antagonist, making them look like one of the good guys. The entire appeal is surface level and superficial; a character truly stands out not through their appearance, but through their characterization, actions, personality, etc.

Gokuu Black is only popular because he's a bad guy who looks like Gokuu. Zamasu himself isn't very popular; not only does the V-Jump poll show this, but so does the 2021 Viz poll:
https://www.viz.com/blog/posts/dragon-b ... s-aug-2021

Gokuu Black at No.4. Zamasu at No.14 (and the poll organizer stupidly left Piccolo out, so Zamasu should really be at No.15).

One might say, "Well, that's just because Gokuu Black and Zamasu were counted as separate characters, which split the vote" but when one is significantly more popular than the other, the less popular one clearly isn't that popular. Take the worldwide poll last year:
https://db1.dragon-ball-official.com/en/

Future Trunks is at No.4, whereas Present Trunks is all the way down at No.34. All the joke votes aside, it's not wrong to claim that Future Trunks is the only version of Trunks that most people care about. Present Trunks is clearly nowhere near as popular as Future Trunks, just as Zamasu is clearly nowhere near as popular as Gokuu Black.

Take away the "evil Gokuu" angle, and you're left with a villain who's only around as popular as Moro. This trope was already done with Turless, anyway, and body switching was already done with Ginyuu-Gokuu. What's the point of doing it again, this time with some whiny brat god?

Whether it's a bad guy switching bodies with Gokuu (Gokuu Black), or a bad guy who looks like Gokuu for no real reason (Turless), or an alternate Gokuu from another universe or timeline, or an evil clone, it doesn't matter. As long as he gets his own recolor transformation and beats people up, kids will flock to it.

But it's not like you need to come up with a "fake Gokuu" or a "lookalike Gokuu" to impress children. You could just have the real Gokuu get corrupted; make him kick ass in a new transformation, and you'll sell plenty of toys all the same. Better than coming up with a doppelganger-type character; those are always lazy.

Well, first things first: Goku's early temperament suggests he never would've been genuinely "evil", even without Earth's influence – just more wild, and certainly no worse than his father. It's obviously equally difficult to imagine a circumstance that would turn him evil of his own volition.

That's just because Toriyama retconned Burdack and the Saiyans as a whole to not be so evil.

In the original manga, Gokuu would've grown up to be just like Vegeeta, Raditz, Nappa, etc if he hadn't hit his head. And all three of them were pretty evil.

The best way was already done, for better or worse.

How is Gokuu Black any better than Turless or Ginyuu-Gokuu? They enjoyed fighting, too.

Having "our" Goku become directly evil is one of those things the writers are never gonna do.

They didn't have to go all the way through with it. Gokuu could've just been corrupted by some supernatural force and struggle to regain control of himself. He can turn Super Saiyan Pink or whatever and beat up the other Z Fighters before coming back to his senses. You don't actually need to have Gokuu, or anyone who looks like Gokuu, killing innocent people. Vegeeta didn't kill anyone in the Saiyan arc (besides that one Saibaiman), but that didn't stop him from becoming popular enough for Toriyama to change his mind about Gokuu killing him off.

If the corrupted Gokuu has to kill people, it can just be bad guys in a merciless manner that Gokuu normally wouldn't act in. Like Dark Jak from Jak 2, and Dark Sonic from Sonic X: https://youtu.be/AqpqzHgH6Wk?feature=shared

Imagine that's Gokuu turning into Super Saiyan Rose and killing a bunch of evil grunts. Then, he kicks Vegeeta, Piccolo, Gohan, Future Trunks, Gotenks, No.17, No.18, Boo, Freeza, Hit, Cabbe, Kefla, Frost, Jiren, etc's asses all at once before coming back to his senses, converting Super Saiyan Rose into a stronger version of Super Saiyan Blue (like Ultra Supervillain Quelled from Xenoverse 2's final DLC).

