What would've been the best way to do an "Evil Gokuu" arc?

[Zebra]

That's just because Toriyama retconned Burdack and the Saiyans as a whole to not be so evil.

No, that's because we got post-serial information on the culture/history of a race that was actually very sparse in the source material.

It wasn't sparse. We already saw in the Burdack TV special that most Saiyans were evil. Even DBS doesn't contradict this fact; Birus noted they were a mostly evil people that deserved to be wiped out, which is why he gave Freeza permission to destroy them. They took pleasure in slaughtering the Cerealians and Namekkians on Planet Cereal, too.

Toriyama simply retconned Burdack to be one of the very few exceptions, and came up with Gine on top of that. Even then, he didn't bother accounting for the fact Burdack is clearly wearing his outfit from the TV special in Freeza's flashback, which appears in the original manga. The original Burdack didn't bat an eye when committing genocide, nor did he really care about his sons. He was a brute like most other Saiyans.

Vegeeta was the rare type of sociopath who had no qualms about slaughtering his allies once they stopped being useful to him, but that doesn’t change that the race as a whole relished in carnage and genocide.

To be frank, Tullece isn’t nearly as popular as Broly. He has his fans, but even prior to Goku Black, he had been largely overshadowed by Bardock.

Sure, but even though Burdack was an evil person overall, he wasn't an antagonist in his story. Freeza and his men were the antagonists; Burdack was trying to save his own people and avenge his fallen crewmates, so he was always bordering on being an antihero. No one really thinks of Burdack when they think of an "evil Gokuu lookalike"; evilness was never his appeal.

That said, both Turless and Burdack are edgy Gokuu lookalikes, so they're similar enough that a comparison can still be made. And Burdack has always been the more popular of the two by far, so it's not wrong to dismiss Turless as a forgettable proto-Burdack in a sense.

[Mr Baggins]

It wasn't sparse. We already saw in the Burdack TV special that most Saiyans were evil.

This marks the second time now that you didn't read or address what I said. The source material is Toriyama's manga.

The Saiyans weren't mustache twirling supervillains, they were pirate mercs doing a job and all of that was reflected in their culture; camaraderie and all. And as you just conceded, Vegeta was a sociopathic dick among even them.

I don't need to belabor this point or add anything further.

[Zebra]

It wasn't sparse. We already saw in the Burdack TV special that most Saiyans were evil.

This marks the second time now that you didn't read or address what I said. The source material is Toriyama's manga.

And that source material directly references a scene from the Burdack TV special, implying it was part of the manga's continuity at the time.

Even if it arguably wasn't (a stretch, but I digress), there are enough statements in the manga that make clear the Saiyans were a mostly evil race without any ambiguity.

The Saiyans weren't mustache twirling supervillains, they were pirate mercs doing a job and all of that was reflected in their culture; camaraderie and all.

Commiting genocide is exactly what supervillains do. It being their "job" or "culture" doesn't make their deeds any less heinous. They're said to be evil by several characters, in and out of the manga, and there's no reason not to think almost every dead Saiyan is burning in Hell.

Even Vegeeta was revealed to care somewhat for his fellow Saiyans, as Gokuu noted that he was upset about Freeza killing them (although he was more bothered by Freeza using him). Despite caring somewhat for his people, though, Vegeeta was still very evil, as noted by several characters.

And as you just conceded, Vegeta was a sociopathic dick among even them.

Raditz and Nappa don't need to be as bad as Vegeeta to be plenty evil themselves. The fact they're both in Hell speaks for itself. If Gokuu grew up to slaughter entire populations like they did, then he'd be evil and that's not up for any debate. Having camaraderie with his fellow mass murderers isn't going to make him not evil.

[kemuri07]

Obviously, we only have a single appearance in the original manga, which is likely why the special was the go-to "official story" for so many people (including myself).