So, instead of "Evil Gokuu", it's more like "Dark Gokuu" or "Berserk Gokuu". The latter was already done with Pseudo Super Saiyan in the Lord Slug movie, but this time, Gokuu's also attacking his own allies. Come to think of it, that happened in Super DBH:
https://youtu.be/1GiZCQUKOUw?is=2lq7VtdkD71oIstN
https://youtu.be/w603Z8q4OhY?is=MOeDgF6O6Ly2KIW2

[Peach]

Goku can’t consciously turn evil or cruel because that’s just not who he is.

Unless it’s a spell, mind control, amnesia and reverting to Saiyan programming, or a power so great his mind breaks, he’s probably not going to be corrupted.

Maybe they could do something where he continues to endanger lives because he wants to fight strong people, thinking he can handle it and become a heel so to speak like he was in the preliminary match for the Tournament of Power. But that’s also becoming a bit out of character since Goku has been maturing, learning humility, becoming humble, learning to be a grandfather, and putting his trust in the next generation.

[Zebra]

Goku can’t consciously turn evil or cruel because that’s just not who he is.

Unless it’s a spell, mind control, amnesia and reverting to Saiyan programming, or a power so great his mind breaks, he’s probably not going to be corrupted.

So, why not just have him be corrupted by a spell, mind control, amnesia, supernatural power, etc then?

Fans have always been fascinated by the "Evil Gokuu" concept since way before Gokuu Black, but no one was ever asking for Gokuu to literally choose to become evil.

[WittyUsername]

I would’ve said that the best way to do Evil Goku would be to have a version of Goku who never hit his head as baby, but then I realized that’s basically what Tullece is supposed to represent.

Also, post Minus, the idea that Goku would’ve been especially evil without his head injury doesn’t hold up quite as well. Sure, Bardock wasn’t exactly a peaceful guy himself, but he was shown to be less ruthless than what you’d expect from a Saiyan, especially according to the Granolah arc, and the implication is that Goku takes after his parents. Even Goku being wild and unruly before hitting his head could easily be read as him lashing out because he misses his parents.

On the subject of Goku Black, if I recall, a common theory at the time was that he was Future Goku who was somehow brought back to life and corrupted. People even cited that moment of him gripping his chest in pain as evidence. That maybe could’ve been an interesting concept that would’ve given an extra layer to him destroying Future Trunks’ world and murdering Bulma in cold blood.

[JulieYBM]

I'm not a fan of the "race is naturally evil" thing in fiction, especially not when we're dealing with nominally human-appearing characters like the Saiyans. General undercooked storytelling aside, I like that the Dragon Ball Super: Broly telling of Son Goku's origin shows us a Bardock who was raised up through the Vegetan society and eventually came to the realization of the hollowness of his way of life so far. I think that provides a far richer tapestry for character arcs to explore.

Which is all to say, should we do 'evil' Goku, it's far more interesting to tell that story in a way where he is simply raised with ill intent.

What does that story look like?

Do Bardock and Gine raise him and the battlefield itself helps guide Goku away from Bardock's own misgivings about how empty life is under King Vegeta III's rule?

Is Goku raised by a different Saiyan for some reason? Does Paragus somehow take him and raise him as Broly's brother so that Broly has a peer to grow up with and better spur him to grow in ways that only a peer can?

Perhaps Great King Cold gets bored and decides to raise Goku as a side hobby in his retirement, teaching him the ways of galactic conquest so that Freeza will never grow complacent?

Or perhaps, once arriving on Earth, Adjutant Black discovers Goku and recognizes his unusual power, so he takes this strange boy as his son to later aide in his career in the military industrial complex? That would be really interesting as a story, I think, given how much Black felt that Supreme Commander Red was a shallow bastard who squandered the lives of his soldiers.

[Zebra]

Future Gokuu being corrupted would've been a more logical than some random Kaiou(shin) stealing Gokuu's body. But the time travel BS is too convoluted.