I've been upfront about not liking what I view as a "softening" of Bardock. I understand the point of wanting a more nuance take on the Saiyans by not showing them as "mustache-twirling baddies", but I don't think how Toriyama actually went about it is any better. I do not like either Minus and (especially) Super's interpretation of Bardock because it makes him a far less compelling character. Part of the reason why Bardock: Father of Goku remains such an iconic part of Dragon Ball's legacy is because Bardock is a villain protagonist-- with an emphasis on the villain part. The protagonist part only really happens because he's literally cursed with seeing the future and Frieza is a far more horrific monster.

Do I think these things could be expanded upon to make Bardock a more nuanced character? Sure. But making him a carbon copy of Jor-El from Superman is not the way to do it.

[Zebra]

The Burdack TV special is iconic simply because people thought Burdack's one-man battle against Freeza and his men was cool and touching. Note "A Final, Solitary Battle" in the subtitle. All by himself, Burdack attempted to avenge his crew and save his race, which struck a chord in viewers.

His villainy isn't much of a focus, and the whole thing with him getting an ability from the Kanassans that lets him see the future was really tacky. It's not necessary to Burdack's arc or journey.

[angeldreamZ004]

I think it depends a lot honestly, in my view, what really sets Z and Super Bardock apart is the fact that one has a mystical background, while the other one is more down to earth.
"One Man Battle Against Freeza" that was only possible because of the future vision, the whole story of the special revolves around that, the tension, Bardock's desperation to prevent the destruction of Planet Vegeta, it's only because of that, it's necessary for his journey, the many scenes where he foresees the future aren't there for nothing, why he started to care about his son.
The other Bardock works towards his suspicion, you'll notice how it's clearly a story revolved in mystery and conspiracy by going through his "trilogy" of Minus - Super Broly - Granolah Arc, the latter especially feeling like a "spy movie story".

I think people focus too much on characters or writing and forget how the creative background and ideas behind those stories are even more important for building these narratives, ignoring this when criticizing or simply talking about fictional works is something I just can't undertand. Remove those elements from the two respective stories and I personally don't really see that much difference between the two Bardocks (and same goes for the rest of the Saiyajins), the concepts Toriyama and Toei decided to work with were very important to materialize these two different interpretations of the character and his story. The one with the ideas you find more interesting will be your pick, not being interesting for you doesn't mean it's bad or the "wrong way".

I personally love when mystical elements are included in a story, so I definitely prefer what Toei did in the TV special, it works like the old stories told by a individual that everyone thinks is absurd, so that individual is isolated, which is what happens to that version of Bardock.
but I like Toriyama's version for the Revival Era as well, just think it's less interesting for not having anything very crazy but it has its values too.

[Zebra]

"Seeing the future" isn't necessary in a story about someone trying to save their race. Doduria and his men would've ambushed Burdack's crew regardless, and as long as Burdack finds them dead and hears that Freeza's planning to destroy Planet Vegeeta, he would've rushed to save the Saiyans all the same.

[angeldreamZ004]

It was a piece to help him in the puzzle. First that gaining the ability is what led to him falling asleep. If it wasn't for that, he would've went to Kanassa at the same time as his crew and would've probably been killed alongside them.

Indeed hearing what Toma said would still make him aware of what would happen regardless, but the fact he had such dooming visions was only extra weight to make him believe it by connecting the dots.
I know it doesn't make a difference later as still no one decides to help him, but if you really want to capture what the story is about it is about doom and nearly no hope, which is what the very first vision does, tells Bardock that his race is doomed to face destruction. Yet the vision also helped him positively by making him care about his son as it told him he would be the one to defeat Freeza, something that indeed ended up happening. Without the vision Bardock wouldn't care about him, he screams his name and smiles before dying because of it.

It's not only about someone trying to save their planet from a dictator, but also about someone believing til the end that there's still hope, that a survivor of that planet will avenge it against that dictator. That last part wouldn't be possible without the vision ability, the second half of the special has Dragon Ball flashbacks with Goku growing up because of that.

(Super tried to introduce a mystical element like this too with the Granola arc, by having Bardock wish for Goku and Raditz to survive while growing up, but it's different)

[Zebra]

It was a piece to help him in the puzzle. First that gaining the ability is what led to him falling asleep.

He could've just been injured normally, so he wouldn't be able to leave with his crew.

Indeed hearing what Toma said would still make him aware of what would happen regardless, but the fact he had such dooming visions was only extra weight to make him believe it by connecting the dots.

Sounds superfluous to me.

I know it doesn't make a difference later as still no one decides to help him, but if you really want to capture what the story is about it is about doom and nearly no hope, which is what the very first vision does, tells Bardock that his race is doomed to face destruction. Yet the vision also helped him positively by making him care about his son as it told him he would be the one to defeat Freeza, something that indeed ended up happening. Without the vision Bardock wouldn't care about him, he screams his name and smiles before dying because of it.

That's the only redeeming aspect of the "see the future" plot. But he doesn't need to see the future to have premonitions or visions.

[angeldreamZ004]

He could've just been injured normally, so he wouldn't be able to leave with his crew.

It would have to be through different means or from different people then, because they were superior to the Kanassaseijins.

But he doesn't need to see the future to have premonitions or visions.

It would still led to the same plot anyways, like Bardock for some reason being the only Saiyajin to have such ability. Well my point was more explaning the presence of such concept in the story, but if you really keep imagining a different take without it it's really far from impossible, but Dragon Ball has a lot of that and you can imagine countless scenarios where certain creative decisions wouldn't be necessary, especially when it comes to Toei.

[Zebra]

He could've just been injured normally, so he wouldn't be able to leave with his crew.

It would have to be through different means or from different people then, because they were superior to the Kanassaseijins.

That last Kanassan got the drop on Burdack pretty easily.

But he doesn't need to see the future to have premonitions or visions.

It would still led to the same plot anyways, like Bardock for some reason being the only Saiyajin to have such ability.

It's a common trope for someone to see a vision of the future just as they're dying.

[kemuri07]

Honestly, I have no real idea what you’re really arguing against, Zebra.

Giving Bardock the ability to see the future works on a thematic level. 1. It’s a literal punishment for his transgressions in that he is forced to witness the inevitability: the destruction of the Saiyan race. 2. And likely the most important, he is allowed one final vision in that he realizes that his sacrifice is not in vain. That the very child he sent off would be the one to defeat Frieza.

Like sure, I guess you could just have the plot be that Bardock overhears what the plan is. And I guess you can merely invoke “anime bullshit” and have Bardock randomly have a vision about his own son. Technically, you can do a lot of things—doesn’t necessarily make it better. What the curse does do is lend the story a sense of poetic irony that wouldn’t be there if Bardock didn’t receive the visions, and I think it’s because of that Bardock: The Father of Goku has a very different vibe than the rest of Dragonball.

[WittyUsername]

Bardock being granted the ability to see into the future ties into the greater theme of the special, which is that you can’t fight fate. Bardock is tortured with the knowledge of what’s in store for planet Vegeta and desperately tries to stop it, but completely fails to do so. It’s not dissimilar to the kinds of stories you’d hear about in Greek myths.

[Zebra]

Just comes across as trying too hard to be deep to me. It's simpler to just have Burdack die without seeing any visions. Why make this mass murdering scumbag out to be tragic, anyway? He killed people, and now he dies with his own people who did the same things as him. Just have him die like a dog, and if he must try saving his kind, just make him die in agony. Making it all the way to face Freeza after beating a bunch of grunts is enough of a solace for him.

Also, Burdack didn't send Gokuu off in the TV special.

[kemuri07]

Just comes across as trying too hard to be deep to me. It's simpler to just have Burdack die without seeing any visions. Why make this mass murdering scumbag out to be tragic, anyway? He killed people, and now he dies with his own people who did the same things as him. Just have him die like a dog, and if he must try saving his kind, just make him die in agony. Making it all the way to face Freeza after beating a bunch of grunts is enough of a solace for him.

Also, Burdack didn't send Gokuu off in the TV special.

what the heck, dude.