The simplest option would've just been giving Gokuu an evil counterpart in Universe 6 (or they could've just canonized Turless and make him from Universe 6. But I guess it's better for him to share the same name as Gokuu. Granted, Freeza and Frost, Broly and Kale, etc don't share names, so maybe just canonizing Turless is better). Whereas the Saiyans in that universe are mostly good, Gokuu's counterpart is a notorious criminal who travels to Universe 7 in search of powerful opponents to fight. Like the main Gokuu, he was born as Kakarott, but he adopts the name Son Gokuu after being called that upon arriving on Universe 7's Earth.

Also, post Minus, the idea that Goku would’ve been especially evil without his head injury doesn’t hold up quite as well. Sure, Bardock wasn’t exactly a peaceful guy himself, but he was shown to be less ruthless than what you’d expect from a Saiyan, especially according to the Granolah arc, and the implication is that Goku takes after his parents. Even Goku being wild and unruly before hitting his head could easily be read as him lashing out because he misses his parents.

That didn't stop Raditz from being evil.

They may not inherently be evil, but anyone growing up around Vegeeta and Nappa is gonna be badly influenced by them.

[WittyUsername]

I'm not a fan of the "race is naturally evil" thing in fiction, especially not when we're dealing with nominally human-appearing characters like the Saiyans. General undercooked storytelling aside, I like that the Dragon Ball Super: Broly telling of Son Goku's origin shows us a Bardock who was raised up through the Vegetan society and eventually came to the realization of the hollowness of his way of life so far. I think that provides a far richer tapestry for character arcs to explore.

Which is all to say, should we do 'evil' Goku, it's far more interesting to tell that story in a way where he is simply raised with ill intent.

What does that story look like?

Do Bardock and Gine raise him and the battlefield itself helps guide Goku away from Bardock's own misgivings about how empty life is under King Vegeta III's rule?

Is Goku raised by a different Saiyan for some reason? Does Paragus somehow take him and raise him as Broly's brother so that Broly has a peer to grow up with and better spur him to grow in ways that only a peer can?

Perhaps Great King Cold gets bored and decides to raise Goku as a side hobby in his retirement, teaching him the ways of galactic conquest so that Freeza will never grow complacent?

Or perhaps, once arriving on Earth, Adjutant Black discovers Goku and recognizes his unusual power, so he takes this strange boy as his son to later aide in his career in the military industrial complex? That would be really interesting as a story, I think, given how much Black felt that Supreme Commander Red was a shallow bastard who squandered the lives of his soldiers.

I definitely am not a fan of the “this race is naturally evil” thing in fiction either, which is partly why I had a problem with Frost turning out to be evil. On a similar note, I also don’t like the idea that a race is naturally good either, which is an issue I have when it comes to the Namekians. There’s some rather uncomfortable implications in that idea that Akira Toriyama clearly didn’t put much thought into.

When it comes to Bardock though, I can’t say I’m fond of the idea of Goku’s parents being some of the nicer Saiyans, since it makes Goku seem too special. I’m fine with characters like Tarble and Broly being gentle “weirdos” who mean no harm, but for Goku, I much prefer the idea that him being good was a completely unforeseen accident.

By the way, I do like your idea of Officer Black or some other villainous character raising Goku. Maybe Tao and Crane could raise him to be an assassin. A Goku who’s trained in the Crane style would be neat.

[Zebra]

Honestly, what's the point of coming up with another evil Gokuu lookalike instead of just bringing back the one we already had? They canonized Broly. Why couldn't they have done the same with Turless?

[WittyUsername]

To be frank, Tullece isn’t nearly as popular as Broly. He has his fans, but even prior to Goku Black, he had been largely overshadowed by Bardock.

[Mr Baggins]

That's just because Toriyama retconned Burdack and the Saiyans as a whole to not be so evil.

No, that's because we got post-serial information on the culture/history of a race that was actually very sparse in the source material. Newer revelations don't become "retcons" just because they contradict your presuppositions.

Vegeta was just an asshole even by Saiyan standards, and that attitude naturally extended to the people in his circle like Nappa and Raditz. Pretty straightforward stuff.

How is Gokuu Black any better than Turless or Ginyuu-Gokuu? They enjoyed fighting, too.

You didn't read what I said.

I described what the best way was, then gave an example of that in Goku Black. I didn't say that Ginyu or Tullece couldn't also be examples of the same general method.

I'd argue a brainwashed Goku also fits into that category since it's effectively the same thing psychologically. The only way to believably turn Goku evil is to make him Not-Goku.

[JulieYBM]

I definitely am not a fan of the “this race is naturally evil” thing in fiction either, which is partly why I had a problem with Frost turning out to be evil. On a similar note, I also don’t like the idea that a race is naturally good either, which is an issue I have when it comes to the Namekians. There’s some rather uncomfortable implications in that idea that Akira Toriyama clearly didn’t put much thought into.

Ooh, yeah, I definitely agree on the Namekians, too. You're absolutely right about the uncomfortable implications of that, too. It's the sort of comment that really should have been pushed back on.

When it comes to Bardock though, I can’t say I’m fond of the idea of Goku’s parents being some of the nicer Saiyans, since it makes Goku seem too special. I’m fine with characters like Tarble and Broly being gentle “weirdos” who mean no harm, but for Goku, I much prefer the idea that him being good was a completely unforeseen accident.

I know that I'm a broken record on the topic, but at least with regards to Bardock, I don't think his character arc really makes Goku 'special', at least insofar as what I recall from Dragon Ball Super: Broly. I think it works as a story that illustrates that Goku's path isn't some biological determination, nor is it perfect and linear. Bardock remains someone who had done terrible, horrible things. He dies while melancholically reflecting on whether or not a different way of life is possible and—whatever good it might say about him as a person and a parent—he sends Goku off to see if this conflict he feels within him has any real meat to the bone. Does the hope of a parent for a different, more fulfilling way of life make Goku 'special' as a character or even as 'just a Saiyan'? Let's say that it does: is Goku less interesting as a main character for this specialness? I think that, if anything, it kind of goes to show that Goku really needs to have more internal conflict shown, because he's historically shown to be a really shitty friend, father and husband and a good way to begin to remedy this behavior would be to tie into Bardock's character arc during that Broly arc.

I think Dragon Ball Super: Broly would have really benefitted by taking a pause during the inter-dimensional rift scene to have Goku—through the eyes of Gogeta—experience the Bardock thread of the prologue scene. Really, just beginning the movie with Goku and friends learning about Freeza approaching the planet again would have been a far better opening to the film because then the latter half of the film could have have the flashbacks help break up the action and emphasize the emotions transpiring throughout the film. There's a scene about an hour into the film where Broly has been knocked under water by Super Saiyan God Vegeta and I can't help by imagine cutting to Broly's sides of the flashbacks. Like, imagine cutting to the King Vegeta stuff when Vegeta is in a similar predicament? Or cutting to Paragus' flashbacks as he watches Broly being defeated or is dying after being blasted by Freeza? I think that alone would better tie things together cohesively and emphasized that there was more going on here.

I think it would have also given Goku some sort of internal arc throughout the film. I think about all of his scenes throughout the film and it just does not feel like he's an actual character there at all.

By the way, I do like your idea of Officer Black or some other villainous character raising Goku. Maybe Tao and Crane could raise him to be an assassin. A Goku who’s trained in the Crane style would be neat.

The fun thing about it is that Goku could really be raised by any of those characters and have different approaches to his arc. It all ultimately kind of boils down to what the overall narrative of a potential "story about a version of Goku who is a nasty guy" is going to be. The possibilities are basically without limit if you commit to one specific take and go with it.

I wound up going with Black because I felt like Black had the most interesting potential to be expanded on, while also giving Goku a role within the Red Ribbon Army where he would live the opposite kind of social life than the regular Goku: this would be a Goku raised around a lot of people, instead of being raised alone in the mountains or in some martial arts school. "Who would Goku be if he knew how to live in around others from a younger age?" Is something that is a bit easier to explore than with having him raised by some of the other early Dragon Ball antagonists. Or maybe not even that! It just depends on how you want to write a story lol