[Grimlock]

Thirty-six years of Bardock's existence, and people still trying to strip him and his TV Special of something that makes them special. He will never be "some random grunt" as he's the father of the protagonist and the TV Special will forever be a masterpiece for a (lot of) reason(s). You may want to give up on your fever dream to make either or both of them be "random stuff", it's a battle you lose before you even started.

[JulieYBM]

Zebra does not make coherent posts, just block him and save yourself the trouble

[Zebra]

Just comes across as trying too hard to be deep to me. It's simpler to just have Burdack die without seeing any visions. Why make this mass murdering scumbag out to be tragic, anyway? He killed people, and now he dies with his own people who did the same things as him. Just have him die like a dog, and if he must try saving his kind, just make him die in agony. Making it all the way to face Freeza after beating a bunch of grunts is enough of a solace for him.

Also, Burdack didn't send Gokuu off in the TV special.

what the heck, dude.

No matter how cool Burdack looked fighting Freeza's men by himself, he was still just a mass murdering scumbag. He got his karma, so what is there to really feel here? The point I'm making is that the visions are unnecessary when he doesn't deserve to be made into a tragic figure.

[super michael]

Just comes across as trying too hard to be deep to me. It's simpler to just have Burdack die without seeing any visions. Why make this mass murdering scumbag out to be tragic, anyway? He killed people, and now he dies with his own people who did the same things as him. Just have him die like a dog, and if he must try saving his kind, just make him die in agony. Making it all the way to face Freeza after beating a bunch of grunts is enough of a solace for him.

Also, Burdack didn't send Gokuu off in the TV special.

what the heck, dude.

No matter how cool Burdack looked fighting Freeza's men by himself, he was still just a mass murdering scumbag. He got his karma, so what is there to really feel here? The point I'm making is that the visions are unnecessary when he doesn't deserve to be made into a tragic figure.

Freeza got revived not once but twice, even though is evil. Where is his karma for all the evil that he did? Freeza is still evil, he hasn't changed at all. There is nothing stopping Bardock from getting a second chance at life.

Vegeta did many evil things long before he appeared in DBZ, then in the Saiyan Saga, Namek Saga, Cell Saga and Buu Saga he did many evil things, yet he got a lot of chances.

[Zebra]

Thirty-six years of Bardock's existence, and people still trying to strip him and his TV Special of something that makes them special. He will never be "some random grunt" as he's the father of the protagonist

Ironically, it was this same "Gokuu's father must be special" thinking that led to Toriyama retconning the TV special with Minus. Because he's Gokuu's father, it was decided that he shouldn't be evil, which led to Toriyama turning him into the family man we see in Minus and DBS. I always felt it would've been better for Gokuu's father to just be regular low class trash, because it makes Gokuu's own accomplishments more impressive. In both the TV special and Minus, Gokuu is made into this prophetic figure of destiny, which I always found lame.

The TV special was never a masterpiece. How does getting struck in the head somehow grant you psychic powers, anyway? It's overly convenient, and I prefer how Minus simplified things so that Burdack rebelled just by figuring out Freeza's plan on his own. Dragon Ball doesn't have to feel like a Greek tragedy, and it's not an uncommon opinion that Burdack's psychic powers were contrived. For all the flak Minus gets, it actually fixes some flaws from the TV special.

Why did Freeza let Gokuu's spacepod leave right before blowing up Planet Vegeeta? Minus smartly changed it so that Gokuu being sent away was secret and unplanned. What about all the other Saiyans that could've been out in space? Minus shows that Freeza took the time to call all of them back to Planet Vegeeta, leaving no questions about any possible scavengers. Raditz also appears in Minus instead of weirdly being left out like in the TV special.

The ending of the TV special with Gokuu being all happy when found by Grandpa Gohan clashes with the manga, too; Gokuu was supposed to be wild before hitting his head. And the idea of sending babies to outer space never made any sense; how the hell is an infant supposed to know about the Saiyans' mission to exterminate life on planets and return to Planet Vegeeta later on? Gokuu being sent away as a kid in Minus makes more sense.